[CPEX] Kagura Mutsuki Gameplay Discussion

[-Seo]

Im curious if the corner combo change to [2]8C made a difference on bad starters like A moves or grabs. Also, is his command grab special cancellable now? Saw someone follow up a 5DB with [2]8C midscreen (only hit once).

 

It's always been special cancellable, but you have to wait till Kagura's feet touch the ground in the animation, because he's counted as being airborne at the start.

 

 

Does 2.0 3C look faster to you as someone who is probably able to notice the subtleties?

 

No.

[FatalCounter]

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How much faster does 2.0 3C look faster to you as someone who is probably able to notice the subtleties? That's what I want to try and confirm since you gave some numbers earlier, though those were only about 2B. I'm not exactly sure how it can be tested.

I would say it looks like 12F or 13F at the best. The thing is not his startup since Hazama 3C is also 14F and recover faster with a huge range, Kagura 3C had the same startup, super unsafe on block and move him forward. Hazama 3C is his longer normal poke, does not move him forward, recover faster on whiff and his hurtbox is lowered so that he can even sweep a running Ragna 5B. So the big deal was recovery because Kagura 3C moving him forward is perfect for his drives. Even if it remains 14F, it will be one of his best poke thanks to the range, recovery and combo possibility. 

 

Now if you do like 5B> 2B> 6B> 3C and someone blocks it and you are safe this is perfect. If this is a true blockstring, oh dear we are blessed. That means no more random Drives committment. Lets hope, it is because we need it. 3C was nerfed from his first version in BBCP 1.0 where has that huge float and could be cancelled into CT midscreen.

[Angry Guy of DE]

I doubt we'll ever have a 3C that is safe on block, especially since 6B is jump cancel-able on block.  Knowing how they do stuff it would end up as a one or the other; 3C is safe or 6B gets to be jump cancel-able on block.

I did wish that 3C had a better hitbox above him, the animation would make you think that it could be a pseudo anti-air.  If 3C does have improved recovery will the frame data stay the same for how it is on block? 

[Skye]

3c doesn't need to be safe, I care more about how safe 6b is. With gaps with 5c, 6c and 2c and [4]6a is my main worry. If 5b is still even on block, you can use stagger pressure on them if they barrier block and maybe get a legit 5db on instant block. But as far s extending or resetting pressure, I just hope that it's not terribly risky.

[FatalCounter]

I doubt we'll ever have a 3C that is safe on block, especially since 6B is jump cancel-able on block.  Knowing how they do stuff it would end up as a one or the other; 3C is safe or 6B gets to be jump cancel-able on block.

I did wish that 3C had a better hitbox above him, the animation would make you think that it could be a pseudo anti-air.  If 3C does have improved recovery will the frame data stay the same for how it is on block? 

What are you talknig about? They are many character I can list who has much. Lets try with Mu 12, my other main. 5B is jump cancel-able on block, 3C is jump cancellable too. 5C is safe on block. She can 5C> 2C> 3C or 2C> 5C> 3C or all this to 6C making her pressure safe. Litchi or Noel got even better. Safe on block does not mean it has to be -2, 3 or 4, even -6 can be good. Hazama 3C is -6 on block but please try to punish it. Hakumen 3C is -12 on block only some character can punish it due to the pushblock. 

 

3C recovers faster, that is a fact. And  yes it is easy to calculate the minus or plus on block. Just look at the frame data. 3C is a lvl 3 move which means it has  16F blockstun, you do Blockstun - recovery  and -2 (Arcsys numbers). That works for almost all the normals. For example 5B 13F (Blockstun) - 11 (recovery) -2 = 0 on block. It can be different but it will small around 1 or 2. BTW many normal frame data are not updated since BBCS EX. 

