Greater Force Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I see. As a player who can't ever seem to open up a good defender, I (unfortunately) greatly appreciate the buffed AoA (although Chie's sounds broken). I suck at mashing it out though, so I'll just have to wait till January to get away with the it by always holding for guaranteed 6+ hits lol.
TheHitmarkersPro Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I see. As a player who can't ever seem to open up a good defender, I (unfortunately) greatly appreciate the buffed AoA (although Chie's sounds broken). I suck at mashing it out though, so I'll just have to wait till January to get away with the it by always holding for guaranteed 6+ hits lol. You do realize we would get the update 2015 June or later, not January, because of the 6-month exclusivity deal with arcades?
Greater Force Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Well... heh that makes the patch a bit pointless for consoles considering by then, XRD and CP2.0 will be in full force. I hope, ASW considers porting sooner rather than later for a dead game. Thanks for that info, I wasn't aware of that.
TheHitmarkersPro Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Well... heh that makes the patch a bit pointless for consoles considering by then, XRD and CP2.0 will be in full force. I hope, ASW considers porting sooner rather than later for a dead game. Thanks for that info, I wasn't aware of that. Don't take it as 100% fact, but it's definitely going to be arcade only a while. June was just my speculation as it's usually a 6-month exclusivity for the arcades to profit.
mixedmethods Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I see. As a player who can't ever seem to open up a good defender, I (unfortunately) greatly appreciate the buffed AoA (although Chie's sounds broken). I suck at mashing it out though, so I'll just have to wait till January to get away with the it by always holding for guaranteed 6+ hits lol. ("You" gets thrown out generically in this post; it's not directed just at you, Force!) There are times when AoAs are good if someone is blocking your pressure! But you (this one is specific!) read Colpevole's post on GameFaqs, so you know what I'm going to say next: there are options other than "he's downbacking, let's do an AoA" that are much safer. As a general rule, AoAs are very unsafe, so they're high-risk/high-reward, as mashing the hits should be an easy 2.3ish? 2.5ish?k, not counting the combo after the C or D finisher. The rule about mashing (which I am not that strict about enforcing; it's more to curb "that was three six-hit AoAs in one round" habits before they start -- it's easier to unlearn bad habits by never letting them form in the first place) is there to discourage exactly the kind of weak, panicky pressure that Fortune described. Generally, the defender is considered to be at a disadvantage, and the longer someone has to block, the more likely you are to bait a response you can punish. Then there's other factours: who has the lifelead? Is this match point? Who has meter? Burst? If I'm Shab and I'm sitting on 100 meter while in Awakening, I want to get to Titano. This means I have to (1) block and throw tech at your pleasure; (2) determine what, if any, resources I should spend (50 for a Guard Cancel, which means I can't do a Titano + Brutal Impact sequence, so I'll want to get that 50 back if possible; Burst, which could fuck me over, particularly if this isn't match point and I'd rather hold it, assuming Burst is an option at all); (3) attempt a reversal (DP, super) or try to poke out at the risk of being CH'd or FC'd, which, man, with only 8k health as Shab and 9k as Aigis, I do not want that; (4) juggle all of these decisions while reacting to your pressure (because I haven't fought a legit Marie, so I don't have all of Marie's info in my databank -- where you're safest in your strings, where you're baiting me, etc., whereas with other characters I don't even have to retrieve info for "this is a throw set-up, this leaves me neutral on block but I'll get stuffed if I try to poke out," and on and on because I've just ... learned it). Eventually, you internalise everyone's gatlings and learn to block on assumption, not raw reaction, but none of us are really at that point, short of player habits being an issue. In any event, that's ... a brief tour of the newbie blocking mindset: it's very cluttered. You are at advantage here, as long as you don't lose it and start doing really unsafe shit, because I'm the one juggling more risk-reward calculations while also blocking highs, lows, a standing low, and teching throws. But if you stick your butt out? Well, you just gave me a free (possibly meterless) escape, I will CH or FC you for the AoA attempt, and then the pain train starts. Obviously, there's still a place for AoAs, particularly if you're unpredictable with them, but some are more reactable than others due to start-up and animation. For example: Ken's has 32f of start-up, loses guardpoint just before the attack becomes active and is Fatal Recovery, so without Koro for cover or the meter for an OMC, Ken is going to really regret that AoA on block due to the fact that it's highly telegraphed. Of course, if Koro can cover the recovery, Ken is safe, but that means the AoA can't be mindless -- the player actually has to think about "wow, I could die for this" and think, since the risk is huge. Marie isn't the only character in the game with weak high-low; Ultimax favours stagger pressure, not standing overheads. But in a game where any confirm can go into 4k and the pace of rounds is fast, that's what makes stagger pressure so