StylisH Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Well if people wanted an honest game, they got it. At least until número uno appears in the tier list and everyone complains about that char. You should get a cookie for saying this. As to the conversation about balance changes: Whenever changes are made to individual characters, there will most certainly be biased opinions on players' mains. What most people fail to realize is that if everyone was perfectly balanced, you'd be playing Mortal Kombat 2 without special moves or something along those lines. There will ALWAYS be top tier characters and low tier characters. It doesn't mean said characters are unbeatable (in most cases anyway), just that lower tiered characters have to work a bit harder than others. To me, it just seems like they want everyone to put in a bit more work to win in 2.0 but hey, I could be wrong.
redsilversnake Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 What most people fail to realize is that if everyone was perfectly balanced, you'd be playing Mortal Kombat 2 without special moves or something along those lines. There will ALWAYS be top tier characters and low tier characters. Reminder that this is a strawman argument. No one is asking for perfect balance, people are just upset that BB almost always has characters that are weak at almost every level of play, or are even worthless at a competitive level.
Dreiko Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Reminder that this is a strawman argument. No one is asking for perfect balance, people are just upset that BB almost always has characters that are weak at almost every level of play, or are even worthless at a competitive level. But...that's a worse issue for literally every other fighter out there than it is in BB. BB's bottom tiers are MUCH more comparatively formidable than those of other games. Also, do you REALLY think chars like Hazama, Relius or Rachel will be that low in CP2? I really just don't see it. If your problem is that there's too many bottom tiers who aren't getting a fair chance, you should logically be ecstatic about CP2 since many lower tier chars (Amane Tsubaki Arakune Bullet Izayoi Bang Makoto) all got significant buffs and the top tier nerfs that did happen don't seem severe enough to put them (significantly) below the now-buffed ex-low tiers in a way that, as you describe, will make them "be worthless competitively". Sure, some char will most likely end up not having a good chance to win...but a whole lot of them now DO seem to have a chance to win when they didn't in the past. How is that not an improvement?
redsilversnake Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 But...that's a worse issue for literally every other fighter out there than it is in BB. BB's bottom tiers are MUCH more comparatively formidable than those of other games. Not really. You do see less homogeny in tournament play, but not that much and especially not in results. BB has never been particularly better in that regard. Also, do you REALLY think chars like Hazama, Relius or Rachel will be that low in CP2? I really just don't see it. I said nothing about any of those characters. I was talking about the game's balance in general. If your problem is that there's too many bottom tiers who aren't getting a fair chance, you should logically be ecstatic about CP2 since many lower tier chars (Amane Tsubaki Arakune Bullet Izayoi Bang Makoto) all got significant buffs and the top tier nerfs that did happen don't seem severe enough to put them (significantly) below the now-buffed ex-low tiers in a way that, as you describe, will make them "be worthless competitively". Sure, some char will most likely end up not having a good chance to win...but a whole lot of them now DO seem to have a chance to win when they didn't in the past. How is that not an improvement? It's true that those characters got improved, but considering the precedent from previous games, it's best to only be cautiously optimistic for now. It honestly wouldn't be surprising if it turned out these changes don't actually help as much against the strongest characters.
Airk Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Tsubaki's 'improvements' are kinda dubious, honestly. She does more damage now, but that is pretty much the last and worst way to try to fix her issues. Especially since her charges don't add much damage now at all. It's like they gave up and said "F-it, we don't know how to balance charge, so we'll just make it do nothing and make you 'okay' all the time."
chzchan Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 It really is lazy on their part. Take how they buffed Bullet for example. Making her Drive cancellable into her special grabs opened up a ton of new routes to her because of the nature of her drive and drive resources. It both buffed her damage and made it easier for her to maintain momentum as well as get more creative with resource management in combos. It was such a simple change too. Goddamn genius. Instead of going in the direction of a more unique character defined by their drive like they did with Bullet, they really just made Tsubaki less defined by her "unique" mechanic and pretty much more like Ragna. They just went here ya go you finally get to deal the same damage as everyone else and your drive resource won't really add that much more damage so you can just forget about it.
