Osuna

To be fair it was Really good.

I saw tager get 236A IB 5A'd like 5 times in one video before. I suppose he could have been trying something, but it looked pretty legit to me.

What controller are you using and what part of your hand is hitting start (and during what actions)?

I think it is worth reminding people that it currently (in extend) an unheld 6A doesn't get armor until it can hit them, so it would be really really weird to speed up the move and put the armor in the middle of the active frames of the move. 6A's armor is kinda a joke because it takes super long to show up and loses to way too many things even when it is there. Certainly a far cry from hammer fall. (I normally hate comparing to Potemkin, but GG is like all I'm playing these days)

That is a really hasty and terrible generalization and 2C doesn't cancel into 5D anymore so that combo was doomed from the start.

I'm still not entirely sure what OD does. I know it improves Drives and gives mag, but in most of the videos I see it get activated in the Tager gets killed before he does anything so I'm not entirely sure what all it does.

My understanding is that 5B and 5A, kinda collider were the anti jump stuff. But if j.A leads into a tick throw set up then Totally. I want that. I've always been jealous of Bang getting air tick throw set ups. There's still a lot we don't know though. I actually hated a lot of Kanji's anti jump stuff because there were ranges where like nothing would tag them if they IAD backward. I haven't played him in a while though, maybe I'd be ok with it having a fresh perspective.

You're right, I don't appreciate that. Still that's very clearly a mix up, you're trying to create a weird one that is uncomfortable for the opponent, but it isn't like there isn't anything they can do about it. You keep using the word virtually because it Is punishable. Probably not easily for a first time opponent, but that's not that different from Sol 2D RC 66 2D RC 66 623K. Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with doing that, so this part is just me agreeing to disagree, but to me if it is also a mix up then it is a mix up and if it isn't then it is a gimmick. I don't consider it special and I hate how it is misused all the time. Potemkin, I think this is as amusing and interesting as the next person and it definitely starts with you so I stand corrected on that (Unless you started the HPBs by observing they had higher than baseline usefulness, which in my opinion is a better way to do it). I still don't find it that special though. It is just a weird mix up. I'll get into what I mean by that later. Makoto, This is exactly the kind of situation I meant when I said it is just a mix up and it is backwards to call it conditioning. This starts with a tendency people already have, you found it in the meta and then you do what beats that until it changes their response and it turn into a regular old mix up in the end. The only thing that makes it special is novelty which in an ideal world wouldn't last very long and aganst some opponents might not last past the first moves, or might even result in net losses. What I'm trying to say is..just like anyone who has ever played a grappler or any character with some mix up that is new to their opponent, I've strung people through their responses as much as anyone else, but I do it as a teaching experience because quite frankly I don't think it is a big deal and I want everyone to aspire to as high a level as they can, which means no secrets. That's a personal decision I made, as a consequence stuff like this goes no where special. I've also learned that not everyone needs me to teach them, and some people only need to see it once to infer the rest of the mix up. So I can't help but conclude it is nothing special and it doesn't go where I want to go. Not saying I don't do it (or let you do it for me, knowing who has played you recently was really good data not that long ago) I just don't think it is special. I don't appreciate it, like you said. I'd like to say I never do ones like that potemkin one because they are expensive and goofy, but I've totally done almost exactly that one before. The part I actually find upsetting, rather than over rated, is that people misuse it all the time. People tell me all the time how they use collider or will use air driver to condition people to get hit by 360B out of GF of all things.

I don't agree that is isn't a mix up. As long as it is dynamic it has to be a mix up because you opponent has the ability to think about what you're doing in ways you don't intend. Of course you may work very hard to try and make that difficult, but unless it isn't dynamic it is a mix up. It's a success rate in the end. I know what conditioning a person is. I just don't find it all that special (In my opinion it is a little backwards to say "conditioning" since it implies you're choosing your goal in advance rather than finding favorable conditions in the flow of things). More importantly I find it deceptive for a lot of newer players. Every time some bad mix up becomes apparent there's always that one guys who says "So all we need to do is condition our opponents to not jump and we'll land lots of throws" or something equally meaningless. I'm not sure I understand j.A as anti jump (do you mean anti air? like air to air?), but I do like that 5A is still good. The real problem with colider not coming together is that it our best anti air in a surprising number of situations and we're not even getting CT style combos. I'm not so sure that air driver is going to be that reliable. I haven't seen it put to good use and there's just too much I don't know about it.

I only just now looked at the proration changes and they are weird. I'm not sure it means in the long run, but there were a lot of p2 nerfs and p1 buffs, so how that might average out is hard for me to grasp at the moment.

It is more than that the bounce is higher, otherwise we could pull them to the ground and do otg combos right? Untechable time in the air and on the ground are different (unless they changed it). I'm still not 100% sold on the time based tech system being confirmed, I think he was maybe over simplifying things for the layperson and it got lost in translation. Might be just me hoping but I feel like I have reason to doubt. It was really stupid and did things in CT like makes some combos not work on CH. It got way less useful when they buffed 5A because GF no longer sucked and necessitated the use of meter to be an actually meaningful mix up. I heard it still works, but haven't seen it.

The last thing I saw a Tager do was AC, 2D/endcombo. I'm hoping we can combo to and from Bsledge into mag comfortably eventually

I think if you get used to using litchi's tools you'll find they are what you're looking for.

