[UNIEL] Byakuya

[-Kef-]

Does anyone think any of these set ups could be useful? I have the AI air teching neutral at first and then switch them to air teching backwards. I guess it could be used to condition your opponents to air tech forwards. Maybe it will spark some ideas and you guys can build onto it. You guys think it's practical or not worth giving up on damage and GRD steal?

http://youtu.be/ZFBEsOPomJk

 

I personally think it's not worth it. Byakuya has pretty good corner carry and side-switch combos which allow him to set his oki in the corner. If you drop the ender of his combo to try and go for one of this side to side mixups, he can potentially lose GRD like you said and most importantly, positional advantage (where his overhead+oki shines).

 

Also, are we sure the frame data we have is accurate? I've been collecting frame data everywhere from different sources, and the speed of 5A and 2A don't seem to matchup with some disadvantageous moves. It's pretty annoying. Still, I think we can't punish Merkava's 236C :/

[Genprey]

Any advice on how to approach the Vatista matchup? It's probably me being extremely free, but I'm finding it hard to punish a lot of Vatista's moves, although some look like they should be extremely unsafe on block...

[Loryuo]

i think the 22b sideswitch is pretty useful. it's good to catch unprepared people. though i probably would choose the damage over it.

[-Kef-]

It's kind of late, so hopefully I get all of this right. Spend the whole day with this man trying to figure some shit out, and here are some of the results (if someone posted about this, I am truly sorry, to tired to read the thread now):

 

First, I was trying to figure out the best way to combo from a 5B anti-air from anywhere on the screen. IMO, the move is a lot better than 3C for anti-airing, so I wanted a string that worked on different vertical and horizontal distances. After messing with delayed strings, delayed wall-bounces, charged strings, 4 move air strings, I think as of right now the best choice is the following:

 

- (Enemy Jumping) 5B>9j.B>j.C>214A/B>land

 

As simple as that sounds, that is the best anti air pickup IMO as of right now. Once you hit them with the web, they are in hitstun until they touch the ground, giving you a lot of time to do whatever you want. This inspired a new combo string that I am gonna start using:

 

- 2B>2C>5C>TK j.214B>delayed 66C (cancel before wallbounce)>214B~A~A>2C>236A/B~4A~A~A>2C>236A/B~4A~A~A>

- 3039 Damage (No vorpal bonus) - 3.5+ GRD Blocks - 77.48 Meter after Combo

 

That is a 4 web combo which I believe can later turn into a total of 5 webs in- a combo if you combo from an oki web setup. The combo is just a tad harder than the usual BnB but nothing too bad. The string also allows you to go back to the original combo if you wish, in the situation that you changed your mind because you think the might drop out of the combo (ex: you started with an "A" starter, don't know assault deterioration etc.). Combos from that involve TK Web can also be adjusted so you intentionally make the combo long enough for the second (and last) rep of Rekka>Web to become impossible, this way you can end the combo a bit early to get 236C oki.

 

Is it worth it? I think it is. This is a regular BnB started from the same 2B.

 

- 2B>2C>5C>214B>214B~A~A>2C>236A/B~4A~A~A>2C>236A/B~4A~A~A>

- 2969Dmg (No vorpal bonus) -  3 GRD Blocks -  61.12 Meter after Combo

 

I messed around with the TK Web stuff way to late into the lab session, so I guess I'll try more stuff tomorrow. I am pretty sure there's more potential there. Also, I did try double TK Web, they come out of hitstun really quickly after the second web, so it's not worth. I'll also test consistency with the anti-air combos. 

 

... AND two last things:

1. Apparently our boy is one of the only characters that can't punish Merkava's 236C. Was trying stuff with Shield, but it seems 2A/5A are too slow for that.

2. If you are having trouble with the 2C before the last rep of his usual BnB, you can plink A+C like you would in Street Fighter 4.

[RentalBlackout]

Considering how often we land a hit with 2B rather than 5A/2A, I'd say it's definitely worth learning that combo.

