Tong

Things didnt go so well last time DL users tried to create a tier list back in BBCS, some people just didnt understand the game were taking part of the discussion and to make matters worse they didnt have the maturity to listen and understand, often getting "opinions" mixed up with straight and real "facts". And from what I usually read here, I still think another tier list discussion isnt going to end well...

There you go: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/index.html

Remember kids, Jin's 6B has foot invul! And most 2A's have foot attribute, so...

This is a very common misconception about reaction, players will always see the amount of startup frames and think "Oh this is slow enough for me, I can beat it with that" without giving consideration to the situation the move itself is used. It's possible to make anyone block very slow and punishable moves if they're used outside the context they're expecting. When you 5A or even 2C's Jin's 6B it means the player was being very predictable with it, like doing 5C> 6B or 2AA> 6B everytime, and yea that's not very hard to counter at all if you're expecting it. Just a slower move's startup doesnt tell us enough if it would be reactable or not if put to good use.

Meter (and by that I mean Heat) reliance is never a good thing, it usually means the character needs to spend resources to be on par with characters that does the same things without meter. And he only gets this extra meter from confirms and offensive actions, which means that if he's put in disadvantage quickly he wont be able to reverse the situation easily, and in game full of rushdown monsters, and characters with better normals than him, this happens alot. The best characters either become even better with meter (by inflicting more damage or a harder to block mixup) or use it supplement their poor defensive tools. Read @Moy_X7's post again and you will see what BlazBlue's standards for good and bad are.

Perfect, this is the kind of analysis and considerations that should be made to rate a character's performance in the game. Another element that can make a character strong is their ability to deal with wakeup options by having tools that either punish delay tech and rolls, without having to guess, or limits their options to "block or reversal", Litchi and 1.1 Jin had tools like that. This falls under the category of good okizeme but I just wanted to be specific about the wakeup aspect.

And here we are again talking about things discussed on the last page, and yet again, separating characters inherent strengths/weaknesses from Drives. When you say that "characters with strong drives can't be bad, no matter what you do to them" then you're failing to consider the other attributes that make him strong. I really dont want to turn this into a character thread but I have to make my point here, I'll try to keep it short. So you wanna talk about Hazama? Then let's talk Hazama. Hazama is a rushdown character with very good mobility, thanks to his Drive. And on top of that he has many good close up moves, like a very fast and deceptive overhead, a bunch of moves that are plus on block, a freaking command grab and good mixup options. His defensive options includes extremely good antairs, that can beat many approaches and a pseudo-DP that can be useful. One of his strongest attributes is being able to convert *anything* into substantial damage if he has at least 50 meter, which isnt really a problem for him. Ultimately his strengths (mentioned unti now) are good and versatile normals, good mixups (which translates into good potential to pressure the opponent) and above-average damage. These things count and matter alot in BlazBlue. And where does the Drive come in? It basically boosts and enhance all those attributes he already has, like he can get in *easily* because of his Drive. Some characters dont even no choice but to block and let him to his stuff, and that's very very good! And even more, it gives him even more strengths because besides giving him excelent mobility it also let's his control space. Space control is another thing that counts and matters alot in BlazBlue. His Drive only completes and enhances his already strong attributes Oh sure, he doesnt have a reliable reversal... but that it's not a problem for Hazama at all. Why? Because all it takes for Hazama is a gap to jump, throw his chain and literally dart the fuck out where he is, and as long as he's out of the corner and far from you he controls space, and against certain characters even the match. So there you have it, a character with good mobility, good zoning, good normals, good damage, good mixups and defensive mechanics that help him alot to compesate his weakness? How the hell can a character like this be bad? It can't, he's been designed around the very concept of versatily and areas where he excels at. Of course Hazama will always be a good character, by concept alone. But his Drive only completes and enhances his already strong attributes (I said it twice because it's important). And you're seriously telling me he would still be solid without good mixups, good damage, good and versatile normals and ability to convert into massive damage? I'm not convinced.

