[Xrd] Tier Discussion

[D.R.F.]

In +R Venom vs I-No was definitely I-No's favor, several players told me it was 7-3 which I thought is a stretch, but no doubt it's in her favor. In AC though, it was definitely Venom's favor pretty badly. I've heard that I-No wins the matchup in this game, but I think it's pretty close, maybe about even or slightly in her favor?

Don't forget I-No vs May. Wasn't that matchup hell?

[Ryd']

AC May shut I-No down pretty solidly, yes.  I-No had a lot of trouble challenging May, and was dizzied about as easily as Dizzy vs Eddie.

[Destin]

Sol has sorta auto JI moves like AC. Ino has vertical chemical love bunnies.

[GKHiryu]

Going back to Bedman discussion. I think he's the stellar example of "loyalists only" character. Unless you put in a lot of work and lose a metric ton of matches to get the hang of his neutral and defensive options there's no way you can be threatening with him. On the plus side, he does require noticeably less training mode time, hell the guy literally has 5 combos to learn and all of them require less than ten inputs each.

That said, BE is also player dependant. While he offers a lot of options thanks to airdashes and jump cancel pressure, if the opponent is familiar with those you'll be hard pressed not to get beaten out of the air.

 

To cut my rambling - Bedman's offense is very risky. Every jump cancel you need to perform to shorten distance is a grave risk and you cannot score more than one free mixup after knockdow. Very strong character if you gamble right. With that said - many people without proper knowledge will rate him higher than he already is due to lack of matchup knowledge. Hell I still get free combos off of people pressing buttons while waking up into deja vu taskB. Bedman is however very easy to break if you know the matchup. I think he'll never escape B tier in current balance.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Sol also inherited 2S-6HS from HOS. There's probably bits and pieces hanging out all over the place, but most of AC/+R stuff was trashed.

[Destin]

Sol also inherited 2S-6HS from HOS. There's probably bits and pieces hanging out all over the place, but most of AC/+R stuff was trashed.

That is 30% of the reason I am playing him, maybe 40%.  If he had HOS's 2s, all would be well in my world.

 

(Thats a fucking lie, give me dizzy ARC!)

[StylisH]

That is 30% of the reason I am playing him, maybe 40%.  If he had HOS's 2s, all would be well in my world.

 

(Thats a fucking lie, give me dizzy ARC!)

 

Motion seconded, although despite my issues with I-No being easier to play, I am enjoying having a new main to play with as Dizzy calmly waits for her turn. 

[Kikuichimonji]

That is 30% of the reason I am playing him, maybe 40%.  If he had HOS's 2s, all would be well in my world.

 

(Thats a fucking lie, give me dizzy ARC!)

He basically does have HOS's 2S. It's +3 on block in this game.

[Dime_x]

What are people thinking of the new characters elph, leo and sin?

I dont have enough experience with gg to give anywhere near a valid opinion. But my gameplay perspectives seem to go like:

Leo: most effective hp in the game after pot, also has the most limited movement options besides pot. Does good damage and has solid, yet predictable, oki. Neutral feels sluggish due to not having a run, but having a slowish dash instead. Has some good pokes in S and HS and j.HS. Powerful fireball game if he gets time to set it up and follow it in. Slowish P and K attacks, but has a good reversal.

Seems to have issues in most matchups because characters can either out fireball him such as ram, or out maneuver him such as chipp. Relies on dust to have an overhead in regular stance.

Elph:

Seems like a bit of a jack of all trades character, but no meterless reversal. Her 5S seems outranged by much of the cast, but she has amazing damage and pressure up close as well as antizoning abilities via her far pineapple. Her unblockables are said to be mostly a gimmick against people that grind the ways out with their characters. She has easy meaties via pineapple throw which hits on the first frame and allows her to pressure after knockdown very well. Rifle stance needs more exploring as it seems underwhelming so far.

Sin:

Dont know much about him at all except he has very abusive things for his calorie meter. Can cancel "calorie using specials" into one another near infinitely as long as he has the calories to do so, which allows him to put lots of hitboxes on the screen in a small amount of time in exchange for calorie useage, does lots of damage as well.

Anyone willing to say a few things on how these characters are panning out right now?

[iBeK3n]

Bits

I'd like to comment on Sin. Not to sound rude, but what you've said was a serious oxymoron there.

Can cancel "calorie using specials" into one another near infinitely as long as he has the calories to do so"

How does that make it near infinite if he has to respect his calorie meter? Just to let you know, a single special takes about 1k, canceling has a multiplier where the 2nd special and so on will take more (x2 I believe). With 10k Calorie as an average calorie bar, I can tell you it goes out quickly if you try to abuse deathblows.

It's also highly ineffective to pressure that way. So, no, it's not "abusive" by any means. Sin is incredibly docile once he has no calorie left. Nobody wants to be left in that starving recovery, nor do they want to end a combo where they have only one special in stock left without eating.

I agree whole-heartedly with you on Leo though. Dude's fun but his mobility is gimped.

[Destin]

He basically does have HOS's 2S. It's +3 on block in this game.

Hos's was much faster and longer range IIRC.  More of a poke, less of a pressure string tool.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think range and hitbox was mostly the same, the speed difference might have created the illusion of a range/hitbox difference since you'd be hitting the button much more often and it would be more likely to hit in a poke situation.

