zeth07

If you're referring to Kurushii's post, I already mentioned that in the Video Discussion thread. Maybe he missed my post though. If you're referring to the Nico Video links, most of the time there are no links to those on the Gamechariot sites, unless I am mistaken. But I sure don't see any. You didn't refer to what links you are talking about, so I can't be sure and neither can the other people to know who is "wrong" for posting them. Gamechariot 02/27/10 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10263290 Kaqn (HA) vs. Shadow (HA) http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10263163 Naru (HZ) vs. Fio (LI) (Beginning – 6:49) Kaqn (HA) vs. Fio (LI) (6:50 – End) http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10262734 Keita (TA) vs. Yumura (TG) (Beginning – 5:20) Aatei (HZ) vs. Yumura (TG) (5:21 – 11:45) Shadow (HA) vs. Yumura (TG) (11:46 – End) (for the Hazama vs. Tager match, I think in the description they say that they posted Nekonin as the name but that was an error) * Fixed Aatei's name, from rtl42 saying it might be wrong + me checking it compared to another old video + ryokoalways coincidentally posting a new video with Aatei in it.

Bang Matches: Bomb Hei (TG) vs. Master (BA) A1 Pickups Den (BA) vs. Akira (TG) A1 Pickups Shadow (HA) vs. Slipper (BA) A2 Pickups Nekosogi (RG) vs. R-Kai (BA) B1 Pickups Doyaemon （TA）　VS　Shou (BA) B1 Pickups -Some name translations carried over from Kurushii's translations of the 2nd tournament or I knew them from previous translations done and just referenced the huge list I have / am trying to compile of Japanese names + translated name + character + colors used. -R-Kai translation came from Ronove's Top 10 GC Arcade Translations. -Nekosogi was "Google Translated" as I was searching the characters used to find the Bang matches, so I double checked that one and it appeared right. Someone please confirm or give me the correct translation if I was wrong so I can change it. -EDIT: Thanks to souseta for the translations of the Tao vs. Bang match.

My thoughts: Considering that is a FRKZ combo you have to take some things into consideration- 1) How many combos did it take you to get 4 Seals + 50% Heat for FRKZ? 2) How much health do they still have left? 1 - Even if you manage a 4 seal early, you probably aren't close to 50% heat. So let's just say hypothetical you will get 4 seals + 50% heat at 2 combos. That is easily 6k in damage already. 2 - Considering #1, if you hit them with said combo, the majority of the cast will probably be dead or borderline dead after it. So why not end with a combo that is flashy as hell and probably demoralizing. *3 - I thought someone mentioned something about Bang being invincible during the recovery of Ashura landing for at least a few frames. So even though you might not get oki, I don't necessarily think you are in danger. Especially if they are practically dead and scared at that point. At least that is my thought process when considering that combo.

Name Translations by Kurushii (thank you again, it helps a lot) Bang Matches Only (sorry about any duplicates between Skye's videos) Round 1 Ｆ（Lambda）　VS　Slipper（Bang) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as32fUr798g Reki（Ragna）　VS　Den（Bang） http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v5F0MX9zok Nagakura（Carl）　VS　Masutani（Bang） http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0tj3c1jEKU Round 2 Dora（Bang）　VS　Slipper（Bang） http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngEtw-ctvkM Satoshi（Bang）　VS　Den（Bang） http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9ZYDuOB3RA Sanchi（Litchi）　VS　Masutani（Bang） http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-06sImZ09_0 Quarter-Final Dora（Bang）　VS　Satoshi（Bang） http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UveuqBJCRyA Semi-Final Souji（Arakune）　VS　Dora（Bang) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uroEDvMy6U

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=568952 They said it was 80% done, so I'm not sure if they still need people but I guess you can contact them. EDIT: lol I should have just said look below this thread.

BB:CS Mook has all the frame data. Pretty sure people are working on translating it.