[bakahyl]

Although you need to take account instant blocking as well.  Moves that are normally worse than -4 can very much be punished, like Ragna's hell's fang (although it's safe on normal block and he can even use a dp to punish you for comitting)

[Angry Guy of DE]

Well Ragna's Hell's Fang is kind of weird to say because that thing can hit near the end of it and I swear it seems less than -4 before IB.

I just don't see 3C getting improved to the point of being safe aka "cannot be 2A'd IB or no for CH punish" since it's function is for combos.  I think it would be great if it was Hakumen or Hazama levels of safe but those don't really convert to combos outside of CH (Hakumen) or done very close (Hazama).  Kagura's 3C also in the corner combos into CT so it is able to be used more in combos for damage.

3C doesn't need to be a safe since you don't need to commit to it from 6B with it being jump-cancelable on block.  I do agree that it would be nice if more of Kagura's normal were in-fact true airtight strings, but I've found that 2A into 6A or a slightly delayed 5B catches people when they are conditioned to expect the overhead. 

My point is 3C doesn't need to be safe because it should just be used for hit confirmed combos or to do drive strings on characters that have to respect it since they have no reversal option.

[FatalCounter]

You just don't get it, do you? Having a better 3C at our disposition is better. If you keep jumping after any 6B you will get predictable. Commit into 3C catch people trying to jump or mash since it is not a true blockstring. If 6B was stance cancel-lable, it would be great but since it is not and it is a very unsafe move on block, being able to cancel it into something less punishable is better. How many options do we have after 6B that are reliable? If you jump, you can get punished easily since you are on defensive, if you do 3C, 2C or 5C , an inv move will catch you and if you throw a firaball, any character with an inv move can punish you too. And if you do nothing, this is even worse.  

 

Nothing is safe after a blocked 6B, believe me! Well except 41236C if you are able to do it. 

[Skye]

Hence my overlooked post about wanting 6b to be safer.

[Angry Guy of DE]

6B when it is jump canceled is safe, it just means that your pressure has ended to a certain extent.

I also have to ask who are you playing that shows no such respect for your strings to be ready to crank out a dp after blocking 6B?  Even videos of 2.0 Kagura don't get disrespected to that level so anyone that does that on the drop of a dime should be baited more than attempted to use 3C to catch mashing.

Would 3C be better if it was safe?  Sure.  Is that really something Kagura needs for his gameplan?  I don't think so in my opinion.  Trying to use 3C to catch mashing is such a bad idea since it is so far down the options of moves you can chain into that you are asking to eat a dp by using that to catch jumps or normals.

His 5B being even on block with the additional ability to naturally gatling into 6B while holding a [4] charge is strong enough as is.  Hell I know that if you are daring enough 5DA can armor through a lot of reversals for a FC like Litchi's dp if you know they are willing to mash a reversal instead of blocking.

His 6B would be the better candidate to make a move safer on block with since you want to be close enough to continue your pressure with his T-Rex arm  range A and B normals.  3C is just a combo tool that should be hit confirmed into or used as a punish on things you know like Kokonoe's fireball super on block: 3C (CH) > 6DA midscreen to get a solid punish and avoid the fireball as it comes down.
 

[FatalCounter]

Well, I seriously want to watch some of your matches and see how you jump cancel 6B everytime and dont get punished fore that. Maybe you just get away with it and you keep believing it is.  Well I guess some people just want a solid character and less predictable. Having more than 1 option is always better than having 1, this is all I am saying. 

[-Seo]

Well, I seriously want to watch some of your matches and see how you jump cancel 6B everytime and dont get punished fore that. Maybe you just get away with it and you keep believing it is.

 

Please don't forget that jump cancelling isn't limited to jumping back in. If someone is doing reversals after your 6B you can always IAD/super jump back. In those situations it's pretty much as DE said.

 

6B when it is jump canceled is safe, it just means that your pressure has ended to a certain extent.

 

 

 

[PrinnyWander]

I just saw Kagura's changes in 2.0. I'm gonna miss the [4]6B corner combo..why'd they have to take it away? That's the main reason I like playing Kagura; that combo just looks so sweet. I'm still gonna keep him as my main; I hope these changes won't be all bad.

