zeth07

Ok so the whole point of this is pointless then because you ARE trying to come up with "terms" and "definitions" to define parts of the game. Going by those descriptions for Carl and Venom isn't a "term" at all, and if it is a definition then what "term" would you use to describe them to someone in a easy way for them to understand? Anyone with a reasonable sense of the word "playstyle" in fighting games would probably understand the phrase "rushdown character". Anyone new to the genre or trying to decide on characters if they said to you I'd like to play a rushdown character, YOU and just about everyone else on this site know exactly what that person is talking about without question so it seems to have served a purpose and must not have been "useless non-information". And from THAT you can then go on and describe the characters playstyle in more detail like you did with Venom and Carl. Or can we call Carl's playstyle a "Sandwich" character, then we can use your definition for it if you like since it sounds more like your description? Overview: Testament used to have a strong focus on zoning and keepaway in his gameplay, but with the additions in AC, he can be played quite freely. There's an example straight from the GG thread for Testament previously. So before AC, a person could have said Testment was a "Zoner" by "definition", why is that a problem if someone did that (prior to AC)? I'm pretty sure everyone understands the concept that it would be rare for any character to be pure rushdown/zoning and it is always happening in the match for every character, but when describing certain character's core playstyles I hardly see a problem with it. Especially when it is entirely possible for characters to have an "all-around" playstyle, so it already isn't like you have to decide on some Black or White answer to their playstyle. I guess we need a new term for "Grappler" as well, because as a Bang player I have a command throw and a regular throw so I'd like to get in and throw people for damage so he must be a Grappler too. The purpose of this was to come up with terms and definitions to be applied to fighting game stuff, and since every character can't seem to fit into the "perfect category" we have to come up with seemingly NEW terminology to TRY and fit them into a different category which goes against what you're saying entirely, thus defeating the whole purpose of this thread. Since we can't seem to just use the terms already commonly accepted among the entire fighting game scene OR just say a character can be good at both. Or is the point of this to suddenly change 25-30+ years of "fighting game terminology" cause somehow people "don't get it" when any of those terms are already used?

I wouldn't say really hard but it is definitely one of the things I was talking about when I said those combos had more room for error. It causes a "delay" in between the connecting moves just for the combo to even work, compared to the regular ones which resemble an actual IAD more, with little to no delay between the attacks so less room for error. Then you have the 5A>2B thing, and for that other version you have an almost TK'd j.623B that needs to be done. Each of these things add unnecessary complications for what you're getting in return compared to the other BnB combos. Which is why I see little point in doing those combos by comparison. Again, just my opinion though.

