dragontamer

Well, I never claimed it was good. I claimed that 214A beats 6D mashers. I'm sure better Hakumen realize that Noel has a multitude of options after a blocked 5B, and do more than just mash 6D / 2D in the 5B -> 5C link.

Yeah, 2D makes 214A whiff. 214A is anti 6D for sure however. I guess (Hakumen) 2D mashers can just eat a (Noel) 6B or 2D.

Lol. 5B cancels into 214A. Sooooo many Hakumens fall for this.

Oh yeah, no doubt its in Noel's favor. Now as I said in GFAQs: Heroic_Legacy, stop beating me with Tager, and start losing like you are supposed to. :-p

Drives are about frametraps for the most part. Usually, 214D beats dragon punches (sometimes you need to "slow down" and do a 5A whiff -> 214D vs Jin, because 623C is so damn slow), 28D beats him if he tries to jab you out of a drive (as well as various more reliable frame traps, but 28D works on everything... although its a bit unsafe)

It is invulnerable to all of Tager's aerials. How can it NOT beat all of Tager's aerial attacks? But if you don't believe me on Noel's 5B, then just go into training mode. Do Noel's 5B from max range to see the length, then have Tager to a 5B -> 720C. Obviously, without magnetism, because magnetism changes everything. 6D on backdash. Lol. (Sarcasm btw, but it kinda works)

Nope. 5B -> 6B is only a 13 frame hole. Even if he instant-blocks, the A Sledge won't come out in time. And if you are doing 5B from 360A or 720C range, you're doing it wrong. 5B outranges both 360A and 720C. (at least, if you whiff it, you aren't in range during the recovery) When you are doing 5A spam, sure, you worry about that grab, but zone Tager with 5B (when he's on the ground) and 6A (when he jumps) and you should be pretty good overall. I agree. 5B spam is the way to victory vs Tager. 5B CH 3C goodness right there.

Oh shit, you're psychic. Thats why you beat me. Sledge is projectile invincible on frame 1. Tager can sledge between 5B -> 5C. Of course, if Tager keeps doing that, Noel can just go 5B -> 6B -> 3C -> lol 22C loop.

When Tager can sledge through Noel's 5B, maybe the matchup will be in his Favor. Until then, CH 5B 3C into 5k Heatless 22C loop means that Noel has the speed, mobility, and damage advantage over Tager. I agree. In addition: 2. Also, 6A beats out all of Tager's aerials, and 6C beats many of them and leads to knockdown. 3. Optic Barrel from full screen puts Tager right where Noel wants him. Either in -19 frames of blockstun (blocking), in the air (lol, Noel's anti-air game), sledge-whiffing (nearly free 6A combo, outside of 720C gimmicks off of whiffed sledge), or charging the spark bolt (essentially... good chance for a 3C into 22c loop combo)

Jin is by far, the easiest character to 214D RC 6C in my experience. My issue is the supers out of tech rolls. IE: 623A or 214C out of backroll, because in this game specials cancel you out of rolls. I haven't tested it, but does 2B whiff on Ice Car?

The thing about "beating" neutral tech is that you need to wait a long time (~30 frames or so) and then time your attack to hit them as their invincibility frames finish. (if they are blocking, at least you got them in a block string, and you can probably convert that into a mixup) "Beating" quick rise means you need to just mash 5A (or some attack) as soon as they get up. So when waking up, a good mixup between neutral tech and quick-rise is almost always healthy. (Not vs most D spamming Nus. D Spam is practically always beaten by a well timed neutral tech -> dash in while Nu recovers from a whiffed sword)

