chzchan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Just after some experimentation, I find myself not able to do more than one j.D in the air while applying pressure. Are you only allowed to use j.D once without touching back to the ground?
BatousaiJ Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Only one j.D per being in the air. I think that's been that way all the way from CS1 till now, actually.
chzchan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I never noticed until now for some reason. I was trying to do 5B > 6C > j.CC > j.D > j.C > j.CC > j.D > j.CC but all I got was 5B > 6C > j.CC > j.D > j.C > j.CC. Probably because I rarely ever use multi jump in pressure against anyone who isn't Tager. Welp. Another question if anyone else bothers to look here again: Is it possible to hit with the latter active frames of 5B and does that actually make a difference recovery-wise if you charge cancel? I am curious about this because 5B was given more active frames (and recovery) in Extend. Also here's a bonus question: Would you sacrifice 3 active frames to make 5B +1 on charge cancel?
Airk Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 As far as I know, where you hit with the active frames makes NO difference to charge cancel, because when you charge cancel, you are cancelling the rest of your active frames, and your recovery, into the fix length recovery of a charge. So like 5B had 1 frame of recovery, it would still be the same -2 on charge cancel (and charge cancelling it would be stupid). This, incidentally, means that your followup question is sortof meaningless. The only way they could make 5B +1 on charge cancel would be to increase the blockstun it gives (or decrease minimum charge duration). Would I trade 3 active frames for 19 frames of blockstun? HELL YES I would. This would make lots of interesting stuff possible when you start thinking about other kinds of cancels.
Zouf Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Would I trade 3 active frames for 19 frames of blockstun? HELL YES I would. This would make lots of interesting stuff possible when you start thinking about other kinds of cancels. This needs to be debated imo :P Having 2 active frames only on 5B would be really awful and literally kill our already weak neutral. Wouldn't want that :D
chzchan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I don't think it would kill our neutral, but I am not 100% sure on how charge canceling actually works frame data calculation-wise. I guess I think I understand now, though. It really does only take attack level into account, so I am completely wrong in every way with what I am asking. I just did the calculation after Airk pointed it out. It really is just (blockstun) - (18f) is the charge cancel value. Whoops. They'd need to make it attack level 4 like 5CC or 6B in order to even get it to leave her at 0 frame advantage. Whatever I'm just going to keep dreaming that in 2.0 they do a stealth change that gives 2D 16f of recovery at the cost of a slightly slower charge rate or like no increased charge rate on cancel or some shit because that could also be adjusted. I guess that would be a blanket buff to all her normals, though I wouldn't mind.
Airk Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I don't think they want to do that; The problem with charge cancels is that there is basically no line between "You are negative on some stuff and even on others" and "You are even on some stuff and plus on others" and it's way too easy to end up with a character who can basically make EVERYTHING even or plus and have the dumbest pressure ever.
chzchan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Yeah I understand that. I guess they really shouldn't touch her charge cancel system.
TheGreatReptar Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Order Sol is plus on just about everything after charge canceling and his pressure is far from dumb because like in BB, the higher the attack level, the farther he gets pushed out. 2D>charge cancel is +3. 5H>CC is +5. He always gets pushed out so far that he'll always use some of that frame advantage pressing forward to get back in though. This is actually really similar to Tsubaki in CP. She gets pushed out really hard by barrier. Shaving 2 frames off charge canceling wouldn't make her pressure braindead at all, since 5CC>CC would still be the only move that's +, which would push her out really hard on barrier like it does now, and everything else would just be neutral so on IB she loses to mashing, loses to character's with 5 frame 5As, and trades with other jabs. Her pressure would still be worse than CS2 just because of pushback.
Errol Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Yeah, that's pretty much right. if you recall CS2. 22C was pretty much a straight neutral reset (+1). Same deal. 5b would be even on charge cancel. 10 frame startup, even on charge cancel. terumi 5b, 8 frame startup, +2. it would be a welcome buff. it's not 100% necessary but she needs something. Something could be anything though. I would like Held charge cancel to recover faster. when you release the button it takes about 10 frames to recover. this makes various things harder. regardless of duration of shortest charge, I would like it if when you have been charging you return to neutral like 5f after releasing the button, something like that.
chzchan Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 I'd actually really like that QOL change, but for the wrong reasons. It would make it so that even if I start choking during simply running my game I would still do flawless charge cancels. It would be pretty handy in netplay.
Airk Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 I'm not really sure what Errol is suggesting. Are you just looking for less recovery on charging? What is a 'held' charge cancel? I honestly think there is no reason for charging to have recovery pretty much at all, though I don't think changing the minimum duration is wise.