I think these would be a good starting point: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Notation http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games They already have loose definitions for a starting point, and our wiki has applicable definitions already. With that said, I think for the most part the definitions given from either of those links are fine, so I think it would be more about what terms people DON'T agree with and why they don't. Because as far as I'm concerned that list we have on the wiki is acceptable enough unless someone just wants to be "that guy" and split hairs about stuff but I guess that's what this thread is about doing. A list is already given, so I think people should just speak up about what should be changed by what's already provided and make an argument about why instead of trying to start from "zero". EDIT: Since you mentioned rushdown being one of the terms you don't really like I would question why that is, unless you just mean when people use it in the wrong context. So let's look at the two definitions provided by those links: Dustloop = Style of play where you constantly attack the opponent in close range fighting, never giving him an opportunity to retaliate. Wiktionary = The complete opposite of turtling, a rushdown style is considered to be completely offensive, often using a huge variety of mix up, pressure and mind games to force an opponent into a suboptimal defensive situation, seeking to create openings and watch for sudden mistakes to capitalize with proper, devastating punishment. Because of its overtly offensive, flashy nature, rushdown is generally considered to be a very entertaining -- if risky -- style of fighting. In my opinion both apply just fine when trying to describe a character's playstyle, mainly because it would be referring to the CORE playstyle of the character if you're using it in that context. Of course you could just as easily say the instant a character goes into close range and starts pressuring and attacking they are now "rushing down" the opponent. So you can say one is a "style", while the other is the "act". The same thing can be applied to Zoning/Zoner. Dustloop = Style of play where you stay far away from the opponent and use ranged attacks to keep the opponent away while slowly whittling away the opponent's life. Wiktionary = Zoning is a tactic in 2D fighters usually used at mid-range or far mid-range, the purpose of which is to out-prioritize your enemy's moves. The idea is to space yourself so that you are in a position to respond to or punish any entry angle or attack of your opponent's. Ideally, you can use certain pokes and attacks to beat your opponent's attacks, punish his advances or jumps, and hopefully shut down his offensive options, while landing hits. In attempting to zone, it is important to know the properties of your own attacks as well as the attacks of your opponent, in order to find the best move to use in countering your opponent's move. The ability to predict your opponent's next move, and having good reflexes to react to that move, are also important. Notice this time the different wording used between them. Dustloop Wiki refers to it as a "style", while Wiktionary refers to it as a "tactic". I personally do not think either is "wrong". With that said a character can easily be referred to as a "Zoner" because their core gameplay revolves around the act of "Zoning". Someone will argue that in every single match each character is zoning and rushing down but that doesn't mean characters can't have that style of play or be defined as such, again unless someone is just trying to split hairs. Examples: Rushdown: Sol/Slayer/Bang/Yun/Wolverine Zoning: Nu/Rachel/Testament/Dhalsim/Morrigan/Viewtiful Joe I would say those character's primary playstyle fits those descriptions. The rushdown characters can't do much of anything fullscreen and if they can it is minimal. Meanwhile the zoning characters have tools for controlling space even at fullscreen/mid-screen when nowhere even near the opponent. Fortunately for them they each coincidentally or not have attacks that allow them to then rushdown as well, but given the nature of those characters if someone were to ask me I would still say they were "zoners" if I had to pick a playstyle to apply to them. At the same time Bang and Sol both have attacks they can use for "zoning" but it pales in comparison to the actual "zoners". That's why at the same time you get character's who are good all around and jack of all trades like Jin/Ky/Ryu. I will say that given the nature of the game, Guilty Gear has a lot more instances of offensive tactics than say Street Fighter and characters tend to have A LOT of tools to use so it is probably harder to pin them down into an absolute playstyle. It is very much the same thing that applied to Nu/Rachel during CT, and they still have their moments now but that's what I think makes certain characters fundamentally stronger than others but that's for another topic entirely. So this is where I think it comes down to the actual context in which you use the terms, quite literally the exact phrase that any given person uses it. If I said Bang was primarily a rushdown character, I would find it kinda hard for someone to disagree with me and if they did I would ask what kind of character they think he was instead since his entire purpose is to get in close range and mix you up while severely lacking any real threat from fullscreen.

You want to make sure you turn the tech options on in training mode when practicing combos or just realize blue beats aren't legit combos because they could've teched. Hitconfirming can be looked at in two ways: 1) Recognizing you actually hit the opponent and being able to confirm into a combo. 2)Using multiple attacks to "hitconfirm" your combos properly. For fast moves it is just not physically possible to hitconfirm them, what this means is that you are more or less committed to doing 2 moves in succession, so doing something like 5A>5B. But some moves you can easily hitconfirm off with just that one attack, like Hazama's overhead into Hotenjin. It is also necessary for recognizing whether or not you need to do a standing combo, crouching combo, or if you actually caught them out of the air. I don't know Noel so I can't help you there but I'm assuming since it is starting with 5A, you pretty much have to do 5A>6A then hitconfirm from there. Doing multiple 5As like you mentioned would also be hitconfirming it, because by the time the 2nd 5A possibly hits you visually recognize that and know you can continue into 6A or go into something else otherwise if the initial hit was blocked. Using multiple attacks in pressure strings makes hitconfirming easier but it does in fact reduce your combo damage but in certain cases you really have no choice because it is the optimal thing to do. What you don't want to do is autopilot your whole combo/pressure because then you aren't actually hitconfirming at all. Just as an example: If I do 5A>2A>2A with Bang, by the 3rd attack I should have been able to recognize if the 5A actually hit or was blocked. This string leads to low damage though but it is an easy hitconfirm. If it was blocked I could then go for 5C (an overhead) which is useful because 2A is a low, so I'm going low to high for the mixup. An alternative would be going into 5B, which isn't a mixup at all and is just another part of the same string so it is more of an autopilot choice because it is a part of the combo you would be doing if the initial attacks hit. Another example of bad hitconfirming would be if I landed an aerial attack on a grounded opponent but still went into that same string. It's "bad" because of the low damage of that string, so instead because of the extra attack (and increased hitstun difference of the moves) I should instead go into 5A>5B which leads to more damage. So it's really important to get hitconfirming down so you don't autopilot your pressure/combos and so you can confirm all the random hits you land into damaging combos.

If you are looking for a Guilty Gear character similar to Relius then I would definitely say Eddie. They are fundamentally the same character. Then if you just want to go by "someone who starts their pressure from far away and can lock the opponent down." then Venom would fit too. So keeping the answer simple just based on what you're asking for, I'd say Eddie.