 

HOS 2S was also much less advantageous on block. It was +1 in Slash, but in AC/+R they made it -1. Neutral on block with a perfect CC. In comparison, Sol's 2S has always been slower, but more advantageous; it has always been +3 on block, IIRC. The only thing that makes it more HOS-like is the addition of the 2S-6HS gatling and its ability to combo on CH. Even then, the situation still ends different (you get hard knockdown instead of stagger and no RC for combo followup).

[Destin]

I think range and hitbox was mostly the same, the speed difference might have created the illusion of a range/hitbox difference since you'd be hitting the button much more often and it would be more likely to hit in a poke situation.

 

HOS 2S was also much less advantageous on block. It was +1 in Slash, but in AC/+R they made it -1. Neutral on block with a perfect CC. In comparison, Sol's 2S has always been slower, but more advantageous; it has always been +3 on block, IIRC. The only thing that makes it more HOS-like is the addition of the 2S-6HS gatling and its ability to combo on CH. Even then, the situation still ends different (you get hard knockdown instead of stagger and no RC for combo followup).

I'm pretty sure the hitbox actually extended out further, but it's hardly worth a discussion post HOS.  

[RWA Announcer]

Here's the most recent Japanese Console Tier List, as of January 8th, courtesy of StunEdge/Ho-Chan, in order from Left to Right.

 

S: Milia, Zato-1, Ramlethal, Faust, Elphelt

 

A: Sol, I-No, Venom, Sin, Ky, Chipp

 

B: Other  (May and Bedman)

 

C: Slayer, Axl, Potemkin.

 

Not Sure/Unranked: Leo Whitefang

 

http://www.twitter.com/hc0519/status/553103296995794944

[Destin]

Seems pretty reasonable.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

I can agree with that, though IMO Leo should be ranked B. Guy is interesting but nothing extraordinary.

[burningvigor]

Not really surprised at all especially at the S tier list.

[RWA Announcer]

I haven't spent a TON of time with him myself, but from what I've seen of him, even in the hands of Kazunoko, there's nothing that just immediately jumps out at me as crazy, so I'd agree with you Kyosuke.  I think StunEdge just left him off because the newest character and certainly hasn't had the time to be considered fully developed, especially since he's fresh meat as opposed to a returning veteran.

[mynus]

I think StunEdge just left him off because the newest character and certainly hasn't had the time to be considered fully developed, especially since he's fresh meat as opposed to a returning veteran.

 

It's not Stunedge's list. He tweeted it which was debated and compiled from top Jp players.

[chun_li1]

The road for Millias and Venoms current placing was also very long. Im sure some still remember the Doomsday Gloom, the top japanese Millia players had back then. Shit needs time to develop.

 

 

PS. Any vids of Kazunoko taking Leo out for a spin? Im sure, that character fits his style.

[Dime_x]

There are some things with leo that are still highly unexplored. His S fireball yrc is like sols gunflame yrc and leo makes good use of yrc in general with his ability to neutral yrc and then dash in and use his now pumped up 5H (its faster there because the opponent is slowed down)

From the 5H, leo has options:

Gatling into 6H to get closer and be at +5frame advantage

Or cancel into 236S for a knockdown confirm on hit, or minus 1 on block and pretty close to the opponent.

Or cancel into 236H for a crossup that is plus 1 on block from the front or the back.

And leos neutral is a bit better than what is currently being shown. His S fireball is extremely fast startup and covers a big part of the screen. It covers characters trying to ground poke leo or ground fireball him since it has 2 projectile hits on it. Doesnt go full screen but thats ok since no one really wants leo full screen since they dont want to deal with H fireballs huge hitbox and 4 hits.

For pokes leo has a good amount that are plus on block:

5K,c.S,6K,6H,236H,2S, stance K, stance H, stance S

and his 5D and first rekka are only minus 1 respectively.

Doesnt make him top tier nor elevate him to A status on their own, but he does have some standout qualities to make a decent case for himself.

[DaiAndOh]

It's not Stunedge's list. He tweeted it which was debated and compiled from top Jp players.

Interesting, I had heard it was Sharon's list? Or Sharon was simply the one to tweet it out?

[greatfernman]

Interesting, I had heard it was Sharon's list? Or Sharon was simply the one to tweet it out?

it's sharon's personal list

https://twitter.com/icesword19xx/status/553071420641521666

"個人的キャラランク"

[RWA Announcer]

Good catch Mynus.  I just realized he mentioned he was just Re-Tweeting it in his post.  I was sleepy when I found it, heh.  Nice to hear an opinion from a fellow Ramlethal, and a top one at that!  As for video of Kazunoko's Leo, there's about 3 hours and 22 minutes of him playing him on the GodsGarden stream in some Ranked matches in their Twitch archives.

[TAI-X]

Leo probably won't get a solid ranking until the arcade players get their hands on him, by which time the game will have been rebalanced.

 

One thing I can say about this game - Compared to AC/+R, it really feels like you have to WORK to get damage with Potemkin. The shift to widescreen and the loss of his hyper armor Force Break definitely play a role in this.