[drugtown]

 

2. If you are having trouble with the 2C before the last rep of his usual BnB, you can plink A+C like you would in Street Fighter 4.

 

i forgot you could do this, argh

[Zephyrion22]

So I messed with the TK web combos, and I found an alternative route to Kurotora's corner combo involving a D web follow-up in the corner. It does less damage than the one he shown, but it works even on 5A/2A starters

 

2A>2B>2C>TK j214C~C~D>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

2459 dmg 51.74 EXS and 3.5 GRD building

 

so yeah, you should only save this route for A starters and do the 5B/2B>5C>214A~A~D when you open with said moves
.

[Shadow Ninja 64]

I haven't had time to test that 4 web combo that Kef posted much, but from my experience TKing the first web is unnecessary and maybe even harder than just doing normal grounded 214B.  I also got it to work off DashC starter but not DashB XX 236A starter (last trap jump A followup whiffed).

 

Edit: Ok, from max range 2B starter the TK web might be necessary.

 

Edit 2: If you do the TK web and end up too close to do the DashC portion, you can swap in 5C instead.  It's a little less damage and carry but it also seems slightly easier to land the last A web jump followup.  Also, the DashB XX 236A starter works with 5C where it does not work with DashC, so it's like:

 

Dash B XX 236A~4A, (dash) 5C XX 214B~A~A, 2C XX 236A~4A~A~A, 2B XX 236A~4A~A~A [2951 damage]

[-Kef-]

Round 2 of late night lab time. Couldn't play too much today, so sorry if the findings are a bit lame. Again, I haven't had a chance to read the thread to it's fullest, so excuse me if I post something that was already discussed.
 
So I don't know if you guys knew, but in the corner, Byakuya can extend his damage and meter gain by using the second follow-up of his 236A before cancelling into the web follow-up. So for example the TK Web BnB with the extension would look like this:
 
- [Corner] 2B>2C>5C>TK j.214B>5C>214B~A~A>2C>236A~6A~4C~A~A>2C>236A~6A~4C~A~A
 
This allows for a bit more damage in most routes and considerable meter gain. The use of the C version of the web is crucial for the extension to work. The C version makes you fall the fastest while that high in the air (while it is the slowest from a normal ground cancel, like from a 5C>Web for example). Note that this also gives more meter to the opponent, so you decide on what combo route to use. Talking about combo routes, I did a bit more research on them today if you are interested.
 

Corner Damage Route Test (No Vorpal):
OG=BnB (No TK Web)
TK=TK Route + 5C>Web
RK=TK Route + Web
dC=TK Route + 66C (No Wallbounce)
+  = Rekka extension was added
---------------------------
2956 OG  3 Webs 61.12/45.79
3068 OG+ 3 Webs 71.20/56.18
2856 TK  4 Webs 72.23/58.90
2944 TK+ 4 Webs 82.31/72.48
2936 RK  4 Webs 67.40/54.10
3077 RK+ 4 Webs 77.48/66.94
2938 cD  4 Webs 77.48/66.66
3044 cD+ 4 Webs 87.56/78.63

 

And I also did a tiny bit of testing of the hitstun deterioration with some starter chains.

 

Corner Hitstun Route Test (No Vorpal):

OG=BnB

TK=TK Route + 5C

RK=TK Route + Web

dC=TK Route + 66C (No Wallbounce)

---------------------------------

#1=5B>2B>2C>5C

[OG:Yes][OG+:Yes][TK:Yes][TK+:Yes]

[RK:Yes][RK+:Yes][dC:Yes][dC+:Yes]

 

#2=2B>5B>2C>5C

[OG:Yes][OG+:Yes][TK:Yes][TK+:Yes]

[RK:Yes][RK+:Yes][dC:Yes][dC+:Yes]

 

#3=5A>5B>2C>5C

[OG:Yes][OG+:Yes][TK:Inc][TK+:Inc]

[RK:Yes][RK+:Yes][dC:No ][dC+:No ]

- TK: First web connected, OTGs were inconsistent.

