Osuna

I've convinced myself I can get some sort of jump normals land normals. I actually was looking at that blue beat he did and wondered if he couldn't have done GF whiff instead and what the result would have been. I disagree on the general principle that us gaining more Heat means we could justify blue beats more, I would think it would be the opposite and the reward of Bnbs looks high enough to make Blue beats a worse risk reward. But that's all speculation. Edit: 5B J.2C is also very Barely available in fatal.

Hmmm Actually... hmmm. From a strict numbers perspective it looks really plausible. I'm not sure how J.C affects air time, but there should be enough time in the jump and in the normals if you don't have to everything just frame for the air combo. You'd need proration to be really bad for it to be impossible given that kind of situation... gahh I want training mode.

That wasn't max distance, by a lot. The combo actually started really close by. And 2.3k is arguably much less than CS2 Tager gets off of CH 5C at that distance. Looks a lot like one of Tagers nerfs to me rather than his biggest buff.

3C gets you a knockdown on counterhit. As for defense. Instant barrier, mess with it if you can. It is strong, but I didn't have time to figure out a specific application.

I could see someone spending the meter on supers instead. GF's risk reward was upgraded to tolerable and meter in combo can make a notable difference now too.

I do prefer his old 5A, but he gets a low/throw mix up off 5A that actually threatens people and the 5A is very plus on block so it isn't that bad.

I guess my primary distinction is I was once on a speech and debate team, but thanks it was nice to meet you too. I'm not much one for shout outs, but since this was directed at me I didn't want you to feel ignored.

Or you could 5C MTW. MTW is still faster than 5D I think. Depending on location and such. The real problem I found was that such a combo takes so long that you'd have to have stacked some mag beforehand to have a shot at it. For example if you did this out of a GF the 3C AC would probably work, but if they have even 2 seconds of time to run down that mag clock before you get the fatal, then certainly the combo would have to be cut short. To this end it is very worthwhile to look for and think of ways to add mag mid combo. Preferably not with SB, but whatever gets the job done. Combos go a lot longer in general and use the mag in more parts. On top of it all we get a lot more damage and heat with mag, which could change, but it makes mag management a lot more important than before. That said improvising on the only 2C I got that was fatal and not bursted immediately, was 3.98k so I think we'll get good damage on it, generally speaking.

The mag was helpful. I don't use it much in CS2 but it feels like it has faster start up and goes farther in CSex.

I've been saying 720 is over rated since CS2 so naturally I think it's a bit of a waste for anything but a surefire kill. But it has been like that for a while, and in all honesty I don't like using it. It's like oh look, I didn't kill him and now I'm at full screen against Mu again because I don't get mag or oki out of it. Aside from the amazing damage it basically does everything you Don't want to do with tager. In just my own extremely limited and personal experience/knowledge of the way I was getting meter and damage from CSex I will say that landing a 720 when you get 50 heat usually doesn't kill them and gives them space again. Landing it late it could have just as well been a 360 3C MTW if you had mag. With the buffs to mag and mag combos I find that keeping them magnetized is really important. Oh that reminds me of one change I didn't talk about before. 2D can actually be used sometimes now. It got me in on Lambda a couple times. I had her magged and she had back dashed into a pretty much full screen advantage. I mixed up J.Cing over swords with 2Ding under swords and when I got 2D through I was right in her face from really far away. This is part of my evolution of getting mad at 720, I would land one doing this, then run out of mag and have to get in again without it, which sucked.

I didn't think about checking, but I Think you don't based on my memory. Oh and Bsledge does have a pseudo buff. It recovers faster, or at least lamda has to time things tighter for some reason to punish it. Might be more true for the charged version. Oh and a tip for anyone who wishes this was good, abuse it against lambda during the first week of the release. Their muscle memory will not work out well unless that lambda was used to air backdashing like twice in response to sledge.

I actually tried Jump back J.2C once and couldn't catch them. They flew pretty fast and our jump isn't very good, but I heard other people were getting it. If it isn't an issue of timing then it was an issue of distance before the fling. EDIT: Could I have ACx2 6C J.2C 3C maybe? Does ACwhiff 6C still work?