oppressive, in general and from certain characters in particular -- if I guess wrong, go for a reversal and get baited, or fail to block correctly, I may not live. (At least with the characters I play, who all sit at 9k and under HP.) As Shabrys, 2k is 25% of my health bar. If I'm near Awakening and stuck blocking, then the risk is even higher: if I get opened up and put in a Burst-safe combo, that's the game. There's a side issue with AoAs being much, much more viable in netplay, particularly in lag, due to input delay, along with the fact that Challenge Mode contains an AoA combo for everyone. Hey! It's a combo! You've practised it, so why not use it in a real match? Well, because the actual challenge is getting the AoA to hit your opponent. Additionally, since the C ender always Fatals, there's less incentive for players to actually complete the AoA (in Arena, you mashed the correct number of hits or bust), but doing only four hits of mash (AoA attack is one hit, mash is four, finisher is one = your standard 6 hit AoA) murders your damage, and it's unlikely you're going to get to hit your opponent with another AoA. Honestly, in lobbies, when fighting casuals, if I'm hit with an AoA, I always eat the combo rather than Burst immediately ("OMG I didn't block it it's going to be so much damage") because nine times out of ten, the combo is maybe 1k damage, usually less. And that's about when I stop treating my opponent as a serious threat, particularly since what happens next is ... another AoA, usually whiffed. When it's someone who does 16-18 hits of an AoA and actually lands the rest of the combo, I quickly regret the decision not to Burst and my weaksauce defence, but, yeah, that's something else to consider -- it's unlikely you're going to do multiple AoAs in a match, let alone a round. tl;dr AoAs aren't inherently bad and it's not the mash in particular that we care about but the tendency to fall back on AoA when someone blocks 5A > 2A > 5A once. Or blocks a jump in > 5A > 2A. Throws can become a bad habit as well, particularly since (until we get 2.0) the reward can be very low without meter or at certain spacings, and, you know, OSes exist, going for throw too often is going to lead to you getting teched just as often, etc. (And depending on your opponent's health, your throw can do just enough damage to put someone into Awakening, but if you don't spend the meter to OMC and follow up on the combo, you actually did them a favour: now they're in Awakening without Bursting and with plenty of health!) Of course, no one here is perfect. I think everyone who's played me more than twice can predict what move I'm most likely to use in a given situation, which forces me to step-up my mix-ups and pressure. And I've met people in lobbies who've downloaded me as fast as I usually download other players. That's what, arguably, makes fighters fun: you want me to stop blocking but remain safe in that effort; I want to reverse the situation. I'm blocking because I respect your pressure, but the moment YOLO AoA happens, that respect shatters and I will just DP out once I can start making assumptions. ("He's not actually frame-trapping or baiting me, he's not looking to catch my DP, I can just DP this for no risk." This ... is true way too often. It's as fun for me as it is for the opponent.) The rule about mashing is just -- look, an AoA, especially when you don't have the meter to rapid if your opponent blocks (nevermind if they just reversal or throw you out of start-up), is high-risk. So if you take that risk, you should be ready to take the reward, rather than throwing out AoA and hoping it works. It's not that anyone expects an elaborate combo so much as that, no, the lobbies are about ... developing good habits, regardless of skill level, so letting a six-hit AoA into a follow-up combo that the opponent techs out of is pretty much the antithesis of what we're going for here. It's not about winning, either in the training or general lobbies with "netplay" tendencies (I frequently scream at our Mitsuru player that he didn't teach me how to deal with netplay Mitsuru because he doesn't spam The Box); win or lose, no one cares -- it's about understanding the game you're playing, your character, your MUs, and becoming a stronger player overall. And on the subject of "yes, AoAs can be suicide": I have OHKO'd way, way, way too many people for AoAs. If you're predictable or just AoA happy (... I'm across the screen, why are you whiffing AoA over there?) in general and I have 50 meter, I can kill you pre-Awakening with one super. I have fought opponents who have lost both rounds of a match due to AoA meeting a giant "yeah, no." In the worst cases, the AoA wasn't even in range; in others, the opponent could have OMC'd, blocked the retaliation, and punished me for going with the nuclear response (I don't have to super, as that's a risk to me... but if you don't have the meter to rapid or you've demonstrated that you aren't playing as if you're fighting a human being rather than the CPU, that risk is much lower). I could, in most cases, just throw you. I could punish with a move that Fatal Counters into a combo. What's sad is that when AoAs are that poorly used, I don't have to think: I know I will kill you for thinking that was a good idea and you won't learn from it. That's not the kind of player any of us aspire to be. So, yeah. That's the deal with AoAs. Until we see 2.0 footage and/or the meta dramatically shifts, that's why that rule is there. Again: it's not something I enforce every time an AoA clocks in at 11 (or 10, or 9...) hits instead of 12. It's not even about AoAs specifically. But it's there for a reason.