King of Heart, it sounds like your Oki strategy is off. First: Chase the opponent's wakeup, there are only 4 options your opponent can do. 1. Techroll forward -- This is beaten by a well timed 2B, 5A, etc. etc. You can combo Nu out if she techrolls forward. (similarly, she can combo you, so be careful about rolling forward) 2. Techrolll backwards -- Against most characters, be careful (ie: Jin can techroll back and then 623A) However, Nu has no options. You can only execute specials out of a roll, Nu doesn't have anything that she can do out of this roll. (Unlike Dragon Punches, Tager's 720C, etc. etc.). So just tech chase and apply pressure. 3. Neutral Tech -- Opponent is fully invunerable, but can't do anything. A well timed meaty attack (6B is a good meaty) will beat her if she mashes out. Well timed 5A spam will beat anything Nu tries to do. 4. Quick Rise -- Opponent is completely vunerable, but gets up quickly. Justs smack her as she gets up, and start a combo. No matter the situation, you get the first hit on Nu. Nu has NO wakeup options, you should always beat her on wakeup. -------------- Also, don't use 3C outside of combos / pressure. Hell, I'd say never use it outside of hitconfirms. 3C is an extremely unsafe attack, its even less safe than Jin's Ice Car. So don't use it carelessly. 2C is a decent attack when applying pressure, but it is slow Focus on Noel's pressure game, which involves a generous heaping of 5A and throws.

Dragon Punches have full invincible startup. 2C is not. Because it is only lowerbody invincible (it is NOT upperbody invincible... wtf?), the first hit is not an overhead, and the 2nd hit comes out so slow that you can react to it. (Between the hitstop, the startup, and the active frames... you've got 27 frames to react to the 2nd hit) TK 214D is v13's mixup, not 4B. 4B goes into a nasty combo, but if you focus you should be able to react to it 100% of the time, and it is not a defensive option... What is your approach? IAD loses to 2C unless you instant block / barrier block, and the ground game needs to be ready for both 5D and 3C. Focus on punishing whiffs. Once you are in, you are in: Nu's only option left is to backdash. Stay on her on wakeups, tech chase her and remain at point-blank range at all times.

That doesn't make sense. Dragon Punches are invincible from frame 1. 2C doesn't come out till frame 10. (9 frames of startup). And unless you are spamming lows (why spam lows? 5A spam is so godly)... 4B shouldn't be an issue either.