 

#4=2A>2A>2A>2A>2B>2C>5C

[OG:Yes][OG+:Yes][TK:No ][TK+:No ]

[RK:No ][RK+:No ][dC:No ][dC+:No ]

- TK/RK: First web did not connect anymore.

 

Also, I found out that 66B can be used as an OTG pickup instead of 2C. It does a bit more damage in combos and builds a bit more meter. In my personal experience, it might even be easier to pickup with 66B than with 2C. Of course, I did a bit of testing:

2C OTG vs. 66B OTG Test (No Vorpal)

Combo(s) used: OG, OG+, cD+

[2C+2C  ] 2956 OG 3 Webs 61.12/45.79

[66C+66C] 2953 OG 3 Webs 61.54/46.14

[66C+2C ] 2979 OG 3 Webs 61.33/45.94

[2C+66C ] 2967 OG 3 Webs 61.33/45.99

[2C+2C  ] 3044 cD+ 4 Webs 87.56/78.63

[66C+2C ] 3034 cD+ 4 Webs 87.77/79.04

 

For those who don't know what to make of it or don't want to read all that, in conclusion:

 

- As long as your starter chain allows you to hit the first web of a TK Web route combo, you should get a solid combo. Maybe not two reps of the Rekka>Web ender, but definitely some good positioning/damage.

- To my surprise, you CAN combo from an abuse of 2As as a starter chain. The usual BnB works in this situation.

- Extension of 236 chains in the corner do not seem to cause the combo to drop more often, so it seems pretty safe to go for them whenever you know that rep of Rekka>Web is going to hit.

- Damage difference between route is pretty small, the difference is in the GRD steal and meter build (for both players).

- 66B easier instead of 2C in some routes IMO. I was able to perfrom a full combo from a 2A>2A>2A>2A>2B>2C>5C starter with two 66Bs as OTGs.

 

That's all for now. Tomorrow, hopefully I can mess around with consistent corner Kurotora oki routes. I think there might even be potential to set it up midscreen. Still nothing on a Merkava 236C punish, I think we are done.

 

 

So I messed with the TK web combos, and I found an alternative route to Kurotora's corner combo involving a D web follow-up in the corner. It does less damage than the one he shown, but it works even on 5A/2A starters

 

2A>2B>2C>TK j214C~C~D>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

2459 dmg 51.74 EXS and 3.5 GRD building

 

so yeah, you should only save this route for A starters and do the 5B/2B>5C>214A~A~D when you open with said moves
.

 

 

Nice finding! The 2C>TK j.214C as a lot of potential I feel. This even works after a string of mashed 2As. Great stuff.

[Ryd']

You don't need the corner for a second hit of rekkas into web for a combo, though it works best if you save it for the second rekka~web string in a combo midscreen; guaranteeing the knockdown gets a little tricky otherwise, and you're only able to get 2 of the usual rekka~web strings in anyway.  I have this for the corner:

 

2B 5C 2C 236A~4A~A~A 5B 236A~6A~4A~A~B (jA whiff) 2B 236A~6A~4A~A~B  3169 damage

 

Midscreen can do a double rekka~web~B to finish off 2B 5C 2C 236A~4A~A~C 66C etc for around 3050ish damage.

[Justice7541]

Someone explain to me how this guy's ground web works? Is it unblockable or something? They have to jump? I have no idea but it keeps hitting me.

[Zephyrion22]

Someone explain to me how this guy's ground web works? Is it unblockable or something? They have to jump? I have no idea but it keeps hitting me.