Sashi Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Well, at least it's not the Noel treatment, where they pretty much steadily removed all the cool shit until there's nothing left. Except by cool, I mean bull.
chzchan Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I'm uninformed. What exactly did they do to Noel?
heavymetalmixer Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Well, at least it's not the Noel treatment, where they pretty much steadily removed all the cool shit until there's nothing left. Except by cool, I mean bull.If they made her not too spammable, then I'm happy. If they made her useless . . . well, there's nothing I can say.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 We might have to change the topic title to "Why my character isn't good, and why Team Blue suck at balance" given the fact that seems to be the only topic that ever comes up in this topic.
zaeris Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Or we could ban all those low tier players from talking xD
chzchan Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah I'm fine with that. We might have to change the topic title to "Why my character isn't good, and why Team Blue suck at balance" given the fact that seems to be the only topic that ever comes up in this topic. Well, it isn't just "Why my character isn't good, and why Team Blue suck at balance". I wanted to talk about how a few of changes being made aren't reflecting the supposed nature of the character. I used Tsubaki, an example that I can give solid information about without talking out of my ass, who is receiving the negative end of changes concerning nature. I also gave Bullet, an example where I am using information from my buddies that play Bullet as well as discussions that I had at my local FGC (because Bullet's changes were so huge that she was the biggest topic of conversation), who is receiving the positive end of changes concerning nature. So, though this doesn't have much to do with characters being good, some characters are getting some changes that align with their nature while some are not, and Team Blue did a great job with their adjustments efficiency-wise for some characters and not too great with others. The two characters that I used in the example just happen to be not that good, but the discussion I was bringing up had nothing to do with them not being good. More about the definition of characters by what they are able to do more than anything else. If I knew more about Hakumen I could have used him as an example because of his changes across versions/iterations, though I don't think I have enough experience to state what his nature is. Also nature of characters is really really subjective. Another thing that could be discussed.
Mudo Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Take how they buffed Bullet for example. Making her Drive cancellable into her special grabs opened up a ton of new routes to her because of the nature of her drive and drive resources. It both buffed her damage and made it easier for her to maintain momentum as well as get more creative with resource management in combos. It was such a simple change too. Goddamn genius. Her combos and damage got buffed a lot, but her neutral and pressure got worse with the drive bounce. Being special cancelled doesn't help at all, her grabs are easy to punish and only the charged projectile is positive on block.
chzchan Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I am pretty sure she can still maintain oki by ending combos with 623B as seen here, so I don't think that the new properties of her drive make it worse in any way combo-wise because she will never be ending a combo with a D move like she does currently. Even with SMP, 623B makes it so that the opponent cannot tech until they touch the ground. I'd say that the fact that she doesn't have to give up as much damage in a combo in order to end a combo while still having heat levels (because she is able to spend and gain more heat levels in a combo without spending meter) thanks to being able to cancel D moves is at least a subtle improvement to her neutral. I don't think there are really any downsides to the changes concerning her drive. I could be really wrong, though. Please correct me if you can because I don't main her.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah I'm fine with that. Well, it isn't just "Why my character isn't good, and why Team Blue suck at balance". I wanted to talk about how a few of changes being made aren't reflecting the supposed nature of the character. I used Tsubaki, an example that I can give solid information about without talking out of my ass, who is receiving the negative end of changes concerning nature. I also gave Bullet, an example where I am using information from my buddies that play Bullet as well as discussions that I had at my local FGC (because Bullet's changes were so huge that she was the biggest topic of conversation), who is receiving the positive end of changes concerning nature. So, though this doesn't have much to do with characters being good, some characters are getting some changes that align with their nature while some did not, and Team Blue did a great job with their adjustments efficiency-wise for some characters and not too great with others. The two characters that I used in the example just happen to be not that good, but the discussion I was bringing up had nothing to do with then not being good. More about the definition of characters by what they are able to do more than anything else. If I knew more about Hakumen I could have used him as an example because of his changes across versions/iterations, though I don't think I have enough experience to state what his nature is. Also nature of characters is really really subjective. Another thing that could be discussed. And that's what I mean, Team Blue pretty much make changes just for the sake of being different and probably don't really care about making the character good, it's why I can't really give a character set "nature" so to speak. I've been playing for a little over 2 years, but I think I can use Hakumen as an example: He's a character that excels in spacing and defense, keeping the opponent out and disrupting their offense with his counters. What is he actually like in CP? "Yo dawg, we herd u lieked damage". They pretty much made him into a one trick pony with his notable feature being his fuckton damage, and his defense options taking a hit(6D no longer being 1f, counters being blockable, etc. etc.) it just counter balances the(admitelly good) buffs he got, because it undermines the character's "intended" purpose. I thought he's supposed to play passively-defensively, but nope Arcsys are telling me to just shit out damage off dat 5C>Zan and I'll be good :V So yea, I don't really have high expectations off Team Blue because they're just gonna do whatever the fuck they want, ya know for "fun".
chzchan Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I'm not sure if it was completely intended (as in if they wanted to make him the way he is in CP), but OD did have a huge role in making him a character that shits out damage when he gets in a good hit with resources. He was able to do the same thing to a lesser extent with Mugen before, right? Though that wasn't his purpose/nature from your perspective, it was more of a something on the side that you could do but did not rely on.