Drive 6C is actually pretty good on block, Drive 6C -> 5B will beat everything except Cat-Chair, and will end the drive reasonably safely. (Drive 6C -> (5 frames) -> 5B -> (5 frames) -> 236D is another reasonably safe exit, the 236D is now outside the range of Cat Chair) The 5 Frame hole beats all of Rachels grabs and jabs. 214D beats cat-chair (Guard point on frame 5, so it beats 4 frame holes) for a knockdown, and Rachel doesn't have any wakeup options. 5B hit confirms to (Drive) 5B RC 66A 6C BC (loop) 5D -> BNB if you have heat for nearly 4k damage. Without heat, 5B after a 6C hit confirms into 28D for a knockdown (or a corner combo). So if Rachel wants to cat-chair you, you have your options to punish. If she doesn't want to cat chair you and would rather keep blocking, then you eat like 50% of her guard libra / barrier. When you learn to Barrier Burst trap, and eating barrier becomes a significant advantage. Drive 6C is very slow however, and is easy to instant block. Instant blocking Drive 6C turns (Drive) 6C -> (instant Block) -> 28D into a 1 frame hole, so an instant blocked (Drive) 6C has the best frame trap ever. (Drive) 6C -> instant block -> 214D is reasonably safe as well due to the invincibility frames on 214D, and is a bit "safer" than 28D. (214D is still punishable however, just harder to punish than 28D) Drive 6C -> (wait) -> 28D is technically a frame trap, you just need to delay the 28D by 4 frames, lol. >_< I dunno if its humanly possible, but if you can do Guilty Gear FRCs, you probably can learn to do that. So you just need to know how to play the Drive 6C game. This mind game works with everyone with 1 frame options. 214D beats Ragna's and Litchi's DPs. (Drive) 6C -> 5B is faster than Jin's 623B dragon punch invincibility, and (Drive) 6C -> 5A (whiff) -> 214D beats 623C. (Jin's DP is slow, so the 5A whiff is necessary to "time" it right. Normally, the 214D comes out too fast, lol). Strangely enough, a slightly delayed 214D will even beat Tager's 360A or 720C. Of course, chain revolver spam vs Tager is a great idea. </sarcasm> ------------- That said, you are still playing a 50/50 % game vs Rachel. 214D may beat cat chair, but it doesn't beat say... a slightly delayed grab. Although, a blocked 5B leaves you in a decent position afterwards, with +15 frames if you continue chain revolver, and definitely a safe exit. Plus, Rachel Cat Chair and Grabs with wind combos into a possible corner trap... so this game is very dangerous for both sides. It is hard for me to make a conclusion on this. But thats my analysis of the (Drive) 6C game. IMO, it is definitely an advantage vs Nu, Litchi, and Carl. Even when Litchi's has her staff... her only option (623D) forces her to lose the staff and if you 214D her... it leads to a knocked down Staffless Litchi. (w00t). Taokaka can crawl under (Drive) 5B, so (Drive) 5A and 2D beat that (obviously :-p). 5A is more punishable than 5B, and 2D is more punishable on block. So the (Drive) 6C game is very different, but IMO, still in Noel's advantage. Bang, Rachel, and Ragna, I'm unsure. I think landing the (Drive) 6C is in your advantage, but there is really no "safe enough" option to get to 6C. (Between 5D -> 6C, they all can punish you heavily... and the advantages of (Drive) 6C don't seem to make up for the risk) Jin has 623D to screw up your anti-623C timing. So even less useful on Jin. Mirror Match Noel, Hakumen, and Tager have too many defensive options that seem like they're built to destroy the (Drive) 6C game. Landing (Drive) 6C is in the opponent's advantage, so you shouldn't use it against them. Particularly, Noel has 5A and 3C, which practically shuts down the entire game all together. Hakumen has 6D, 5D, and 2D. Tager has 360A, Sledge, 720C, etc. etc. ------------------------ I'll offer my 2 cents on the video later... I'm out of time atm >_< ----------------------------------------------------- For Video 1: Overall, I don't think you used 6B or 2D at all. Use more overheads, especially when the opponent keeps blocking low. Also, remember that dashing back in for 5A spam can lead to a throw. Know Rachel's blockstrings. They eat tons of guard libra, but you need to be patient. You keep getting hit between Rachel's 5B -> 5C, which is a 1-frame trap. Noel can't do anything except counter-super that hole. Keep blocking till after the 5C. Don't try to jam out while the frog is out, etc. etc. Dropped combo at ~30 seconds. Practice practice practice. Good job recovering though. As a side note, 6A totally beats Rachel's j.2C. Head invunerability + antiair + combo afterwards. If you are going for a "clash" vs an aerial Rachel, go for 6A. Its safer, has invincibility, and has no "oh shit, I whiffed" situation. 5B is a bad idea vs crouching Rachel. 5C is a mixup opportunity you never used. Remember, you can go for a high/low mixup off of 5C with 5C -> 2D / 3C / jump cancel j.D crossup / j.D false-crossup. I don't think you're utilizing j.B either. It is a useful air-to-air that leads to a good 2k damage combo. Learn to hitconfirm your j.As into j.B -> j.C -> j.236C. On a crouching opponent, if you land a (Drive) 6C, 28D -> 6C BC (loop) -> Drive BNB. (Drive) 6C is easy to hitconfirm, so you should have no issues. Obviously, on a standing opponent, go for the 214A combo. --------------------- Video 2: Okay, you're Drive Spamming 5D -> 5B -> 5C. Nothing too bad with that. It isn't safe from 2C distance, but your opponent wasn't punishing you. However, the crucial event happened in this video, you finally guard crushed the opponent. STOP, reload your guns, and enjoy your free combo. Guard Crush is what you are aiming for with this chain. If you aren't going for the Guard Crush, opt for a safer route. I suggests 5D -> 5B -> 236D or similar. Don't use (Drive) 5C unless you have the reaction speed to take advantage of that massive guard crush opportunity. Faster frame traps include 5B -> (7) 5A -> (2) 5B -> (7) 5A -> (5) 236D. Or, use 5B -> (9) 5D -> (7) 5B -> (5) 236D. Use Chain Revolver blockstrings that force Litchi to use her DP on you. If you hit a crouching opponent with 2D, go for a (Drive) 5A -> (if necessary) 6A -> 28D into 6C -> Air Combo. Also, you MUST lock down your opponent in Guard Stun if you are going to Drive Spam. Whiffs are extremely dangerous. Utilize (Drive) 5D to "move forward", and even (Drive) 6A if you have to "dash in" to the opponent. Overall, 5D, 5A, and 6A (on hit) move you closer to the opponent. 5B and 6B push them away. Control your movement, and remain in the optimal spacing. Also, you have a lot of (Drive) 5C counter-hits. These have massive combo opportunities. I haven't explored them all... but the stagger on 5C CH is massive.