 

if you mean his 623x series (the web teleport), they are unblockable if you are at a certain distance from him. It won't hit you if you're too far or already blocking something, or in the air. In that case, Byakuya just leaves a web on the ground that is actually blockable. your best bet is to mash out of it or jump, since anything but the C version takes a huge amount of time winding, and you can easily react to it, except in very specific setups

[Shadow Ninja 64]

Agh, lost a reply that I was working on so I apologize if I forget something the second time around here.  Regarding the 4 web combo, it turns out that it works with other starters, such as j.[2C], and here's the most efficient damage path I've found so far:

 

j.[2C], 5C jc j.B j.C XX j.214A, 2C XX 214A~A~A, DashB XX 236A~4A~A~A, 2B XX 236A~4A~A~A (or Rekkas into 236C) [3136 / 3677]

 

As a side note, this version is harder than just doing 5C XX 214B instead of the 2C pickup after the first web, but it is the max damage so I listed it here like this.  Also, as Kef noted in his post, using DashB instead of 2B for the last rep might make it easier to land the final A followup, but you sacrifice the option of ending in 2B XX Rekkas XX 236C then.

 

 

Another pair of starters you can use is [3C] XX 214C and uncharged 3C, although the easiest way to get 4 webs after the [3C] involves a side switch:

 

[3C] XX 214C~C, land, neutral jump j.B j.C XX j.214B~A~A, DashB XX 236A~4A~A~A, 2B XX 236A~4A~A~A [2058]

3C jc j.B j.C XX j.214A, 5C XX 214B~A~A, DashB XX 236A~4A~A~A, 2B XX 236A~4A~A~A [3164]

 

Note: That last combo can go into higher damage if you change the DashB to 2C and the 2B to DashB [3227], but as mentioned previously you lose out on the option to cancel the last hit of a full rekka chain into 236C if you do so since only 2B XX Rekkas knocks the enemy high enough for that to work after so many knockdowns.

[TD]

You guys how does he play the neutral and approach I'm just not understanding and approaching via web swings feels so yolo and unsafe

[drugtown]

You guys how does he play the neutral and approach I'm just not understanding and approaching via web swings feels so yolo and unsafe

 

hit 2B a lot

[TD]

Why is that exactly? That doesn't quite answer my question about approaching because it does not move him forward at all. But I'd like to know why you think I should be hitting 2b a lot.

[Rhiya]

2b is fast and has good range for what it is

 

i think it's 9f

[drugtown]

2b is fast and has good range for what it is

 

i think it's 9f

 

it's his best button

 

as for approaching: yolo web swing is how you get in

 

you set webs in the midscreen with your 214 series and then fling yourself at them and hope they don't disrespect your approach

[Nerk]

I'll just go with some of my feelings here, but this is not exactly a proven topic so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

All webswing followups require roughly a 2 or 3 second commitment and are easily shielded or anti-aired by anyone with a clue, you'll find yourself in deep didgeridoo if this is your only game plan. A shielded web swing followup loses your frame advantage and is sometimes punishable. Web swings are really good if you use them smart, but If you just dive in and press a followup you lose.

In matchups where you find yourself being zoned out (Vatista, Hilda), I find the best approach is to just dash forward and block/shield, jump forward and block/shield and occasionally web swing. As said, whenever you're in 2B range, use 2B. It's that good. When you're in range, 66C is really good for catching people off guard, it wallbounces and leads into corner carry combo on hit, but watch out for the blind spot. from the air, j.2[C] is amazing. Advantage on block and shield, mad active frames, untechable launch on hit for corner carry combo.

214X-X-B halts your air momentum and gives you air actions back even on whiff, minus assault. You can dive in with web swing, halt with B followup just short of them, then fall down with j.2[C] or j.B. A lot of the time if they tried to anti air you, the B webswing followup will smack them down, while if they were waiting to shield, you will whiff then come down with j.2[C], which is advantage even on shield. GRD Vorpal comes in really handy in the web swing approach too due to being able to chain shift cancel all web swing followups on whiff and shield and gives you your airdash back. If your follow up B gets shielded, normally you can't hit buttons on the way down, chain shift lets you. Chain shift D followup leaves you with all sorts of options and covers a big distance. Shielded A and C followup become advantage with chain shift to cancel the special landing recovery.