Ah I misunderstood. You'd normally go for a gadget finger at that distance mag is good again. At super long distance 6A 3C 22D did not work though, so it might be worthwhile to sledge (or SB) at times like that. At least I remember it that way. The 6A 2C combos are sometimes necessary when they are magnetised and close to you since 3C AC will make them cross up too far to catch if you do it too close. And you cannot GF whiff without a knock down before the collider. Well, you can, but so late it wouldn't be worth it. As for 6B 5D asledge, Iunno. I haven't kept up with videos and no one did it at the convention space as far as I could tell, so I don't have anything I can say about that, but duely noted. I take back my comments about 6B.

There is pretty much no reason to ever do that combo without the intention of following up the hammer with something. I've gone for the the Egadget quite a few times this weekend and I'm reasonably confident at least once was against Makoto and if it works on Makoto it works on everyone. Another reason why that combo makes no sense is that you could have just as easily done 5A 5B 5C 6A 2C AC 236B>236A or 2D for more damage/heat if there was such a problem. It sounds more to me like he was trying to push someone into a corner. Also info dump. J.A has for sure had a level increase and it Feels huge. I for the life of me could not tick throw off it and it was easy to combo off of. In all honesty I personally miss having a level 0 move, but the numbers don't lie I was getting decent damage and great meter off of it. Sometime in wonky air to air situations too. I take back everything I said about 5A 5B being meaningless versus air. I've tagged people low enough for that to get me a collider several times. The 5B launches enough on its own that it'll make 5C whiff a lot on certain characters (Hakumen get's so horizontal so fast!), but you can go straight from 5B to AC so it's fine. Charged Bsledge has only 2 levels uncharged and fully charged. You'll get a normal Bsledge if you hold it for anything less than the max time (Your welcome darlos McGrumpy-person). It's also an incredibly stupid move which like its predecessors does nothing in the only match ups it is supposed to matter in. To top it all off, the frame advantage nerf makes it generally worse as a move. Good for corner combos though. The freakiest and most confusing thing about the whole weekend is that people were bursting 5A combos out of GF. It is a strange feeling. VC 236A to punish a burst was kinda meh. You have to rapid it to get much damage out of it, but I landed a counterhit of a meaty hammer in the corner against an air neutral tech and got 4.8k improvising. There was a MTW in there somewhere, but still 4.8k on the first try is pretty crazy. It makes me want to do ghetto corner mix ups. I found myself going for GF a lot now. Not just because of the 5A buff, but because it was the only time I knew for sure I'd get to finish my combo without magnetism running out. You have to pay close attention sometimes and cut it short or change it mid way to not let them get full screen on you because mag ran out. 5D's range buff is pretty big. The max range seems to be the edge of the little ball that appears in front of his fist, similar to but not the same as with 4D. 6B is almost 100% meaningless in combos now. It doesn't combo into Asledge, and the proration nerf puts it below 6A in comboability. The 6A armor buff was completely meaningless the whole weekend. MTW got so much use. I won more than a few matchs with Terra break, but off of air hits with MTW you can usually 3C afterward. Also AC 4D whiff 3C MTW on Valk is hilarious. It looks like it is Way too far away to hit, but it does. It even feels wrong when you know it should work. I remember someone asked whether J.2C was easier to combo from and the answer is yes it is. But not to the point where you always can, but I definitely manage pick ups from heights I normally could not and it's not even just an issue of 5B being faster than 2B, which it is. You have more time to follow up. Though I did have 1 weird experience where I hit a latest J.2C and went for 2B out of habit and it did not pick up. Makes me wonder if the buff was to the way they fall (or maybe how fast tager falls?) or something, but in the end I didn't do it a second time so coulda been anything or nothing. I now know why all of those Tagers keeps 5Cing after SB still. The fact that SB Sometimes gets the full wall bounce messes with my head. Especially when the reward is very noticable damage/heat wise- it just messes with your head. Getting a raw collider was kinda frustrating when I had mag since I couldn't figure out how to get more damage and GF. In the end I went for ACwhiff 5B 5C 6A 2C for a tech trap. I never got the hang of proper combo applications for 6C besides the 1 bnb. I can't remember what this note was about specifically, but I seems to have done a lot of damage with a 5A? Like more than the projected amounts? I don't know. GF whiff is kinda awesome. I find myself wishing I could do it after every collider, but I think once I know what to do after a magged collider I'll feel better about things in general. Also I get the feeling that 360B 3C MTW doesn't work on everyone. Also I couldn't punish Hazama's kick super with 720 anymore. Oh and barrier push back is Huge. I instant barriered 2 normals and my 360A whiffed completely and so did what they were trying to do. 360B feels like it got a range nerf, but I might be crazy. Well, that's the best I could do, I hadn't kept up on videos so I'm sure a lot of this is old news/embarassing.

