[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Zephyrion22]

I have a question for everyone.  What is the most solid counter to BR at long range in pressure.  236H Cuts the gunflame and the BR, loses to the BB iirc.  I think stand P tags the br, in time to block the gunflame and BB, so buffer in the h.  6p probably beats BR the latest, but also probably gets tagged by the gunflame.

 

I'm thinking of using 5p as my standard, but wondered if you guys had anything different.

 

Also, is there anywhere we have made a list of characters that can be hit by:

 

2D -> slide

 

and

 

stab -> slide.

 

Also great would be character you can put in j.s j.6h pressure on block from a vault in, and which you can't.

 

Finally, some characters seem much harder to anti air into standard 5S, 5h, 6h combos.  Faust especially almost always whiffs the 5h.  Something to keep in mind I suppose

 

 

There is a misconception about jS>j.6H : It works on most standing chars ( Ky, Milia, Chipp May and Faust are too small, even standing, for this to work)and whiffs on every crouching char . It has two uses :

-During pressure, gaining  more advantage/RISC + vacuum for your jump-in and getting good mixup opportunities after it ONCE you've conditioned your opponent to respect and stand block your Leap (after having used leap jH> jD or j214S to kill bad AAs, or used 214S> leap so that they keep standing, and taught them to respect your leap options). In the case they crouched it, jS will whiff and if they don't react in time, j.6H becomes a throw.

- Calling out projectiles or any standing pokes, and catch them in standing recovery for optimal punishes (can be done with IAD if used that way)

 

for the 5S,5H,6H you can sometimes replace 5S by 5P/2P/5K or omit it and go directly into 5H in some cases to make your routes more stable on some characters. mainly combo and character dependent, so test out what works best for your combo !

[KentoHardRok]

I'll have to try this in training but maybe someone else can confirm, I'm pretty sure hawk baker has like 9 invincible frames you might be able to use to counter, granted it's risky though. I use HB to counter Milia wakeup mixups when she tried that blade circle thing with bad Moon and it works well.

[Destin]

There is a misconception about jS>j.6H : It works on every standing char (although it can be tight on smaller characters) and whiffs on every crouching char . It has two uses :

-During pressure, gaining more advantage/RISC + vacuum for your jump-in and getting good mixup opportunities after it ONCE you've conditioned your opponent to respect and stand block your Leap (after having used leap jH> jD or j214S to kill bad AAs, or used 214S> leap so that they keep standing, and taught them to respect your leap options). In the case they crouched it, jS will whiff and if they don't react in time, j.6H becomes a throw.

- Calling out projectiles or any standing pokes, and catch them in standing recovery for optimal punishes (can be done with IAD if used that way)

for the 5S,5H,6H you can sometimes replace 5S by 5P/2P/5K or omit it and go directly into 5H in some cases to make your routes more stable on some characters. mainly combo and character dependent, so test out what works best for your combo !

Are you positive? I remember not being able to do it against ky at all.

[xlolxlolx]

if you vault during pressure....you'll get air thrown just so you know

[Destin]

Japanese do it all the time. I doubt that's 100% air thrown

[Zephyrion22]

if you vault during pressure....you'll get air thrown just so you know

 Vault IS risky to pull off, but if you want to punish it, you'll have to constantly look out for it, and maybe eat something else in the process. That's why I tried to mention basic conditioning. nobody is supposed to eat any Dust and yet even the best players eat one every once in a while. Vault in pressure when used sparingly is your best way of forcing your way back on the opponent, and give you an opportunity to mix them up/ make them trip up. Besides you have enough moves/mobility options from vaulting to avoid obvious air throws or sloppy jump out mashes.

 

I completely agree that constantly vaulting is really bad though : Like any slow mixups, it grows stale pretty fast and can cost you dearly when overused !

 

Also, edited my previous post on jS > j6H. After testing, doesnt work on Ky, May, Milia, Chipp and Faust out of Vault or IAD (except when they use specific normals). : you have to go for raw j6H in punish situations, or settle for jH>stuff or jS>jK if they are standing.  Thanks for pointing it out !

[Dreiko]

Remember, vault doesn't exhaust your airdashes, you can also jump install it, you can do it in pressure and just fall back, just vault while holding 4 and airdash backwards as soon as possible, you recover quite quickly if you do the A vault. Ultimately it's all about how you space it and off of what move.