I say that if they're sitting full screen then don't be afraid to sit there and charge GRD -> shield projectile -> charge GRD. I feel like vorpal is super important with this character given his relatively unsafe nature. In mid and close range, you can ride your normals to victory. Give them incentive to be in that range, or suffer safe webswing chainshift approaches.

[Ryd']

You guys how does he play the neutral and approach I'm just not understanding and approaching via web swings feels so yolo and unsafe

 

He really seems to be that kind of character.  His webs and j2[C] give him some weird extra mobility that can make him obnoxious to try to hit while allowing him to score hits (or at least safely get in), though a lot of his tools seem pretty gimmicky.  He seems to want to spend a lot of time in the air, but he's in a game where being in the air isn't the greatest idea unless you're Merkava.  On the other hand, webs tend to distract people to varying degrees (until you get hit...), which can help him get away with his gimmicks.  I don't know if I have a lot of faith in his tools being viable once the novelty wears off though.  He's pretty slippery (though definitely not on Seth's level) until he gets caught, but that might not be enough given that he doesn't really have much else that stands out compared to the rest of the cast.

[TD]

2b is fast and has good range for what it is

 

i think it's 9f

  

it's his best button

 

as for approaching: yolo web swing is how you get in

 

you set webs in the midscreen with your 214 series and then fling yourself at them and hope they don't disrespect your approach

  

Thank you guys. 2b is that good huh. Ok. I'll try it out.

I'll just go with some of my feelings here, but this is not exactly a proven topic so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

All webswing followups require roughly a 2 or 3 second commitment and are easily shielded or anti-aired by anyone with a clue, you'll find yourself in deep didgeridoo if this is your only game plan. A shielded web swing followup loses your frame advantage and is sometimes punishable. Web swings are really good if you use them smart, but If you just dive in and press a followup you lose.

In matchups where you find yourself being zoned out (Vatista, Hilda), I find the best approach is to just dash forward and block/shield, jump forward and block/shield and occasionally web swing. As said, whenever you're in 2B range, use 2B. It's that good. When you're in range, 66C is really good for catching people off guard, it wallbounces and leads into corner carry combo on hit, but watch out for the blind spot. from the air, j.2[C] is amazing. Advantage on block and shield, mad active frames, untechable launch on hit for corner carry combo.

214X-X-B halts your air momentum and gives you air actions back even on whiff, minus assault. You can dive in with web swing, halt with B followup just short of them, then fall down with j.2[C] or j.B. A lot of the time if they tried to anti air you, the B webswing followup will smack them down, while if they were waiting to shield, you will whiff then come down with j.2[C], which is advantage even on shield. GRD Vorpal comes in really handy in the web swing approach too due to being able to chain shift cancel all web swing followups on whiff and shield and gives you your airdash back. If your follow up B gets shielded, normally you can't hit buttons on the way down, chain shift lets you. Chain shift D followup leaves you with all sorts of options and covers a big distance. Shielded A and C followup become advantage with chain shift to cancel the special landing recovery.

I say that if they're sitting full screen then don't be afraid to sit there and charge GRD -> shield projectile -> charge GRD. I feel like vorpal is super important with this character given his relatively unsafe nature. In mid and close range, you can ride your normals to victory. Give them incentive to be in that range, or suffer safe webswing chainshift approaches.

  You don't seem wrong at all. This was my thought process until it wasn't working for me. Maybe because I'm playing him like a trap char when he is more rush down. That is probably it. Nevertheless, this was a great post. There are some things I didn't know here like the shielding and which pokes are good for neutral. Keep thinking 5b is a godly poke but it is such a letdown as a poke and as an antiair. In general he just feel way too gimmicky and I was afraid that he might not be too good a character in a game like this...

You put the game plan into perspective for me. Need to start getting that vorp, it's costing me a lot of matches both on offense and defense. Time to practice web swing chain shift stuff. Anyway, I will keep this in mind. Thank you.