Nope. Pay attention to damage modifying states.

It was a CS2 change I thought? But yeah we had to drop a lot of damage because of the way our proration worked out in combos back then.

I'm getting back into my groove and I'm west coast, but if you don't mind that I'll be glad to help you out after today PSN MojoPlenty

But you can't make them block it, not in those circumstances, and if you could 6A would beat mami circular which makes all of this irrelevant anyway. I've heard talk of better armor, but as it stands that would lose to any reversal I know because the armor ends when the active frames end. There's some goofy timing things you can do, but it's a very far cry from something you can force on anyone. 6A is a tager mix up. It has some fast options out of it but they are unsafe. I like that 3C is getting buffed at the expense of 360B being nerfed in the context of mix ups like that though, makes them a lot more reasonable. Besides that, holding 6A is the most obvious thing in the world if there is a single option that makes it bad it can be done reliably on reaction. EDIT: As for random heartcars, it isn't a counter unless you Yomi them. 6A is slower than Mami circular and gets the armor late into the move. Also, the move is minus a billion on whiff or block, late backdash or block gives you a 'whatever you want' punish. Also you first said you could use it without getting heartcared for your trouble which very distinctly means the opposite of what you're saying now. Even though neither work, it is confusing to get conflicting accounts.

6A isn't that great even with the coming buffs. It is normally a pretty bad decision in general. Just because she doesn't get 5K off you making a bad judgment doesn't mean she can't stuff it in all of those situations just as easily, it also doesn't mean she won't get 4K off of that. This change shouldn't impact the match up at all.

Both of you are playing the match up wrong if 6A beating mami circular means that much to you.

Axis, you just said match ups aren't important to know in the match up thread. Then you said playing the player is both more important and also a part of knowing the match up. Kinda all over the place there. Players are assumed in match ups to be of comparable and considerable skill, so for a sec let's pretend habits are match up information. You can have habits and so can they so it only hypothetically favors the person with the safest options (Ara) the better odds of getting a favorable outcome (ara) and the more advantageous call out (Probably still ara). I know I'm often better at that than people I play against, but match ups are discussed in terms that exclude that.

I know you didn't bring this up, but you happened to be the post that I was reading when I decided to reply. Capcom Did change poison into a transvestite. During production. Meaning, the canon never had him as a woman. And when it came to american consoles nintento said that was crazy and forced them to replace the characters with billy and whats his face. So Japan is the one who had the brilliant idea, and poison was always a dude. EDIT: also I hear the game was going to have over 100 gems? That's insane and if things keep getting messed up this game will die and I'll be sad.

Tiers are relative to speculate a tier you'd need to speculate a ranking for all of the characters. Just say Tager is doing ok so far. No need to bring tiers into this.

Can you call a blank page a list?

I don't like it when people tell me "but it works" here. With Tager this is almost always used incorrectly to describe things that -in the most general and relevant way- aren't good. That don't work, one might say. People, even very strong players will occasionally use these tactics, and then people say "But it works" Where as the correct phrase is "But it worked". "But it worked" means it was a good call out, something good Tager players ought to do time to time. It is a retrospective analysis of a match, and says nothing about the power of a tactic. "But it works" is only true if it's has a trend of use and success in relevant circles.