Just to give some perspective: 5C's on Block: Rachel = -15 Lambda = -14 (-8) Taokaka = -13 Bang = -10 Litchi = -9 Tsubaki = -9 Hazama = -9 Ragna = -8 Noel = -7 Jin = -6 Arakune = -4 Carl = -4 Tager = -3 Hakumen = -3 (pretty sure they are the right numbers for everyone) So I guess what each person determines as "safe" might be different. You would have to take into consideration the range + followups + on block frames. Hypothetically speaking, if a move has good range and not horrendous frames it could be considered "safe" even on block, just because the opponent has to make up ground or having a move that can do that. Instead of just saying it is blocked at point blank range and easier to punish. So whether or not it puts you in a positive situation (frames or actual spacing), might be a moot point when calling a move safe or not. And that is not even considering the possible follow-ups. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just saying there are a lot of things to consider when calling a move "safe", especially when people might think of that term differently. An easy answer would be anything in - frames or not 0/+ on block means it isn't "safe".

I guess I was just going by the numbers, Arakune / Hakumen can break 10k, while some of the other characters are a few thousand damage behind and still just as situational.

He can also do those "death combos" off a regular Drive Counter as long as he has "100%". Much like Bang's average damage, I also don't see how he can have the same Max Damage rating as Hakumen especially when you wanted to consider the practical use of it and the pure "max damage" numbers. Also, the reasoning for Bang's S rating (EDIT: for Max Damage) doesn't really stand out as S rating material compared to Hakumen / Arakune. Especially since there was no mention of FRKZ which is where Bang's big damage / max damage combos really come from. It isn't that far-fetched to see the Arakune max damage combos since we do see them a lot in the Japanese videos, and the Hakumen ones could still be viable if he decides to play defensively (which he is more than capable of doing so). While Bang's max damage or really huge damage come off something even more situational, in fact there has been only 1 real occasion (from videos) where we really see HUGE damage from Bang. It was off of a j.4C CH on Hakumen during FRKZ (50% initial heat) and had Ashura at the end (50%) and it still didn't break 8k. And that was ONE time we've seen that kind of damage and it was completely situational.

I was going to comment on the Bang stuff but realized that it would be kind of pointless since it was your opinion and you yourself said it isn't going to be perfect. And even if I said anything it would just be nitpicking at your own opinion relative to my own, which while it may be discussion seems kinda pointless I guess. But so my post isn't completely pointless, I will say good job taking the time to type all that out and giving some solid overall information for people to use to continue actual game discussion. So props for that. EDIT: Just for an example of what I would say, I think the disparity between Bang getting S for average damage and some other characters seems off. If Average Damage is supposed to be off BnB's Bang is more like B+, A-, A. S seems like an exaggeration, especially going by those standards you just posted.

I honestly thought that was what you meant. As in you were going to do a match-up by match-up breakdown. So are you doing a "detailed" breakdown of the characters themselves instead?

Same here. Should be interesting at least.

Too late for that my friend.

That video was awesome. It will be added to the video thread.

New Ko-Hatsu 2 on 2 from Youtube: Yellow Tager vs. Default Litchi Brown Ragna vs. Default Litchi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhQ8p5ZM39w Pink Tao vs. Pink Carl Red Hakumen vs. Default Ragna http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGzKnM1-hmI Pink Tao vs. Default Litchi Red Hakumen vs. Default Litchi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-ywsbfy4eQ

If I wasn't poor and had free money to throw around to start again for supplies and shirts, I could actually do Dustloop shirts because I have an entire Screen Printing setup. I have a 4 color press, and all that good stuff. Problem is I don't have any good screens anymore, my emulsion is probably ruined from being too old now, I don't have many colors or probably enough paint, and I'm not sure how many blank shirts I have anymore (or what sizes). Besides all that, I don't even have any space to setup the press anymore. Probably useless for me to even say all that anyway I guess since I can't actually do it. But the idea of Dustloop shirt once a logo is made, is not too bad.