 

Sol, if he has exhausted a good number of options in his current run of pressure is going to have to use S and HS in his gatling string.  Usually if done at a decent range he may cancel the (usually S, sometimes HS) into BR, gunflame, feint, 2S, or BB.  In these situations, the BR can be spaced in such a way as to give him frame advantage, or at least neutral frames.  But with a 3f 5K, it might as well be + frames.  So, most of the time you can try to jump out here, or beat the BR.  Not like, 5s gf br, more like, 5s, then GF/BR/BB/feint, ect.

 

2D>236K also fails on Chipp.  Thanks for the input, maybe if we get an exhaustive for each ill post it.  If I had more time I would run the tests myself, sorry that I don't guys!

In that range, just backdash. It'll beat every option, you can backdash yrc and punish him too. If you're cornered, you can try to BS the revolver or IB it and then DP.

[SynikaL]

What is Sin's oki game? What does he want after he knocks you down? 

[Destin]

Hit you when you stand up.

[KentoHardRok]

Its character specific... and situational I guess but vs. Sol for example you can 2.hs (3 hits) > BD for some good extra oki damage but I don't think it'll work after a long combo. most other character the best I can get is just 2.hs for maybe 2 hits that's about it.

[BabyMoses]

If I have meter, I like to meaty slide, which will either let me easily hit confirm on hit if they weren't blocking their toes; or on block, since slide is +, dash up into 2HS into his average mixups.

[NagorbMan]

The standard Oki is to safejump j.Hs I believe. Then you can either cancel to j.d or land into 2k or a throw if you're close enough. Though sins Oki is usually sacrificed to safely eat.

I haven't been playing for a while, but I'm pretty sure this is all still true.

[Zephyrion22]

Sin isn't really an oki character, since you'll often go for a refill after a knockdown but here are some classic okizemes  for the times you have enough calories to go for pressure.

- after 236K/2D ,you can meaty 2K/5K at the right distance into various frame traps/pressure resets, meaty 3K at max distance to bait all of the classic DPs or wait 214P[ hold 6 for a little while] deep jK/jS/jHS for safe jumps.

-after 236K/2D >236H[2] you can either 214K[6] > low airdash > delayed jK/JS or run a bit 214K[6] > deep jK/jS for safe jumps. You can also 214K[6] right on spot and you should have just enough time to  use a meaty.

 

Once they respect your safe jumps, you can go for mixups by adding jDs after the air attack, or go low/throw and hope you're not getting thrown yourself. If they try to Blitz it, you can just land and smack them with a good old point blank sweep into tons of damage. Bull Bash (214S) as an anti jump-out and Elk Hunt(236K) for frame advantage on oki are also good options after a knockdown if you are at range,  but you must have 25 meter to YRC them. If you don't, the other player  can (and will) just Blitz you/DP you out of it constantly. Once you established they can't just press buttons on your oki, you can go wild and be creative, like run up jH > RC into confirms or whatever.

[KentoHardRok]

Need some tips with Normals, more importantly 6P & 6H. 6P is such an important normal because of the anti-air properties and how much people love to jump in on you but the startup is rough and I feel like its mainly my reaction time that hurting me. I'm curious if you all use it ass your goto anti-air and what combo's do you use after it? I see in the 1.10 vid's JT does 6P>5S>5H>JP etc. but It seems so situational, thoughts???

Also 6H has some invincibility frames... at least thats what I read but whenever I try to take advantage of them it doesn't seem like it does, How do you use 6H outside of just following up after 5H?

 

Another note, would you all be opposed to a Video thread where we submit vids of our own matches for critiques? I know it would help me to get your opinions

[Zephyrion22]

Need some tips with Normals, more importantly 6P & 6H. 6P is such an important normal because of the anti-air properties and how much people love to jump in on you but the startup is rough and I feel like its mainly my reaction time that hurting me. I'm curious if you all use it ass your goto anti-air and what combo's do you use after it? I see in the 1.10 vid's JT does 6P>5S>5H>JP etc. but It seems so situational, thoughts???

Also 6H has some invincibility frames... at least thats what I read but whenever I try to take advantage of them it doesn't seem like it does, How do you use 6H outside of just following up after 5H?

 

Another note, would you all be opposed to a Video thread where we submit vids of our own matches for critiques? I know it would help me to get your opinions

 

6P is surprisingly finnicky to use, you'll need a lot of training and matches to get used to it and know what it beats out. Its startup is kinda decent for a 6P but you have to hit it really late, but not too late, otherwise, their jump-in will go under your waist and beat your upper body invul. Just dummy train it against good air normals until you get the hang of it !