6C followup is "safer" on block, (not much safer mind you, but reloading your guns is TERRIBLE, extremely unsafe) and I'm terrible at hit confirming. Yes, 5D CH -> 5D does more damage. But I know my own limits :-p

And of course, Noel's j.B and Air Grabs are the Anti Anti Anti Anti-Air attacks. BTW: Point taken.

When I run back in to continue 5A however, I'm open to counter 5A spam or 360A or 720C. If you barrier block, there are only 2 5As that I can do before I'm forced to move in with another attack. At least when I was fighting MojoPlenty earlier today, 5B seemed like the key to victory vs Tager, and not 5A. 5A is pretty good, but getting in to do more 5A is the problem.

Hmm, I seem to typically screw up the landing however, and end up getting Instant-Blocked then grabbed. The worst thing with the 236236D air distortion is that you waste the heat. (ie: its blocked). But no big deal, they didn't throw -> Atomic Collider combo you into a potential high-damage reset / setup.

Air Super is an anti-anti air. Basically, the other Tager is 623C or 2C happy, I deliver a Thor to their face. If they just sit there and take your air approach over and over, then you know what to do, keep spamming those air attacks until they learn to anti-air. As soon as they start anti-airing you, Thor becomes a good option.

Yeah, but I find CH 5D much easier to do, because of the invincibility frames. 5C CH is better.

If he misses SledgeHammer, be ready for a potential 720C Followup. I'm somewhat sure that Tager has no anti-air after a whiffed Sledge. "Random" drives don't work, but 5B and 236D are reasonably safe in my experience if you entered chain revolver. Any move getting into those drives is unsafe, but it is IMO safer to end with 5B or 236D than to reload your guns. Tager's Backdash is one of the few that is actually long enough to make 5B or 236D whiff, but you shouldn't be in grab range after a 5B or 236D whiff. (Noel stays "back" during these attacks) Overall, my opinion of the matchup is this: Tager can't move in safely vs Noel, and Optic Barrel is good to force Tager to block, sledge, or charge. In each of the 3 cases, you can move in somewhat safely. Blocking Optic Barrel gives Noel a good frame advantage. A Whiffed Sledge is a disadvantage for Tager (watch for gimmicks), and charging opens Tager up to pressure (or running 3C if he's still charging when you're close)

Hmm, I must have been confused about another combo. I finally was able to test it out last night, and you're right, it seems as if they can tech out of that one. (Remove the 5C and start with 5D instead, and the full air combo works) Yeah, j.B j.C 236C seems like the optimal combo from that situation.

Yup. Hells Fang followup is -24 frames. Other moves to look out for are Dragon Punches (except Litchi, her's is pretty fast), blocked Daifunkas / mirror match Fenrirs, Arakune 2Cs and so forth. Also, the combo can go longer. And a 22C can be placed in there somewhere, but I'm unsure if it is more optimal to do the 22C after the 6C or the full air combo. So here's just the air combo. 5C 5D 6C 214A 2B 6C j.C j.B (jump cancel) j.B j.C j.236C You gotta do it quickly at the end if you don't want a hole, but it is possible.

Lol. Against Hakumen, I sit there waiting for them to air dash at me. The n00bs come in, eat an air combo, fall to the ground, and repeat until they die. The better ones sit there and wait. Thats when I realize that they have like 5 stars built up because I've been doing nothing