He really seems to be that kind of character.  His webs and j2[C] give him some weird extra mobility that can make him obnoxious to try to hit while allowing him to score hits (or at least safely get in), though a lot of his tools seem pretty gimmicky.  He seems to want to spend a lot of time in the air, but he's in a game where being in the air isn't the greatest idea unless you're Merkava.  On the other hand, webs tend to distract people to varying degrees (until you get hit...), which can help him get away with his gimmicks.  I don't know if I have a lot of faith in his tools being viable once the novelty wears off though.  He's pretty slippery (though definitely not on Seth's level) until he gets caught, but that might not be enough given that he doesn't really have much else that stands out compared to the rest of the cast.

You gave me the normals to work with - besides 2b, I mean. This will help a lot.

I agree with the air stuff again, just doesn't feel right but i will try and get my plans together, thanks to all of you.

These posts cleared just about everything I needed to know! Thank you guys once again. I really appreciate it.

Now I do have one more question. Reliable anti air? 5b doesn't work, 3c is too slow, ja feels awkward. I am trying to do the 'aa using your best knowledge of the character you are fighting' thing like litchi in Blazblue... Failing miserably. This is probably the most frustrating thing about him, he isn't too fast on the defense and people ASS-ault like crazy and I'm very very sure that shit is beatable

[Nerk]

He has no reliable anti air attack. You can try meeting them air to air with j.B. Otherwise, you're limited to universal anti airs: shield those assaults, get your frame advantage back then go on offense, or just veil off. Risky, but those are your best bets. God help you if you're fighting Vatista, shield doesn't work against her j.C... haven't fought a really good Wald yet, but that doesn't look fun either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsruYldrExg More footage of best Byakuya I've seen so far. He doesn't really seem to use web swings to directly approach, rather uses them to run away or put himself in a safe position from run-ins. Only ever uses B and D followup too, there's a nice instant where it whiffs and he falls with j.B to combo, but I have a feeling that was the opponent screwing up his DP input.

Note at 0:30 the nice mixup... throw into corner, 214A, chain shift, fall with j.A overhead or land and 2B low. Hope we can get more footage like this.

[Justice7541]

2b is fast and has good range for what it is

i think it's 9f

2B is literally the reason why I decided to pick up this character, shit is godlike.

[Chickzama]

Finished up my little project...

Web.txt:

A list of projectile exceptions and moves that look like they would/won't break webs: http://pastebin.com/TJ7nRG1Q

[Zephyrion22]

You guys how does he play the neutral and approach I'm just not understanding and approaching via web swings feels so yolo and unsafe

 

Question was mostly answered, just don't forget his dash B, this move is really slept upon : It is fast, travels a good amount of distance, is safe, or positive on block by itself when you hit with the late frames of it, special and Chain shift cancellable for safety if used up close. It has its flaws but the merit of forcing  most of the other characters  to jump to deal with it. Then you can just use empty dash brake to psych them up into jumping at the wrong time, leaving you time for approaching/setting webs/using j2[C]

Oh and it is even a good way to deal with aerial approach, since the low profile allows him to cross-under some air approaches : most of Byakuya's  AAs in the corner whiff, and shielding always holds the risk of getting GRD break. So it's an option to consider : even if you do get punished for using dash B , Congrats, you've just gotten out of the corner. Even if you did it late, chances are you'll make a mistimed aerial approach whiff and get a free hit (rarely happens but still you never know so be ready to confirm into side-switch BnB)

 

Web swing is still a valid approach, but you'll need to put on some serious work to know when to use them and which version to use for max efficiency. For example TK C web follow-up makes him fall a lot faster than other webs, allowing you to gain some ground relatively safely while putting a web on the screen. On the other hand,  ground C web have a nearly fullscreen dash follow-up that is extremely risky, but can score a good counter hit against a mistimed projectile. Most of the time you'll use web swings in response to something the other player did, or likes to do since it's damn punishable when used on an idle opponent