I'm Hoping Collider combos shape up enough to make that obsolete. I Do however want to do tick throws in the air.

In my opinion the most analogous character to that style of fighting is Litchi, but if you have trouble with that you can kinda sorta do stuff like that with guys like Ragna. Or at least that's how I feel. I don't think zoning the way lambda does it is quite the same as the poking you're talking about. At least for me it feels more like characters with good normals. On the otherhand if the only problem is that you are losing, then practice will help way more than changing characters, usually.

...Do you know chess? Because that isn't how checkmate works and while good chess player can see ahead into the game that also isn't analogous to yomi/call outs. Just a note for the new player, if you're going to yomi or call out an attack you think will happen by countering it you should measure your confidence. High risk moves like hakumen's drive require a high success rate to be worth it, so often there are better options! Another reason to not worry too much about being psychic with counters and react to things appropriately.

That's some nice contribution, and I like the detailed explanation of a simlpe yet important set of concepts however...I have no idea what checkmate an attack is supposed to mean. I thought you might mean to defeat an attack in some strange sense, but you took the extra time to make sure we knew you were using checkmate in the chess sense and I just... what is that supposed to mean? Counters are good defensive tools against reactionable attacks too. They also can seal slow options since they can be D'd on reaction. Playing against Spark as Tager sucks btw.

I am excited. About the same things mostly too. I was just upset because None of those things were in the video, and what Was in the video were Tagers getting beat up because they kept getting hits they couldn't get damage/oki/a combo pick from, and their new tools being completely ineffective the whole match. The only match Tager did well in was because he was using Old tech that still worked (though not as well) @Darlos I really really wish Grand punish had more advantage on hit. I can really see myself rapiding it for better oki. The damage is good at least and I like that some j.Ds can combo into it so you don't even miss out on mag.

It doesn't If you do anything except air dash or wait 120 frames you should beat that tech trap. Very slightly more damage than 360A, like 100 more. The not quite the best of either world. All in all 360C ain't no APB because of the clear mechanical differences and the system differences, but I'm sure there is a very very limited application for it.

That is a little confusing then, because literally none of those things happened in the supposedly super hype video. Nothing in that video and I mean nothing that actually happened in the video was better than it would have been in Extend. I don't think you can really have an ambiguous safe jump cross up? You have to be too low by the time they recover for it to be ambiguous, right? I'd like something off of collider with no mag when I'm not cornered, but as long as we still get 5k+ off of collidering them into the corner still I'll enjoy it. I'm not sure if I agree Tager's abare is better, only because it is really really good in extend. Time will tell, but I'm gonna miss j.D CH combos. (Conditioning opponents never made sense to me. Not the concept, but that it Is a concept. It isn't Really any different from any other mix up, but it get's special mention and terminology like it is somehow more complex. )

I was just disappointed because the match show cased pretty much all of the ways Tager got worse. Tager would have been doing much more damage and had much better Abare in Extend and all of the cool things he did do were doable in Extend (and better). So I don't even know where to look for hype in that video. @Tagertime. From what I've heard that 2D definitely could not have been comboed from using GF pull. I'm pretty sure the guy teched late on purpose. If not we should be able to do Really crazy stuff in the corner that would be easy enough to have been discovered already. On the bright side I've been seeing (in other videos) cool safe jump ins as Oki instead of GF and that's pretty awesome because our oki normally requires a hard call out for DPs.

Whaaaat, it made way more sense except the part where it reversed your momentum, but that is Clearly explained by the *mumblemumblemurmur*. I actually really like how they did APB. It didn't feel all that awkward watching it happen the way they did it. I liked that he didn't fly off the screen and you can actually influence the direction he falls in. It seems within the realm of his videogame powers. Tager is a little weird to watch because he needs to stand still in the air and jump up after, which are both things you'd think he'd do a lot more often if he had the ability.

It is almost twice as much. Edit: Also there was like Nothing hype in that supposedly hype link. Tager didn't do anything cool , or even just better than Extend. Way to lower the bar by calling that hype.

Place your thumb on the center of the pad and tilt it around directions with minimal sliding, I place my joint over the center because I find it easier to to quickly rotate my thumb closer to the base. Visualize what you have to do with your thumb and get it wrong a lot. At the start it is kinda like learning to do the Vulcan solute for the first time. You might have trouble coordinating your hand to do something unfamiliar, but it learns how if you keep trying so you don't need any special training per se. I'm a pad player myself and that's how I experienced fighting games when I got started, and I have Terrible hands. I have literally dropped the controller mid match because I'm only really trained my thumbs to do what I want, but I can compete seriously. I've checked out a vita though and they are pretty nice, at least there wasn't anything I could not do on it when I tried it. Depending on hand size you might have to worry about hitting the stick, but it seemed to transfer over from a good controller pretty well, so I don't think it is any more of a disadvantage. Frame data isn't important exactly, but if you're the type who likes to study to improve your results it can be a very useful source of information. If the game isn't available to test or check something it nice to be able to bring up the frame data and figure it out, but you're on a vita so that might not be a big deal like it is for me. I hope you find someone you genuinely enjoy playing. I bought the first BB just to play Tager.

Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say I've only seen that happen once and it was against a baiken who would have had to reversal backdash a meaty unblockable slidehead and got wrecked trying to figure that out.