Airk

Yay! I knew I could count on you! I can do the first combo you mentioned with 22D leading into 214D in the corner - it seems to flow pretty naturally from the other 22D 6CC stuff. Can you do that off 5BB>5CC though? It always seems like they tech out on me after 2CC if I do that. I definitely need to learn the midscreen 2 charge one - I had that one picked out as something to work on, but I remembered it wrong, so it kept not working and I was getting frustrated. Ooops. I guess I'll go to practice the mugen stuff more. I'll probably end up needing to do it on visual cues, because there are two different voice samples, so audio cues won't work. x.x

So I'm continuing to slowly up my game to levels that aren't completely terrible - 22D -> 6CC -> s.jc C stuff is coming out with enough reliability that I can actually count on it as part of my game, and I can usually get some damage off a counter-hit 22x or a 3CC. I haven't attempted much in the way of hitconfirming 5B counterhits into 6C yet, but that's not -really- going to lead to any new comboes, per se, just re-using the reflexes that've already been build on the 22D stuff. So... what do folks suggest as the next training mode combo to work on? I figured a 214214D combo would be good, since there seem to be a bunch of those that lead into good damage, and I'm not using Mugen AT ALL right now, but... well, hell if I can get the timing right. So. Two questions/requests: #1: Can people suggest another 'high value' combo to compliment the basic 5BB>2BB>5CC>236A>214A>22C (optional 236236C in the corner :P ) and all the 22D variants (Throw version, 5BB>5CC version, etc) to work on? Challenge mode isn't coming through for me here. :P #2: Anyone have any tips on how to time either 236D or 22D after Mugen? It's easy enough to buffer the 2124214D during a throw (Which seems to be the easiest starting place for this stuff) but I really don't have any feel for when to hit the button for the first D move after the Mugen; It seems like either the move doesn't come out at all (too early) or the training dummy blocks. (Too late.). Tips? Cues? Hints? Anything.

You guys are all, collectively, my heroes. Thanks for the work, time, and money you put in on this.

I'm actually a little confused by this; It seems to me that even using the option select suggested, you really can't just autopilot this - you have to REACT to what your opponent does. If you just spam this out immediately, and your opponent neutral techs, they'll be invulnerable and your 5B will whiff (Though you might have time to do something else); If your opponent backwards rolls (doesn't go anywhere, but whatever), then your 5B whiffs AND your opponent can guard by the time you've recovered. But if you wait any meaningful amount of time (more than 10 frames) and your opponent rolls immediately, they can guard your Hotenjin. So really what you're doing is inputting 214214 and WAITING for something to happen before you push B?

It's all fine to say "Damage is the only thing holding her back" except that damage is 100% of how you win in these games. It doesn't matter how good your pressure or your zoning or your oki are, if you need to succeed 4 times as often as your opponent. And Rachel doesn't particularly excel in any of those categories. Even if your opponent makes a huge mistake, it doesn't really cost them. Tsubaki can at least capitalize on the opponent's errors (and everyone makes -some-) for some sort of results. Getting charge isn't impossible, though you won't get much against good players. Both characters are weak, certainly, but no matter how good or how lucky you are with Rachel, it doesn't really matter because it won't do any damage.

Right. Some specials are virtually never safe - Gauntlet Hades tends to fall into this category, though there's room for a small amount of mixup there with whether you do the followup or not. So that one should be used carefully, and you should be sure to avoid being predictable with it - even if it hit the last time you did it a certain way, you'll probably want to do some other stuff for a while before you do it that way again. Similarly, the Hell's Fang followup is just begging for a punish on block, so you really never want to break that out unless your Hell's Fang actually hits. Moving from a basic blockstring in a blockstring with good mixup means you need to know which of your moves gatling from which, and then using as wide a variety of options as possible. Even moves are unsafe on block can be worth sticking out there every so often just to catch the opponent off guard - and doubly so if you happen to have 50 heat for a rapid cancel. Especially doubly if your opponent things that a certain move is a free punish, and autopilots a counterattack even though you rapid cancel, turning say, that -11 from 3C into something in the neighborhood of +16. And still another thing to consider is that once your opponent is blocking, and thinking really hard about watching for your next overhead, that's a perfect time to step forward and throw, because unless they're really on their game, they won't be thinking about teching your throw. And of course, every Dead Spike you can sucker them into blocking will knock a guard primer off them. On characters with low numbers of primers (Hazama, Valkenhayn, Carl, probably some others), landing a single Dead Spike after they've done a green burst means they're in danger of being guard crushed. And then of course, you have moves that can be dash cancelled (6C), or jump cancelled (Most C attacks for Ragna) which allows you other options to continue pressure. But mostly, yeah; Sounds like you grasp the basics. Stop listening to me theoryfighting and try some of this stuff out.

