confusedxphreak Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 It's invulnerability frames must be very limited because I often get hit out of it while I'm still in the air.
Mizzet Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 I found it quite funny when AkSys on Facebook put up a couple of pictures with all the new stuff that characters gained from CT > CS. Belial Edge, new distortions, etc. For Noel there was just "You can j.4d in the air now" and all I could think of was the new unsuspecting Noel players in for a world of hurt when they try it.
dragontamer Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 yeah.. j.4d is definitely punishable. Lots of things to do. They can wait for you to land then hit you, or simply just grab. Even if it was air to air, they can land and grab or fall and hit you. What would you say about baiting AAs with j.4D ?? Most AAs are terrible on whiff... Ragna's 6A will take 24 frames to recover on whiff (18 recover, 6 active), and Rachel's 6A will take 25. Its a possible fatal, right?? Is it something that can be explored, or do you think its too gimmicky?
Mizzet Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 I've tried it in training mode, set a Noel to j.4d through my AA, even slow AA's like Mu's 2c allow her to recover in time to block j.4d. So I wouldn't expect to get a hit of any sort unless the opponent is mashing. It would be fine if j.4d didn't perform that little 3rd jump that buys the opponent enough time to recover. You'll probably score a primer break though, but then you'll be stuck in drive against a blocking opponent so it sort of nullifies any benefit you gained. I honestly hope they do something to j.4d in the future, I only ever press it when I'm winning and feeling confident, and even then I end up regretting it half the time.
mooyang90 Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 The only thing you can bait with j. 4d is a DP. It'll dodge the DP and you can get a free drive combo. It has some uses against Nu's who love to use 2d a lot, and maybe Hazama's who love to anti-air ouroborous...but that's it. Trust me, I tried everything I can think of with this move. It's just not very good, stop grasping for straws people.
archling Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 What would you say about baiting AAs with j.4D ?? Most AAs are terrible on whiff... Ragna's 6A will take 24 frames to recover on whiff (18 recover, 6 active), and Rachel's 6A will take 25. Its a possible fatal, right?? Is it something that can be explored, or do you think its too gimmicky? Not possible. I'll confirm Mizzet's findings with frame data. j.4d is 15F startup, 3F active, 50F recovery and only 7~26F is invincible. So, what that means is that even if you managed to respond to AA's on reaction, you will get hit out of it. And according to Mizzet, if you psychic it, they can just block it. Lol, I'm sure there's some godly timing out there that'll work, but honestly, it's not practical. j.4d is shit and I only use it to troll. Like burst combos! Oh, 236a dash 6c is a pretty cool troll combo too.
Mizzet Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 236a [66c 236a] x N If we're talking about shenanigans, my favourite troll thing to do is run at the someone waking up and jump over and meaty j.d on their recovery, then 214d when I land for a second crossup.
archling Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 haha, j.d on wake up >_< That gimmick might actually dodge uppercuts too since her hitbox is all the way up at her legs. Sounds like a pretty good dp/throw bait! Too bad it's so punishable on block >_< Oh Noel, you're so gimmicky.
Mizzet Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 It actually clashes with stuff like inferno divider, very cool but not something I would do unless I'm winning and want to mess around. Never really experimented much with it since it's so gimmicky, maybe you can cancel into j.236236d after the clash or something, lol. Also, if you space it right, even if your opponent blocks the j.d, you'll land too far to be punished easily, but still near enough for 214d to cross up again. Situationally useful against Noels that like to spam drive on wakeup. Jump, see them go into drive, hit j.d and profit, if not, just land and resume pressure. Alternative to poking with 5a/2b and getting hopped over by random 2d's if you mistime it.
dragontamer Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Not possible. I'll confirm Mizzet's findings with frame data. j.4d is 15F startup, 3F active, 50F recovery and only 7~26F is invincible. So, what that means is that even if you managed to respond to AA's on reaction, you will get hit out of it. And according to Mizzet, if you psychic it, they can just block it. Lol, I'm sure there's some godly timing out there that'll work, but honestly, it's not practical. j.4d is shit and I only use it to troll. Like burst combos! Oh, 236a dash 6c is a pretty cool troll combo too. Wait, what? Its invincible through the active frames? 7-26 invincibility is larger than most anti-airs... 19 frames of invincibility? But somehow, I don't think that frame data is accurate. Because Noel still has to fall to the ground before she can hit...? So is it fall + 15F startup? Otherwise, I really like the look of that frame data. (aside from the only safe "out" is chain-revolver "pressure"). Of course, it says nothing about the crappy hitbox but yeah... something is off. The frame data you gave makes it sound very good to me (so... clearly it must be wrong...) BTW: where did you get the frame data? And what level is it, and when can you start the next chain revolver attack? Or hell, just give me the frame data... in english? :-p
Shabby Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 What I'd like to know is will j.4d avoid Tagers Atomic Collider when Noel is magnetized. I have a tendency to fall for Tager mind games and air tech when I'm magnetized and they get a free reset because of it.