Lostconfused Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I have been doing nothing but playing this game today. Expect Narukami bullshit. Also, lostconfused, I was too tired to stay up last night and play, i dunno if you were on anyway but I just went out cold lol Its cool, I ended up messing around with GG and taking some Ls in EXVS. Edit: Also if there is a new player lobby, please throw me an invite. I always need more practice,
Zombiepatrol7 Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 I would be willing to play almost anybody. I play Minazuki and some Adachi but not very much as I dropped him for the former, but I can still play him kinda okay? Muscle memory for his jump loop is fading a little but whatever. This is my first "anime" fighter so it's a lot different than what I'm used to(SF4 almost exclusively). I didn't play P4A original at all besides story mode because I'm a persona fan, and it got me into this. I don't think I'm -that bad- but who knows: it's Minazuki. You can't really be bad as Minazuki if you understand the basic concept of mix-up in fighting games and have a functional B button. Can send me a private message or reply in the topic if you want to play sometime, but I'm on steam much more often. I don't care if you're the worst player in the world or pretty good, I'll play with you and tell you afterward what I think you could work on and perhaps you could give me advice too. West Coast NA, PSN is the same as my username.
heavymetalmixer Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 GGs tonight guys, good to see more new people are playing in the Friday night rooms . . . Damn, I'm getting used to lose my last match.
Greater Force Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 So, GG's. I just HAD to go screw up and AoA in a panic right at the end, sorry. I need to find a alternative to 5C>2C SOON lol. I just love that link too much. Wanted to try more Rise/Labrys but felt I was going to be too awful and not much of a challenge with them. You guys are solid even with your subs, mine are like joke characters, lol.
Rickt Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Man I really need to learn actual Aki combos cus getting a CH 2B and doing only j.B > Dive is pitiful. GGs y'all.
TheHitmarkersPro Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 GGs, esp to Fortune for that long set we played after the room disbanded.I hit the deadly rave on him <3
indie_animator Posted November 22, 2014 Posted November 22, 2014 Didn't get an invite, but I'm glad it went well for you. Maybe there wasn't enough room for me. I could try once a month, if that's OK. I've got a beginner's room going right now, if anyone's up for practice. I can use it, thanks!
Greater Force Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 Thanks for the rare opportunity for me to use a variety of characters (that I suck at lol). It was turning into a bloodbath when Hitmarker seemed to go full KWO mode. I wasn't up for constantly fighting for my life with Marie at the moment, sorry. Remember also, that unfortunately, reaction (and ridiculously long combos) is important. Just knowing what to do and when to do it will only get so far. I can only say practice until you get used to it. Getting past casual level in FG's is very difficult if you aren't naturally talented, but not impossible (I keep telling myself that at least). GG's to you both.
TheHitmarkersPro Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 Thanks for the rare opportunity for me to use a variety of characters (that I suck at lol). It was turning into a bloodbath when Hitmarker seemed to go full KWO mode. I wasn't up for constantly fighting for my life with Marie at the moment, sorry. Remember also, that unfortunately, reaction (and ridiculously long combos) is important. Just knowing what to do and when to do it will only get so far. I can only say practice until you get used to it. Getting past casual level in FG's is very difficult if you aren't naturally talented, but not impossible (I keep telling myself that at least). GG's to you both. You were bursting in blockstrings and just panicking a lot. My advice to you would be to just calm down a bit while you play, and learn to just confirm into basic combos. Nobody's going to ask you to confirm a random hit into a full combo at first, hell, I don't even do it with j.B CH air hits with Minazuki although I should. Once you start registering your confirms faster, you can go for more optimal/longer stuff. Save your burst for when you really need it, or when you know you're going to get into a bad situation in certain MUs(I usually gold burst Shabrys' oki setups, fuck that shit lolol). Remember, you can also Guard Cancel Roll and Counter Assault (think you used a few iirc), but again, that costs meter, and meter gets damage. Near the end I just kinda said "fuck it" and brought out Minazuki, although S. Naoto was fun. Gotta relearn my grab reset combo lolol
heavymetalmixer Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 Thanks for the rare opportunity for me to use a variety of characters (that I suck at lol). It was turning into a bloodbath when Hitmarker seemed to go full KWO mode. I wasn't up for constantly fighting for my life with Marie at the moment, sorry. Remember also, that unfortunately, reaction (and ridiculously long combos) is important. Just knowing what to do and when to do it will only get so far. I can only say practice until you get used to it. Getting past casual level in FG's is very difficult if you aren't naturally talented, but not impossible (I keep telling myself that at least). GG's to you both. Just look at me, I think I'm a good player (not very good but decent) and I don't have the talent at all. "Talent" is "time + effort + information" in one word, there's no one that is born knowing how to do anything besides instinctive things.