Really? I thought your point was: And in my interpretation (and probably the others') is that you said: "Having a good Drive (what is a 'good' Drive?) protects characters against stupid changes (whatever you mean by that, what's stupid?) to other things (what other things?), but sometimes they can become a weaker character". Now, this sounds like you were focused too much on the Drives to evaluate how a characters performs on each game, which led me to my post explaning that wasnt the case at all. As I said in my post, certain characters get better mileage out of their Drives, but also that wasnt always the case. Read carefully again. If we're really on the same page here (or even book), then be more objective (give good examples) and less ambiguous (avoid subjective terms like "stupid", "things", improper terminology etc). It will be much more easier to understand what you're trying to say

Characters are built around their Drives? That may be true for some characters, like Rachel who is by far the most well designed character in BlazBlue, but for most? It's nothing more than an extra attack set with an added effect or attribute associated to it. For others they aren't even needed for their gameplan, Dreiko gave us the CS1 Bang as an example but it's true for most of his versions. Hakumen is another example of character than can be strong without even needing his Drive, if he really was designed around his Drive I'm sure his counters would be strong enough to change his gameplay completely. But it's very hard to balance a Drive like that, you can either end up with a very strong tool, that could literally destroy other characters' gameplan, or a bad tool that has very restricted uses. Which is why ASW has decided to go for a safer compromise: "You know what screw the counters let's give this guy good normals, nice damage etc, at least this way he has something to fight back in case the nerfed counters we implemented dont help at all". And this is why I dislike thinking of Drives whenever I want to evaluate a character's performance, Drives just make no sense most of the time because they are either the core of a character, just an additional movelist or have a small role for the character. It feels so subjective that I can perfectly name GG characters' "Drives", even though they dont have any. So yea, avoid thinking about character in terms of "Drives" and think more about their strengths, weaknesses and how effective their gameplan is in the context of the game. It's easier and gives you a better picture of ANY game thinking that way. I didnt agree with you because having a "good core gimmick (your words)" isnt part of the equation that results in character strength/weakness.

Ok, what do you define as "gimmick" in your context? Because it has a completely differenty meaning to me and most players. A gimmick, for me and most players, is a synonym for Shenanigan which is basically a "trick" that you won't see often. When someone says "Tager is a gimmicky" character, it means he's a character full of these little tricks. In BlazBlue they may include Tech Traps, Resets or an unconventional form of mixup that is really hard to predict and beat at first. These things are known as gimmicks, and you will hear it alot being used here around this context, of a trick. That's why I was really confused when you said "Soul Eater is a crap gimmick", because it's not a gimmick (even though there are some that involves the use of Soul Eater). So I'll assume that by "gimmick" you meant either the Drive mechanic or a character's special gauge. But even then, are they the only thing responsible for determining which character is strong or weak in BlazBlue, like your post says? How is a strong character in BlazBlue like, what do they have the weaker dont? When you understand that you will see that the game (either because of it's systems or mechanics or because how it's designed) favors characters that have certain attributes (Like good damage (either off random confirms or combos), good oki, good ways to enforce pressure, good mobility, good normals etc), and that's where you will notice that the weaker characters either dont have enough of those attributes nor are good enough in one. Why was CS1 Tsubaki a bad character? Simply put, because she didnt have enough of those good attributes normally and had to depend heavily on her charge gauge to be just good at some of them. But what's the point of that if characters like Ragna had already them from start and never needed to rely on meter? CS1 Ragna does everything CS1 Tsubaki does without needing to rely on a Drive mechanic. The CS1 tops were either very good at dealing damage, enforcing pressure/oki or having better tools in general. Do mechanics or systems matter in these cases? Of course they do, but if they benefit the strongest character then they're poorly implemented because they're here to make life easier for all characters, even the weakest ones. I believe that CPEX has accomplished a good balance by simplifying rather than giving every character a point they excel, which is what GG has been doing for years with (apparent) success. The result is the same? Yes, but you end up with a more simple game, for better or worse.

BlazBlue just needs new and more interesting mechanics/systems already. I dont think there's anything wrong with CP 2.0, the game looks fairly balanced to me, but even when good balancing is achieved there is still the feeling that... the game is essentially the same and plays just like the previous version. I could've been easily called CP 1.2. I still believe we're going to get BB4 this year and I really hope they step the game up by adding the depth BB needs.