TheGreatReptar Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Charge not having recovery would be silly. That'd essentially make her charge animation after the minimum charge period be an equivalent to standing without the option to block, so letting go of D and holding up would make you jump instantly, letting go of D would let you instantly DP. Uhhh
Airk Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Yeah, I guess you're right. Allow me to adjust: No landing recovery on j.D.
Errol Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 as it stands even with 5f recovery you could be punished full screen by black hawk stinger for charging. recovery a bit faster after pressing the button would be welcome for various reasons. 0f is clearly dumb, but I think splitting the difference would be ok. landing recovery on j.D is dumb, but 5f landing recovery would make it rather workable. it's too rough at 9f. something like other chars options (4f landing recovery on jin j.c etc) would let her use it as an option and still have a chance at comboing.
TeeJay Posted September 25, 2014 Posted September 25, 2014 Random question: I hear people use the term game-plan a lot which seems a tiny bit ambiguous. Can someone give an example versus a Ragna? For instance, in the matchup, I try to use tk orbs and late air orbs and ground orbs to slow down his approach while I fish for anti-airs and hits. I try to play grounded. I also try to bait and neutralize his DP. I may try to yomi air grabs if I catch a pattern with his death scythe. Other than that, I'm kind've just winging it. Is that too general or oversimplification?
Errol Posted September 26, 2014 Posted September 26, 2014 Well, yeah, it totally depends on the character. Probably normally refers to neutral the most, because you assume that on offense you want to kill them and on defense you want to get out or whatever. There's always yomi in whatever your gameplan is. So my general gameplan against Ragna would be to retreat and try to get some charge. And intercept him coming in, or retreat some more. Some part of the time I'll take the offensive right off the bat, to keep from being predictable. Depending on matchup I might decide to take the offensive after scoring a midscreen knockdown (immediately run without charge cancelling, or 22B whiff), or just try to get as much charge as possible. Characters with strong neutral, weaker defense like Nu, Valk, Litchi, Hazama, Mu, Koko I'm more likely to try to press the advantage. Characters with weaker neutral, but that piss on you with dumb risk:reward options on their wakeup, I'm more likely to return to neutral by charging to try to increase the reward of my later hits, so I can win on risk:reward. This is Hakumen, Azrael, Tager, Kagura, Ragna, etc. Gameplan is really just how you try to play against the character to win the most. Very simple.
TeeJay Posted September 26, 2014 Posted September 26, 2014 Ok, cool. I felt like it was a rhetorical and apprehensive question yet simultaneously needing a clear definition. Thanks. Random: I wonder how Valle's comments work in BB. He said (referring to Street Fighter) that learning player archetypes are more important than match-ups. I haven't thought much about the former honestly.
chzchan Posted September 26, 2014 Posted September 26, 2014 Wait so what is an archetype? Like the way they generally play as a person instead of a character?
TeeJay Posted September 26, 2014 Posted September 26, 2014 I think he was referring to characters in a more basic way. ie: aggressive, defensive, grapplers, blah blah. Specifically it was "Learning to beat the player archetype is more important than the char match up. Match ups are more predictable than styles of play." I guess he meant it in a way to approaching in a more fundamental way then 20-30-40+ individual match-ups. I was thinking of it regarding playing types of people though. I probably should stop posting lol.
Airk Posted September 26, 2014 Posted September 26, 2014 While I think Mr. Valle's comment is still true to some extent in games like BB (For example, people who are comfortable blocking vs people who are all about getting the hell out of there ASAP, and people who almost always tech 'honestly' rather than going for quick wakeup stuff etc.) I think it's LESS true than it is in Street Fighter simply because there's so MUCH difference between characters in this game, than the matchups have greater importance. Even if you've never fought against Yun before, you can still fake it to some extent based on experience with other dive-kick pressure characters, especially if you can get a read on the player. OTOH, if you've never fought Azrael before, good luck. :P
chzchan Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 If a character has normals/sepcials that are projectiles with strike properties, does 214X's invuln allow you to go through it? For instance, with Terumi, I always get hit out of using 214D's homing to close distance by his 5D.
Monarch Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Was playing a Tsubaki mirror the other day, and I'd like to know if 2A can beat out or low profile 5B.
Mcgreag Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Was playing a Tsubaki mirror the other day, and I'd like to know if 2A can beat out or low profile 5B. Looking at the hitboxes it seems like it should not be possible. The vertical hurtbox for 2A is slightly higher than the vertical hitbox of 5B. Of course 2A does have faster startup so if you hit them at the exact same time it will win.
Airk Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Nice work there Mcgreag, but I think if you changed the spacing, 2A would actually win - the hitbox around her arm would extend upwards enough to hit the hurtbox on the wing, but there's no corresponding hurtbox on 2A to get hit by 5B. That said, it would be a miracle of spacing and timing for this to work.
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