[chzchan]

I am very bothered by not being able to do the 5DB > 66 > (6D ???? ??? ?) > 6C thing right now since it apparently works in 1.1 even though it wasn't discovered until 2.0. I am able to sometimes get Kagura into a neutral state after facerolling my controller during the visual cue of when his feet are facing out of the screen during the later animation of his command grab kick, but it so very rarely happens. No idea how to do it consistently.

 

How does it work? I got it to work once and it feels like you maybe have to plink as well as input 66 at the speed of light, but the timing is ridiculously strict because you get a grounded 6DC if you are slightly too late and you are still up in the air if you do it a tiny bit too early. The 6C happening still makes very little sense to me.

 

[-Seo]

Right, so I think the idea behind this, is that when you go into another stance at a very specific time during 5DB, the game is putting you between being airborne and on the ground, if you time it right, Kagura jitters a tiny bit before doing a stance on the ground. During that little period, you can cancel the stance into a few things, barrier, crush trigger, dash for example. It's easiest done with barrier. I've not been able to get dash from it anywhere near consistently at all, but strumming 5DB>2D~AB gets barrier incredibly easy.

 

You can tack on an extra 200 damage in the corner pretty easily once you get the timing down, but the midscreen 6C stuff is still much too difficult for me to get down honestly. You can also do 5DB>6D~5DX to do another 5D move after 5DB, but it's completely useless.

[chzchan]

I guess that kind of makes sense. I'll try the barrier thing.

 

Is there any way it will possibly be made less difficult in 2.0? Just seems so useful for corner carry from midscreen command grab.

[-Seo]

I can't think of ways it would be less difficult in 2.0, but I would like to believe so! Cancelling it into walk seemed near effortless in the original video, but I've not been able to get it at all. I've been able to get the dash a few times though, but it honestly felt like it was by pure dumb luck. More often than not I'll end up getting a dash 6DC which looks a little weird lol.

 

Also it's easiest to get the barrier cancel with 2D~AB.

[someonewhodied]

The 5DB Stance cancel is the same as noel's j.D cancel into d6B i think. (except it works the opposite where noel gets to go into drive without a drive starter, kagura goes from in drive to out of it)

 

in 1.1 i was able to only cancel from stance to another set of stances or into barrier and then that into walking.

 

Seems like if you don't immediately buffer a special or barrier, your drive button is buffered and on landing you go into stances again immediately.

 

I was able to do:

5D~B>2D~4AB>66C>6D~B>2D~C>5D~C>[2]8C midscreen.

[-Seo]

So something to keep in mind is that 6DA has AMAZING invuln on it, from the start of the move up to the very near end. It'll cleanly beat a lot of reversals and supers. It does lose to lows however.

[chzchan]

I stopped getting hit by my Kagura buddy's Wyvern randomly in neutral and then I realized that I didn't need to barrier to block it.

[-Seo]

Either 5A got a level increase, or 6B is a few frames faster, but 5A>6B works on standing now.

[Toushi]

Guys!

 

Any tips for Mission# 19 ?

 

I do exactly like the demonstration but the 3C after 5D~A does not link

[Harukasan]

Delay your 2DA and 5DA as much as you can. If you do this you won't have to microdash out of the corner as shown in the demonstration, making the 3C easier to connect.

[OmniBot]

Either 5A got a level increase, or 6B is a few frames faster, but 5A>6B works on standing now.

 

I think it's faster. After finding out that 6B somehow stuffs Mu's 2A and 2B after IBing ikutachi, I did some rough testing and I think it has 11 frames of start-up now.

[Toushi]

Delay your 2DA and 5DA as much as you can. If you do this you won't have to microdash out of the corner as shown in the demonstration, making the 3C easier to connect.

 

Thks!!!!

 

Just got it on the first try