FunkyP Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 its looks to be 15 frames on the ground, and 7-26F are in the air
archling Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 I got the frame data from the jp guide book. I'll do my best to translate the important bits. (Note, I also read it wrong the first time round when I mentioned 15F start up; sorry for the confusion) Anyway! - 15F startup after landing - 3F active - 50F recovery - 7~26F invincible after input. This means she has about half a second of invincibility in the air. NO INVINCIBILITY AFTER LANDING. - Ground hit leads to non wallbounce knockdown (?) - Air hit leads to some special property that I have no clue about - Level 4 attack - after landing, 18~42F window to input next chain revolver input So, there's really no where in the guide that says there's invincibility when she's in the air BEFORE she lands. She only gets invincibility starting on the 7th frame after she lands. This makes sense, as I clearly remember getting anti aired. That means that any weird stuff going on with moves whiffing is due to hitbox. EDIT: The above paragraph is mostly wrong. I did some testing it and I misinterpreted the guide. There's no invincibility after landing. Invincibility occurs at the 7th frame after you input the command to the 26th frame. This means that if you're still in the air after the after the 26th frame, you will get hit.
mooyang90 Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 What I'd like to know is will j.4d avoid Tagers Atomic Collider when Noel is magnetized. I have a tendency to fall for Tager mind games and air tech when I'm magnetized and they get a free reset because of it. You never ever airtech when magnetized against Tager, period. j .4d certainly doesn't anything lol. This move sucks people I'm sad we wasted 2 pages talking about it.
archling Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 You never ever airtech when magnetized against Tager, period. j .4d certainly doesn't anything lol. This move sucks people I'm sad we wasted 2 pages talking about it. I had nothing else to do.
DC Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Actually I like to airtech air super if I know they are gonna Atomic Collider. Air super stops you from moving. Also airtech j.d works if you're above their hand.
dragontamer Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 I got the frame data from the jp guide book. I'll do my best to translate the important bits. (Note, I also read it wrong the first time round when I mentioned 15F start up; sorry for the confusion) Anyway! - 15F startup after landing - 3F active - 50F recovery - 7~26F invincible - Ground hit leads to non wallbounce knockdown (?) - Air hit leads to some special property that I have no clue about - Level 4 attack - after landing, 18~42F window to input next chain revolver input So, there's really no where in the guide that says there's invincibility when she's in the air BEFORE she lands. She only gets invincibility starting on the 7th frame after she lands. This makes sense, as I clearly remember getting anti aired. That means that any weird stuff going on with moves whiffing is due to hitbox. Thats really good on block. Thats something like +15 frames if you continue into chain-revolver, and invincibility through your attack. (what kind? Is it full invincibility or just upper-body?) If its full-invincibility... it means they can't mash you out of it if the move starts (kinda like Jin's 623B) At least, if things are similar to CT... +15 frames is more than enough to hit (Drive) 5A and then react to a reversal with (Drive) 214D. (if 5A whiffs, smack 214D to avoid the incomming reversal. On hit, hitconfirm into a combo. On block, attempt to safely exit chain-revolver asap). So the trick is forcing your opponents to block a slow-ass move that they can react to (kinda like Drive 6C ). 15 startup after landing... thats really slow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfZkLl4o3ww#t=2m18s The hitbox doesn't look too strange... well, I'll test it when I get my copy of CS...
archling Posted July 9, 2010 Posted July 9, 2010 Guide just says "invincible" so i'm guessing full invincibility. Keep in mind they can easily mash out during the 6F where you don't have invincibility, or mash out while you're in the air. Very easy to get swat out of the air or hit on the ground.. or (again) grabbed. Anyway, the move sucks, stop discussing it =P
Runis Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 Now that we know j4D is invuln on landing, can't you use it as a wake up option? sure 3f isn't really that meaty, but still. It could lead to a couple of gimmicks.
mooyang90 Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 Everyone use j. 4d. It's godlike, best move ever. If you see me online and are playing against me in ranked, use it a lot please I don't know what to do against it =(
Mizzet Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDdQvtTn-OU&translated=1 Not really a Noel video, but I found this over at the Tager forums. Nice short vid showing both players' options after a gadget finger/neutral situation where you're standing beside Tager. Most of us probably know this by heart already, but new players might find it educational. It's in Japanese but pretty easy to understand.
Runis Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAROINGkBqw I don't have the game yet, and it's hard to test on live opponents, but can someone tell me if the 5k+ 3C combo's need to be CH? does it require a dashed 3C? the second one mentions that if you put 22B in between the 6C and 6D that it works on al characters. can someone confirm?
Mizzet Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 Nope, don't need CH, normal 3c will do. That video was recorded at an arcade, so the CH would probably be just random chance, it's an actual fight and not a setup. Man, but if that Noel can bust out those last few 3c combos in a match situation, that's pretty good. Anyway, 6c 6d and especially 6c 22b 6d are very spacing dependant, you want to hit the guy as high 22b will allow so you can 6d before he reaches the floor and techs. The only person I can replicate it reliably on is Tager. The modified ender to the combo is very interesting though, after j.d into 6d 4d 5c JC j.c 6c j.c j.236c, now that I've a proper training mode on console BBCS I'll explore it a little bit more.
Halcyone3 Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 couldn't u use those 5k 3C combos to punish DPs? or does she have something more damaging to do in those situations?
Mizzet Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 If you can do them, why not? They're not exactly very easy though, especially the last bit, it's like 6d (wait) 4d (wait longer) 5c and so on, you're always on the knife edge of proration and spacing with regards to dropping the combo, plus j.236c ender means you lose oki. Still, if your execution is that good go ahead, you deserve that 5k. Personally I'm sticking to braindead easy 4.2k from CH 5d. Lot's of corner push with the option to end with Fenrir if they're in the corner after 236d for 5k.
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