Well, what character do you play? You can always ask on the appropriate character specific forum. That's the quick way. Otherwise, you can usually START with a simple combo - say you're looking at Ragna, glancing at his combo thread in the forums shows that 2A, 5B, 6A, 5C is a combo. So then you go over to the frame data and observe that 5C is -8 on block - that's not a good thing to end on. So you can either try to Gatling to a different move there - fortunately, 6A gatlings into a bunch of stuff - like 2C, which is +1, which is pretty nice, or you can cancel your 5C (or whatever) into a special move. The trouble with that is that most specials are even more unsafe on block. Hell's Fang without the followup is only -4, so that's not TOO bad. Most moves have at least 5 frames of startup, so you're generally safe on a non-instant block (Though you may not be able to continue your pressure). Alternatively, you could go for Dead Spike, which is actually +5 on block, but it's sufficiently slow to start up that you'll be leaving a gap where your opponent could counterattack you if they realize what you're doing... so you don't want to end with Dead Spike all the time. And then you take it to the next level, and notice that 6A could also gatling into 6B - which is an overhead, or even into 3C, which is a low (but quite unsafe on block, so you'll want to seriously consider a special cancel). So you can start mixing those in. Alternatively, you could cut the whole thing short and just go from 2A into choice of 5B, 6B or 5B - that's a mid, a high, or a low -to add some mixup and confusion into your game. Disclaimer: I don't play Ragna, and some of this is probably unsafe somewhere for one reason or another, so take it all with a grain of salt, but the general theory is sound.

"Blockstrings" are, well, strings of attacks that you do in anticipation of them being blocked. The purpose of a blockstring is to apply pressure to your opponent - to force them to block and maybe make a mistake, and also to push them towards the corner, and/or launch your next attack from a favorable position. In order to be worthwhile, a blockstring should be (mostly) safe. That means it doesn't contain (m)any gaps where an opponent can use a frame 1 invincible move to hit you, and it doesn't end with a move that has a lot of recovery. Otherwise, you stand to lose more than you gain. This is the primary thing that differentiates what makes a good blockstring from a good combo. A GOOD blockstring is also branching, so you don't do the same thing every time. This makes it harder for an opponent to instant block and escape, and even better, it may allow you to go into a mixup - if a certain move can gatling into both a low and an overhead, for example. (Aside: Many overheads actually result in a blockstring being unsafe, so you won't want to use them too heavily.) Blockstrings are only part of a good offense though.

What the heck was with the 'flipping' thing that happened after she hit Hakumen with 3CC? That looks new to me. o.o

One thing that has always confused me about 22B is that in the frame data, it says both "9-27F invincible to projectile attribute" AND, more generically "absorbs projectiles". Similarly, 22B (Max Charge) says "Invincible to projectile attribute from 9F to 2F into recovery step" and again "absorbs projectiles" Is this double reporting? Does one of these make the other superfluous? What's the difference between being "invulnerable" and "absorbing"? Does it only absorb while it's invulnerable? @_@

It theoretically could work. It has projectile invulnerability starting at frame 1, though the invulnerability doesn't last until the active frames. Still, Dead Spike only actually has 4 active frames, so it SHOULD work, it's just more timing sensitive. And yeah. I knew about the projectile immunity bits on B moves, though I tend to forget about 22B, because it's usually not useful to avoid a projectile but stay in place. >.< It NEVER occured to me to check if Dead Spike was a projectile though. -_-

Boy, I wish I'd known this yesterday afternoon. @_@

Looking at the super at the end of round 1 in that Litchi match, I think it's safe to say 236236C is no longer -A Bunch on block.

Isn't this the point that everyone strives to get to? It's where it stops being about reactions and execution and starts being about strategy, conditioning, and mindgames. It's not THAT complicated. If someone "knows" that you are going to tick throw them after move X, wait half a beat and then do it, or throw a second jab, or whathaveyou. Virtually no one is such a machine that they can deal with all possible options without some sort of anticipation. Exactly. o.o >shrug< Godlike? No. Better than the average US player? Yes. They do, as a rule, get a heck of a lot more head to head practice than we do, and everyone SWEARS that's the best way to get better. Regardless, I've never seen a match at any level of play from any location that I would have described as a blockfest. Sometimes people go 5-10 whole seconds and block everything, but then either someone gets fooled, or someone makes a mistake or steals momentum. Is it theoretically possible to become good enough where your defense is literally impenetrable on reaction? I'd honestly say no. That's the realm of computers. Is it possible to get to the point where it LOOKS like you have impenetrable reactive defense? Yes, but that's generally just because you know what's coming.