Mid-Screen: -5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > IAD j.4C > j.623B > (d.5C) > 6D > 623B > 2B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.4C > 7j.4C > j.C > B Nail = 3452 DMG Corner: -5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > "dash under" 5C > 2C > 623B > 2B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.4C > jc (j.4C) > (7)j.C > (B Nail) = 3452 DMG Regardless of the damage/meter differences, I do feel those other combos have more room for error in certain places compared to the regular ones, that's why if we are talking BnBs I'd highly advise going with what is already established because imo those aren't "worth it" for whatever minimal difference there may be. Compare that to the crouching combos as I mentioned previously which is quite clearly worth the difference between a basic crouching combo and the more advanced BnB. If I'm looking for "BnBs" I want whatever combo is the most universal, easiest to do, does the most damage relative to ease of doing it, and still provides whatever oki situation you want. In this case I'll go with the former rather than the latter. But to each his own.

The first and second combos do about 200 less damage for the exact same heat gain as some of the regular advanced BnBs. I also think the combo itself is less practical to do overall in terms of execution, but I'd be interested in knowing the character specifics of it as well (unless it works on everyone anyway).

I would not trust 5A > 5B > 6C hitconfirming, that's just asking for trouble and not practical imo. And most of them didn't seem to do more damage than the typical combos. The 4 seal combo was cool, not sure if you can get 4 seals off the typical IAD j.4C combos with 5A (can get 3 at least), I know you can off 5B though, but that one is good to know otherwise.

You guys are killing me.

Standing: Back to Corner/Far From Corner: -Use your BnB if you only need 2 seals or want to be on top of your opponent at the end. -Relaunch combo, you should really know how it works (or not) against everyone. Do this if you have ZERO interest in FRKZ because the 2 seal combo sacrifices almost 300 damage. You can also throw a B-nail at the end as part of the setup. This combo can also be used in place of any standing combos involving j.D against Valkenhayn/Carl/Rachel since you need to jc the 6C against them (to land j.D) which means you can't do the typical combos anyway. You can still do a 1 seal combo that does 175 less than the regular relaunch. The standing relaunch StayFree posted does a whopping 9 more damage than the regular relaunch but imo has more places for error, so it's up to you if you think it is worth the difference. -5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > (jc) > j.D > (d.)2B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.4C > jc j.4C > j.C = This is the 1 seal combo you can do. Does 175 less than regular relaunch, but still gives good corner carry/heat and can still do a B Nail at the end. It is a more universal BnB that is easy enough to use on everyone as far as I'm aware (probably need a slightly different ender for some characters I think). -There's also the 3 or 4 seal combos if you really want FRKZ. Starting Positions (opponent at least at Player 2's spot): -5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > IAD j.4C > j.623B > (d.5C) > 6D > 623B > 2B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.4C > 7j.4C > j.C > B Nail = 3452 DMG = This should absolutely be one of a Bang player's BnBs at this range. You don't necessarily have to do that ender but this kind of combo is definitely something every Bang player should be doing. Obviously you have to judge the distance, and if you are too far for either d.5C or d.6D to hit you can easily do d.5B instead straight into air ender. Another thing to note is if you're slightly too far out but have 50% you can RC after the j.623B then air dash forward>land>continue the combo. This is a situation you should keep in mind because normally that j.623B might not have wall bounced so now you need to hit them with another combo, instead you continue to follow-up the same combo and possibly kill them. In other words you SHOULD know some form of this combo. It is a difference of 857 damage compared to the regular relaunch, now that is A LOT of lost damage if you aren't doing these combos. -You can also do seal combos off the IAD j.4C stuff. That way you can get seals + damage, but it still wouldn't be more damage outright. Crouching: Back to Corner/Far From Corner: -You can do the relaunch StayFree posted, but you better make absolutely sure you can do it all the time cause there are a few places that it is likely to drop. It is a difference of 442 damage though compared to the basic crouching BnB, so it is worth it if you learn it, at least compared to the other standing one that was just 9 more damage than the other basic relaunch. -If you REALLY want FRKZ, with 50% you can get 4 seals off 5A crouching. 5A > 5B > 2B > 5D > sj.4C > C Nail > RC > j.D > C Nail > j.D > C Nail > 5D = Only does 1733 DMG for 50% but you get 4 seals. Starting Positions (opponent at least at Player 2's spot): 5A > 5B > 2B > 5D > j.B > j.4C > j.623B > (d.5C) > d.6D > 2B > 6C > j.4C > j.C = 2818 (2935) DMG = Easy enough for extra damage. Corner (standing or crouching): -5A > 5B > 2B > (2C) > 623B > 5B > 6C > 7j.4C > j.623B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.4C > jc (j.4C) > (7)j.C > (B Nail) = 3287 DMG = Corner off 5A or 2A or 5A>2A. You can include the 2C with 5A starter. Corner Standing (character specific): -5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > "dash under" 5C > 2C > 623B > 2B > 5B > j.A > j.B > j.4C > jc (j.4C) > (7)j.C > (B Nail) = 3452 DMG = More damage but character specific and standing only, so less "universal". The 5C is being done as you're dashing so it isn't really dash under>5C, it is "dash under" 5C. You are more likely to mess this combo up than the above. Corner (standing or crouching): [5B > 2B] or [5C] > 2C > 623B > 5B > 6C > 7j.4C > j.623B > 6C > j.B > j.4C > j.C > (5A > 5B > Ashura) = 4076 (5166) DMG = Slightly different combo than off of 5A or the others. 5C starter does less damage.