About confirms, same story. you need to be aware of the distance at which it hits, and more importantly if it hits counter or not (you get  confirms like 214S> leap > sutff from  far + high counter). If it hits counter from up close, you can delay your 5S to make the route more stable and so on. Again, dummy training is the best option there, as mastering confirms from 6P is detrimental to Sin's game.

In the end 6P is your main anti air but not the only one. air-to-air is pretty damn important if you don't want your 6P to end up as bait material. I find  jK to be an awesome air to air (great gatlings and reverse gatlings on hit and block, comes out fast, hits far and all around Sin) that can net solid damage when you properly convert from it. For example, if you're  not too far from the corner you can jK>jS>j236H(2)>RC>air dash> land >5H>623S into usual confirms. 5H is a situational AA that I sometimes  use preemptively against slow but deep-hitting jump-ins (think May jH) or some 6P baits (think Elphelt air Bridal Express)  because of its surprisingly good vertical hitbox. Be wary though, it also has an extended hurtbox, huge whiff recovery and no invul, meaning that you need to be 100%  sure your move is coming out first and actually hitting something.

 

 

I didn't know 6H had invul, and if it does have some, it's probably too short/too partial to be really useful for that purpose. I mainly use it for whiff punishing when I want to squeeze more damage than with f.S. The good thing about it is that even if I somehow failed and it's blocked, I still end at +2 with good special + jump cancel options. Counter-hitting with this hurts so damn much that it can be worth your bet if you called out a move with counter hit recovery or simply to stuff something with a slow startup. Again should you fail, you can still YRC it for safety. It's still a somewhat situational move but it has its uses.

 

Erf, I wanted to be short but it ended up as a wall of text again xD. Hope this was helpful ! Also, A video thread would be great as seeing more Sin players is always a good thing !

[Zephyrion22]

Well, speaking of walls of text, I almost finished dustloop's strategy section for Sin, I also edited it a bit to make it less wall-ey so it should be easier to navigate between the different sections for information. Again, if you don't have anything better to do, feel free to  read it, correct, add or suggest things that would make it more accurate, understandable or lighter, or whatever, This wiki section is mostly the result of what I've seen from JP players along with a few infos from evernotes and JP tweets so I'm pretty sure there are a lot of improvements to be made. I also intend to clean up the combo section soon-ish to make it a bit more up-to-date !

[SQNR]

Well, speaking of walls of text, I almost finished dustloop's strategy section for Sin, I also edited it a bit to make it less wall-ey so it should be easier to navigate between the different sections for information. Again, if you don't have anything better to do, feel free to  read it, correct, add or suggest things that would make it more accurate, understandable or lighter, or whatever, This wiki section is mostly the result of what I've seen from JP players along with a few infos from evernotes and JP tweets so I'm pretty sure there are a lot of improvements to be made. I also intend to clean up the combo section soon-ish to make it a bit more up-to-date !

Nice work! As someone who doesn't play a lot of Sin it was pretty informative. 

[xlolxlolx]

6p is jump cancellable in 1.1 iirc

 

6hs is pretty limited outside of combos, plus on block but sin's too slow to do anything with it really

[FKGunBlaze]

Well, well. Seems it's time for practice...

[Dreiko]

6p is jump cancellable in 1.1 iirc

 

6hs is pretty limited outside of combos, plus on block but sin's too slow to do anything with it really

6H is also jump cancellable on block. I like it in blockstrings with 3K to close in the distance. Also 6H yrc grab is good too.

[KentoHardRok]

Yay patch day

[Eshi]

I just realized that I have the US version so I can't get the patch yet, RIP in piece me

[Valas Phoenix]

1.1's 236K CH on Women (and probably light weights) allows 6HS as follow up now, quick combo midscreen I've been trying: 236KCH>6HS>623S>214S>236[HS]>214K>airdash>JK>JS>JK>5HS>JK>JS>JK>5HS>214HS (215 on I-no, 5000 Cal) (Works on I-no, Ramlethal, Millia, May, Elphet, others to verify). I like the changes so far, loosing the retarded 236K>236HS(1hit)>236K>236HS(1hit)>214HS is a pity but overall I think he got some serious improvements.

 

Edit: no light weights, only women

[edollarports]

2D now has a delay cancel window, as does the second hit of 5H. 6P, technically, can also be delay canceled into specials now, because of the jump cancel.

[NagorbMan]

By delay cancel do you mean what anji had in +r where he can special cancel at any point in his recovery?