Sounds obvious to me, at least on a high level Break/change your habits. While it's possible that somehow you've both become better at defense that all of Japan, they still manage to have matches that aren't blocking fests, so that's probably not it. Odds are, you two both just know how the other plays, and are having a hard time getting creative and breaking out of your 'rut'. Japanese play would seem to indicate that the game is not, in fact, just a huge blockfest at high levels, so I don't really think your assertion stands in the face of general evidence. Now HOW do you break your habits? Well, I guess you need to figure out what they are first. Sorry if this sounds like "improving at fighting games 101" here, but there's not a lot to work with in your question, either.

The combo FAQ lists this as a zero stock corner combo: 5BB > 2BB > 5CC > 236A > 214A > 5B > 623C > j.236A > j.214C I'm not EVEN going to try to do the math and figure out the damage though, so someone will need to try it and see how much oompf this has. I don't think it's going to beat the damage from the combo you listed, but it also doesn't cost any heat, so it's a tradeoff. 236236C at the end of that going to be dealing its minimum 840 damage, so it may not be the best use of heat.

Sadly, I just don't have the patience to try the same combo over and over for 30 minutes at a stretch. I get impatient and mashy and don't learn anything. =/

Yeah, helped me a ton too. Still need more practice though. x.x

Because people are expecting you to play "smart"/"the right way"/predictably. And then you're all "Rawr, this is stupid, but it'll kill you if you're not expecting it!" and they're not expecting it.

Yeah, that's how it seems. 236236C is more or less the same as it is now (though seems to have gained some invulnerability frames), 236236D seems like a... well, Super version of 236X. Or at least, that's how I'm guessing based on what I've seen in the videos so far.

I can hardly wait to see what the Japanese players will be able to do with her once they stop dropping combos and missing pickups. Yes, I have no room to talk because I suck, but I am hungry to see some high level play on the order of what we're seeing with Hazama and Jin.

There's essentially nothing in this game that CAN'T be learned and practiced by playing matches. What practice mode is for is learning those things FASTER. Whether this is WORTH practicing or whether you get enough practice just by playing is another question, and it probably depends somewhat on your character. I'm sure there's value in knowing EXACTLY how far all your normals reach, but I would expect there are things that have MORE value (read: You have non-infinite practice time, so you need to practice some things ahead of others). YMMV, however.

The only ones I ever found were the Hazama and Tsubaki ones that Aksys did (linked in my earlier post); They're pretty good for beginners since they introduce most concepts, but they don't teach combos or anything like that.

So... something like the Hazama and Tsubaki Tutorial videos that Aksys did? (Though probably with more detail?) I find this a very good idea, though it might be worthwhile to set a few guidelines in terms of length etc so that one community doesn't produce 20 minutes worth of footage with frame breakdowns of every normal or something.

Well, in CS1, it's always at disadvantage. (Except 236D). But here's how it works: 236X has 10 active frames. Your opponent's blockstun starts when you make contact with them, but your RECOVERY doesn't start until the active frames run out. So if you hit them with the very first active frame (Meaning, you're close to them after the startup frames, which move you forward) then you have to wait 9 frames (The rest of your active frames) before you even start going into recovery, while in the meantime, your opponent's blockstun is ticking away. If instead you hit them on the very LAST active frame, you go straight into recovery on the next frame - so effectively, they are in blockstun 9 frames longer (relative to you) than they were when you hit on the first frame. The downside of spacing to hit them late in the active frames is that they have more time to see you coming and do a reversal DP or something. But anyway, in CS2, I suspect very strongly that this spacing is going to play into how safe the move is and what you can do to combo after it. It would seem just a little too good if you could just spam them around and not get punished unless they read it. (Though to some extent, Lambda can do just that with Zwei Blade (236B) but that has variable startup based on distance, blahblahstuff.) My theoryfighting PSR is like 250, it's a shame my execution sucks. :P Yeah. I had a "What are you DOING?!?!" moment, then laughed when they went on to do a combo. Guard Crushes are two whole seconds long, which is like, forever in this kind of game.