Thin line for what?

I don't know if these have been posted here, if they have please delete this post, I looked at the 1st post and didn't notice them. These are I guess "semi-official" versions of the characters as the opposite gender, from the official art for the game Lost Saga (which they are featured in). Since Ragna being in LoV was posted I guess these should count as well. Ragna: Jin: (for obvious reasons female version looks like Noel) Hazama: Platinum: Rachel: Non-BB fighting game characters just as extra: Collapsed: ] [img: http://i.imgur.com/ydVmVsM.jpg

That was kinda annoying considering the circumstances, but otherwise it was ok. GGs everyone.

I'll get on and play you for a little while if you want.

Where do you live if you don't mind me asking? I finally fixed my 360 so I can play people on here again, but I only stick to EC and slightly MW people.

Lol, I was actually going to mention BB when I saw you had a Platinum avatar on there but you changed it. It'll be useful if I ever end up doing that stuff again, but I don't even know if I will. Either way good stuff as I said before.

It's all relative so it doesn't really work like that.

I have no results to go by for the west. And I barely play the game so....

As far as I'm aware BB's is updated as of the latest known qualifiers (posted on the last page). It also seems like the qualifiers are over, so whoever is listed is who will be playing in the Arc Revo Cup. All the qualifiers were apparently over after 4/21. Arc Revo Cup is happening on 5/19.

Netplay: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqx4Lo8VwHy2dHBxUmZmOXA1Szc2ODdiSlNrcmRiUWc&usp=sharing

GGs alt. accounts, I'm pretty sure you're on here I just don't remember who you are. Stop picking training mode stage. I'd like to actually know if I can do my combos or not.

It has guard point. It's just that burst is only one "attack" so it was absorbed and the rest of the move was able to punish. It's just like Bang's drives in that sense, except Bang's drives can actually absorb multiple "attacks". She really had no choice but to burst so it wasn't too hard of a read to make, but knowing that Sentinel Dump can work like that is smart.

Unless there's something lost in translation, the frame data implies to me that 1-16f after absorbing a projectile he could technically be hit but after that, 17f-35f he's invul. Or there could be a mook error, cause the section of Growler has a TON of information, all of which was translated and is on the frame data page but what you see is what you get. If anyone remembers back when we first got info, there was mention of Growler absorbing Hazama's chains but getting CH immediately after. There's also this: http://youtu.be/9zgjdNvlA8Q?t=27m3s Either he got hit during the recovery or he tried to press a button which seems unlikely given that situation but who knows (it was a counter hit at least). And when Dogura was fighting the other Arakune he was constantly blocking after absorbing the bugs, which tells me Azrael has to block after it at least.

Possibly Rachel/Amane/Bullet. I wouldn't really base the Arakune match-up on that one video, although it did show that Growler can be useful. I'd advise going through the video thread and watch all the Vs. Arakune ones and then decide. Since another Arakune player might know how to deal with that better than the one he played against.

While I'm not going to agree or disagree one way or the other, I would question why those players would put Ragna there if they somehow didn't think it was "realistic" for him to be there. At least compared to the others (who for the most part seem accurate enough by outside opinions as well). I could understand 1 person saying he was S or A and ignoring it for an exaggeration, but multiple people agreeing? With the rest of their tierlists being similar enough as well to the point of not being too questionable? Like everyone agrees Taokaka is great and Izayoi is bad without question, yet when those same people agree Ragna is "good" it is automatically jokes, something doesn't match up. So I would ask why? Then we see results that show Ragna players aren't actually doing too bad either. If someone said Ragna and Tager were A tier I wouldn't automatically disagree, cause it seems entirely plausible from what I've watched.