He is referring to the new j.4C which looks like 6C but in the air. The old j.4C is now j.4B.

They go by Rounds? I did not know that, I thought it was just out of 10 matches. I guess I just won't question it then and let it be.

First, I didn't "selectively pull" matches. I watched/checked EVERY Bang vs. Hazama match that has been posted on this forum. There was nothing selective about it. You can arguably say that these matches are between the Top 5 Bangs / Hazamas respectively, since it is usually the same handful of players in these matches we always see. So any issue of "same level" shouldn't really matter for the sake of the match-up itself. Because they are all really good and each have different styles. Second, I actually was questioning the match-up based off the results alone and not anything directly related to the moves and playing styles. I did not outright say I think the match-up is much worse than it says, I questioned it. More or less asking the same thing as you, what makes the match-up nearly Even for Hazama against Bang and vice versa? Yet no one has actually provided any points either about the playing styles and what have you.......... Like I said, I was questioning it not outright saying it should be different. My point is, if the match-up was truly 5.5-4.5, then Hazama should be able to win nearly just as many matches against Bang since that is exactly what the numbers are referring to. Yet in actuality the difference is pretty far off, by nearly 2 points. Just as another reference, I started to go through the Jin matches and the results were relatively the same. Bang was winning at a nearly 7-3 ratio. And we have about 50 or so matches against Jin so it is a much greater sample. Now the difference is, Bang vs. Jin is actually listed at 6.5-3.5. This is a much closer reflection of the actual results, only a .5 difference. So why is it that the Bang vs. Jin match-up is accurately reflected by the results and only a .5 difference, yet the Hazama match-up is nearly 2 points off the listing compared to the results? That is why I would actually like someone to explain the match-up and why it is 5.5-4.5, instead of just saying the actual match results are meaningless. There isn't really any major details in the Bang Match-ups Thread for me to have any reference, which is why I was bringing up this discussion.

*Take this for what you will* The chart and the Arcadia list have Bang v. Hazama as 5.5-4.5, so I decided to cross-examine that with actual "results". I am the person who organizes the Bang Video Thread, so I take all the links posted in the Video Posting thread and organize them by Vs. Character. So I decided to go through and watch every Bang vs. Hazama match and see who actually won the match-ups. Tier Lists are supposed to represent a Out of 10 Matches based on 2 tournament level players, so these Japanese matches pretty much have that covered in terms of skill levels. Of course in theory it is going by one player vs. another player and not different players each time, but for arguments sake lets just say all these videos = the "average" tournament level player playing against each other each time. First, for ease I went through each of the Youtube links first. There were 14 matches. Bang won 10 of them, Hazama won 4. Bang = 71% (7) Hazama = 29% (3) 7-3.... Second, I went through the Nico links. There were 12 matches. Bang won 10 of them, and Hazama won 2. Bang = 83% (8) Hazama = 17% (2) 8-2.... Third, we go by the Totals instead of just separated because of different things: Bang won 20/26 Hazama won 6/26 Bang = 77% (8) Or (7.5) Hazama = 23% (2) Or (2.5) OR to be even more fair, let's just say it was 7-3. So I would question how a match-up that is SUPPOSED to be 5.5-4.5 and fairly even, turns into 7-3 and completely one-sided when it comes to actual match results. I mean if we are talking .5 differences for certain match-ups and not clear cut numbers, how can the difference be so great from the opinions of the players on what the match-up is, compared to the actual results of the matches?? They aren't even saying it is 6-4 to be nice (compared to 7-3 or 6.5-3.5), they are saying it is only a .5 difference between being an Even match.....When just to be more nice to the match-up for Hazama the results were lowered from 77%-23% to just 7-3, instead of 7.5-2.5, or even rounding up/down to 8-2. So my question for the discussion is why is there such a disparity between their opinions and the actual results? *I would like to go through all of Bang's match-ups and do this little experiment as well just out of curiosity. Just to see how the results directly compare to the opinions of the match-ups.*