StylisH Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 And that's what I mean, Team Blue pretty much make changes just for the sake of being different and probably don't really care about making the character good, it's why I can't really give a character set "nature" so to speak. I've been playing for a little over 2 years, but I think I can use Hakumen as an example: He's a character that excels in spacing and defense, keeping the opponent out and disrupting their offense with his counters. What is he actually like in CP? "Yo dawg, we herd u lieked damage". They pretty much made him into a one trick pony with his notable feature being his fuckton damage, and his defense options taking a hit(6D no longer being 1f, counters being blockable, etc. etc.) it just counter balances the(admitelly good) buffs he got, because it undermines the character's "intended" purpose. I thought he's supposed to play passively-defensively, but nope Arcsys are telling me to just shit out damage off dat 5C>Zan and I'll be good :V So yea, I don't really have high expectations off Team Blue because they're just gonna do whatever the fuck they want, ya know for "fun". The big thing for me was that it seemed more beneficial to RTSD instead of playing a calculated footsie/neutral game. To me it just didn't seem like Hakumen.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I'm not sure if it was completely intended (as in if they wanted to make him the way he is in CP), but OD did have a huge role in making him a character that shits out damage when he gets in a good hit with resources. He was able to do the same thing to a lesser extent with Mugen before, right? Though that wasn't his purpose/nature from your perspective, it was more of a something on the side that you could do but did not rely on. Mugen needs 8 stars and is more of a Yolo move honestly(unless your name is Poropiccho), because you could use those 8 stars for something else. OD helped, but then you got shit like the aformentioned Zan, one 5C>Zan gets you like 5k. The big thing for me was that it seemed more beneficial to RTSD instead of playing a calculated footsie/neutral game. To me it just didn't seem like Hakumen. And this is what I mean, everyone's got their interpretation of what a character should be like, none of which is really right or wrong. I can't help but wonder what the fuck would go through their heads to make Hakumen a Rushdown character tho.
chzchan Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Hmm, I guess I am in the wrong when talking about some objective nature then. Maybe I should be referring to how the character is generally played because, even though people play characters in different ways, there will always be a more efficient way in doing things that someone's gameplan will trend towards unless that person tries as hard as they can to keep themselves from playing like that. There's this one japanese Hakumen I remember seeing play full on rushdown by using 214A and 623A nonstop and using OD out of hits that were blocked to apply pressure and stuff. It was scary but surprisingly effective.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I mean at that point, just go with what works. Not every player has the same gameplan and some just go ham.
StylisH Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I mean at that point, just go with what works. Not every player has the same gameplan and some just go ham. Perhaps. but there are some characters who the devs seem to push into a particular playstlyle. I know everyone has their individual preferences, I'm just making an observation.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Perhaps. but there are some characters who the devs seem to push into a particular playstlyle. I know everyone has their individual preferences, I'm just making an observation. Man, when I see people like Kogatan go ham with Ragna, it makes me question everything lol.
Dark Ranger88 Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Tsubaki's 'improvements' are kinda dubious, honestly. She does more damage now, but that is pretty much the last and worst way to try to fix her issues. Especially since her charges don't add much damage now at all. It's like they gave up and said "F-it, we don't know how to balance charge, so we'll just make it do nothing and make you 'okay' all the time." It really is lazy on their part. Instead of going in the direction of a more unique character defined by their drive like they did with Bullet, they really just made Tsubaki less defined by her "unique" mechanic and pretty much more like Ragna. They just went here ya go you finally get to deal the same damage as everyone else and your drive resource won't really add that much more damage so you can just forget about it. I completely agree with you two on Tsubaki. They can do so much more with her drive. I personally think they should give the drive versions of her specials unique and useful properties (like head/body/foot/projectile/throw invul, return 22D unblockable?, reflect projectiles, plus frames on block, crossup 214D?, instant overhead?) instead of just being combo tools. I would also like to see her get a move that costs multiple stocks, but have adequate utility or damage for the resources it costs. Like Hakumen's Zantetsu or Tsubaki for example. That way Tsubaki players would have more of a reason to get lots of stocks, and her gameplan would actually revolve around getting and using stocks ------------------- Another thing I thought about is toying with the recovery frames of her charge cancels. Specifically, making it so that charge cancelling with lower amounts of stock (0 stocks - 2 stocks) gives you heavy to slight plus frames, while doing the same thing with more stocks (2+ stocks - 5 stocks) would leave Tsubaki at frame disadvantage. But IDK that seems tricky to implement
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