Zombiepatrol7 Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 Sorry, when do we have the lobby at? I know it's Fridays but around what time?
heavymetalmixer Posted November 23, 2014 Posted November 23, 2014 Sorry, when do we have the lobby at? I know it's Fridays but around what time? 9 pm EST.
indie_animator Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks to GreaterForce & Hitmarkers for showing up to the unofficial DL & general public Sat Beginners Room I've been hosting the past few weeks. And extra matches today w/Hitmarkers. You're a really tough newbie! 0.0 Also played a lot of random people in rooms, TV World & ranked. I'm d. blue & E now, for what it's worth. Better defense, slow improvement w/Ted, not so much w/Labrys & Ken. Must stop using Chie & Kanji. Possible Junpei next weekend & deciding on whether to stick w/Ken & Labrys.
TheHitmarkersPro Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks to GreaterForce & Hitmarkers for showing up to the unofficial DL & general public Sat Beginners Room I've been hosting the past few weeks. And extra matches today w/Hitmarkers. You're a really tough newbie! 0.0 Also played a lot of random people in rooms, TV World & ranked. I'm d. blue & E now, for what it's worth. Better defense, slow improvement w/Ted, not so much w/Labrys & Ken. Must stop using Chie & Kanji. Possible Junpei next weekend & deciding on whether to stick w/Ken & Labrys. I wouldn't say I'm new, but there's plenty I need to learn, lol. People who don't like playing defense have a horrible time against me, but you weren't like that. Fun matches regardless, I got to test some new setups I made, surprisingly for a 1 bar the connection was pretty damn good lol. Shadow Naoto is fun, EX guns into the EX Hama guessing game lol
heavymetalmixer Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks to GreaterForce & Hitmarkers for showing up to the unofficial DL & general public Sat Beginners Room I've been hosting the past few weeks. And extra matches today w/Hitmarkers. You're a really tough newbie! 0.0 Also played a lot of random people in rooms, TV World & ranked. I'm d. blue & E now, for what it's worth. Better defense, slow improvement w/Ted, not so much w/Labrys & Ken. Must stop using Chie & Kanji. Possible Junpei next weekend & deciding on whether to stick w/Ken & Labrys. Hosting a lot of rooms? Add me then, maybe I'll be connected for some matches later.
Lostconfused Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks to GreaterForce & Hitmarkers for showing up to the unofficial DL & general public Sat Beginners Room I've been hosting the past few weeks. I saw the invite, sorry for not showing up. Was bussy for most of the day saturday and couldn't make it.
Greater Force Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 So, the extra session tonight was fun.., sorta lol. I guess everyones figured out my Marie playstyle and it's working against me. I was getting frustrated so decided to drop out for now. GG's. I really hope to use someone else too eventually, but it seems it's too early for that. Time to work on getting yellow rank back over the weekdays, I've done like 5 times so it's no biggie. I'm used to this routine heh. Yes, I know rank isn't that important, I just like seeing yellow next to my name for having played this since US launch lol.
Rickt Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I gotta say this weekend was probably the most fun weekend I've had in these lobbies. So many ridiculous things happened, like Shabrys mirrors, as well as quite a lot of Narukami being full on retard (and still winning cus Narukami). I think I should probably do a little less dicking around and a lot more actual practice with my mains this coming week though... So, the extra session tonight was fun.., sorta lol. I guess everyones figured out my Marie playstyle and it's working against me. I was getting frustrated so decided to drop out for now. GG's. I really hope to use someone else too eventually, but it seems it's too early for that. Time to work on getting yellow rank back over the weekdays, I've done like 5 times so it's no biggie. I'm used to this routine heh. Yes, I know rank isn't that important, I just like seeing yellow next to my name for having played this since US launch lol. I really don't think you should get down on yourself. You're easily the best Marie I've played yet. Speaking of color though, I have no idea how I'm still Yellow considering I've ranked up THREE people to Orange since I got it. This game must like me.
Greater Force Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Thanks, but it's obvious I'm a scrub killer at best. You guys who take this game seriously are just too good. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask in this thread, but... If any of you could send me some critic of my performance I'd be grateful. No matter how harsh it might be. I tend to either dominate (when fighting random beginners) or get stomped. I'd like to know every fault you see if possible. Either posting here or messaging me. I use PS3 controller so hoping that isn't holding me back.
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