This is not really advisable, Hell's Fang has terrible recovery and is punishable if Instant Blocked (which is not a problem if you keep throwing it around). It may work once a while and catch some people off guard, but it's not a solid or consistent gameplan you can rely on in this matchup (or any for the matter), which is what every player tries to achieve, solid and consistent play. It's perfectly possible to beat Valk's neutral with safer and more reliable tools, like well spaced 5B's, j.C's (j.A is also a very good and useful airpoke) and 6A's are good enough to counter most of his advances during wolf mode,and that's what should be done for most part. Patience is also the key during neutral as the matchup becomes easier when he runs out of wolf meter. I sincerely can't contribute with this matchup because there are literally no good Valk players where I live.

@NecroTheReaper, pretty sure that's Bandit Bringah'! It shouldn't be hard to Blitz anyways... you have like forever to punish it. And I was talking about the upclose Bandit Revolvers anyways.

@Blade, if you block a Bandit Revolver you can throw them because it's negative on block.

Just because he has more options it definitely doesnt make him braindead, if you stay predictable with your blockstrings they will eventually figure a way out and you will lose the pressure in every attempt. You're aiming for a compromise between staying safe, forcing them to block while keeping the pressure, and then going for riskier options to get in. And that's where his new blockstrings help. The new options he got in CP2 either give him safer pressure enders (6A> 2D, 5C> 6C) or more versatile and less risky ways to keep up the pressure. I personally like 5C>6C because it gives Ragna a jump cancelable option at ranges he would have to give up on pressure before, and 6C>5D (it's tight and probably can be delayed to create a frametrap) will be useful to keep them honest. In general his options off 5C are so much better now, so it's easier to start something at ranges Ragna usually plays.

If by bar you mean heat gauge, then if you dont use it at all it means you didnt want to strengthen your offensive/defensive options. Meter usage in CP, for most characters, comes down to: More Damage off confirms (in the form of enhanced combos extensions), making unsafe blocked moves safe and better defensive options (like CA or safer reversals). Meter gain is also scaled in way that you won't get much meter unless you're really dominating the match or in low health, so you have to think wisely and consider the situation before spending meter, but the general rule of thumb is that if you have enough meter to do a combo that will finish an opponent, then you should burn all the meter.

To be honest, I dont think they have interest in making blockstrings/defense tighter in BB unless you're a character designed around this.

From Midscreen to Near-Corner (P1 starting position) (air hit) CH j.C> 5B> 5D(1)> 214B>>delay 214D> dash 5B> 5C> TK j.214C> dash 5B> 5C> 5D> 236D (DC)> dash 6A> 5D> 214A>>214D Requires: -- Damage: 3135 Heat Gain: 27% Lifesteal: -- Video Reference Midscreen (Has fullscreen carry) 5B> 5C (ODC)> dash 5B> 5C> 5D (DC)> 236D (DC)> dash 5B> 5C> TK j.214B>>delay 214D> dash 5B> 5C> 5D~ Requires: Burst Icon, 91-100% Life Damage: 4236 Heat Gain: 30% Lifesteal: -- Video Reference

They just need to chill, sit down, get drunk together and shit talk all night haha! It's the only way to solve these little differences. But a FT30 would be nice too!

Awesome! Thank you for making these bro, they look great.

Pretty nice recolors, great work everyone! Also I have coincidentally made a Hilda template too, so here it is if anyone wanna try it: Collapsed: HOHOHOHO:

For anyone still curious about the "Reaction Speed and Reflexes" subject should give this a read: http://kayin.moe/?p=2047 It clears up many misconceptions about the matter, specially about reactions differing greatly between each person and being an inherent thing. And guess what it's one of the things that can be trained and improved! "It’s not about being about to perceive and react to everything, it’s about being able to simplify the problem and removing the clutter from your brain that slows down your actions. It’s experience that holds you back more so than your inherent abilities."

Just use the Pen Tool and you will get better results. Here are the links: http://www.mediafire.com/download/lyhjfypbf0ncqqy/Noe.psd http://www.mediafire.com/download/1o3f05lflwhgplz/Hakumen-CTArt_Template.psd

Assault moves scale worse (less damage, less hitstun/untechable) than regular moves. You should go for normal jump j.[C] when Assault j.[C] wouldn't make a huge difference on mixups.

Couldn't find anything about this but I've seen some Sol players doing jump (YRC) Airdash for mixup. Is the YRC supposed to eat their DP/6P inputs or just to see if they did a reversal or not?