dragontamer

Same as any other kara. Hit BC within 2 frames of the 5D.

Just an update, now that I have more than a few days of experience with Noel. 5D still has the same problems as CT. It is very difficult to force an opponent to block 5D and enter chain revolver pressure. 24 frames of startup is just too much. Fortunately, 6B -> 5D is still available. Its a 6-frame hole, so the opponent can still jump and jab out of it, but at least most opponents won't be able to mash grab. Of course, this is on normal block. Fortunately, 6B -> 2D beats jabs but goes nowhere as far as pressure is concerned. I've had a lot of success with the 5D -> d.5B -> d.6A etc. etc. blockstring, but I still can't figure out a safe way to exit chain revolver. d.5B and d.236D don't push them as far back and seem more punishable in CS than in CT. EDIT: Damn, I miss +19 frames on optic barrel. It was a good way to start 5D

Theoretically, -20 frames means that 3C should barely punish if you blocked the first frame of the attack. But it seems outside the range of 5C. Anything slower than 11 frames won't counter-hit. I'll mash it out in training mode later...

IIRC, Rolls are considered crouching state. So if your opponent rolls, 2D can cross them up.

Perhaps, but that is where the argument has taken us so far. What mixup? 2D isn't an overhead anymore. Everything hits low or mid I'd say that 2C is a good option to end your blockstrings with. It doesn't go anywhere in a real match, but its good for pushing the opponent away and safely getting back onto the defensive. Its not like Noel has any good pressure options anymore... you get one chance at a mixup. 5A -> 6B or 5A -> 2B. After that, you really don't have a safe blockstring afterwards... So rather often, I find myself going to 2C to resign my offensive. Offensively, I agree with you. Its not that great of a move. But on a blocked 5C, what else are you gonna do really? Its pretty much 5C -> block or 5C -> 2C to end your blockstrings.

I agree. However, the argument currently is pretty specific. I'm saying 2C -> 3C is a good punish for opponents who think that mashing attacks after 2C is a good idea. 90% of the time, I'll be doing 2C -> block... but if I notice an opponent is a bit too dedicated to attacking after 2C, I'll be ready to 2C -> 3C to punish him. (EDIT: hmm... maybe 99% of the time I'd do 2C -> block) 2D is in a similar boat, although it is a bit slower but has a nice hitbox and beats out people who mash 2A. 2D is also slightly safer on block than 3C. Not much safer, but you can sometimes do a random 623D after a 2D. 2D -> d.5A has also become an option as a ~3-frame trap off of 2D. Not a good block string by any stretch of the imagination (especially because d.5A doesn't have anything but a delayed 623D to punish opponents with...) but its not "totally free -18 frames counterhit + crouching state punish" like a blocked 3C is.

2C, being a multi-hit attack, can be canceled on the first hit. So while your argument applies to 2C -> 5C, it does not apply to 2C -> 2D / 3C. EDIT: Don't get me wrong, going 3C every time is a bad idea. However, 2C -> 3C is the very core of what Noel is: high risk, high reward. (and unfortunately... she's at the moment a "high reward, higher risk kind of character )

Starter 2D and 5D (and d.5D) have pretty mediocre P2 for a drive move actually. d.2D strangely enough is one of the best... only d.6C is better from a damage / proration point of view. d.2D is better than even bloom trigger. 2C -> 3C is a 3-frame trap, meaning normal blocking 2C and attempting to jump will get caught by the 3C. The slow low-crush moves that beat 3C will be beaten by 2C -> 2D. Not that 2D is a good idea after 2C... but there are plenty of ways to punish an opponent who mashes after 2C. Hell, you're +1 frames, so 2C -> 5C is probably going to stuff whatever they try to do.

I agree there. I haven't played around much, but 2D -> 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> 2D -> 623D -> 66C etc. etc. does a fair amount of damage. I haven't even tried to optimize it yet.... And yes, the "inside a drive" 2D is a different move than "starter" 2D. So you can use them both in a combo without activating the Same Move Proration Penalty.

Its a decent frametrap from 2C. If you can train your opponent to attack after 2C, then 2D and 3C tend to beat whever they're about to do. Plus, 100% P1 and 90% P2 makes it a good combo starter technically.

5D will beat both. 2D will beat the low one (I think 214D~C). Both have nice combos on counter-hit... 2D has smaller proration but 5D has more damage. I have a feeling that 5D is going to be a better choice in both cases however.

Bullshit. You only get 3 free busters per match. After that, Noel is dead. So no more free busters for you.

Well... my point is that we never had an out to begin with

2D gets screwed by Tager's 5A and Atomic Collider, 4D can get 360A. 5A/Atomic beat jump. The only thing new seems to be punishing a Backdash with a whiff confirmed Gadget Finger -> 720C / 360B. I don't think backdash was a good option anyway because 360A could be held down. It may have gotten worse for Noel, but it never was good in the first place. If you get Gadget Fingered by Tager, you're pretty much in a 50/50 for the round. BTW: Gadget Finger doesn't do any damage, right? So its not like getting caught in the 2nd Gadget Finger gives much aside from extra magnetism. It probably psychs out the opponent... I think the real benefit here is not in catching jumpers, but beating backdashers when you whiff the 2nd Gadget Finger.

Here are my issues: 1. BlazBlue has a 5 frame buffer, so overall, it is "easier" to get the rhythm in this game, because you can be off by as much as 1/12th of a second and still get the majority of combos. 2. A number of combos are spacing dependant. For example, Noel's Haida loop can only be done from a certain distance, and against certain characters for a certain number of times. The timing is the easy part IMO for this loop. 3. Combos are not the meat of the game. All players will eventually learn good combos by just playing this game for a long time. However, learning spacing, strategies, pressure strings and so forth are the real difficulty of this game. Focusing so much energy on Combos misrepresents what you should be practicing.

Are you still playing CT? j.A was awesome back then... However, Tager has anti-airs now. 623C and 2C have some upper body invincibility now. And even if Tager's 2C trades with your j.A spam, Tager gets a fatal counter into Gadget finger Oki. Noel's 5B was soooo nurfed in this matchup, it isn't funny :-( And as bad as CT optic barrel was.... its a ton better vs Tager, because CT Optic Barrel gave +19 frames on block and comboed into 6C loop on counter-hit. You don't even get useful Oki if Continuum Shift 236C Optic Barrel counter-hits Tager. I can't think of a good reason to use it vs Tager.... ever really. Long range Optic Barrel is now -5 frames on block, and doesn't seem to have any combos without a rapid. And I swear that Optic Barrel is smaller now... So even if you do land a hit, I don't see any use for it. Zones the hell out of Tager though Too bad it doesn't go anywhere useful. Noel's Anti-Airs were nurfed, but at least 4D seems solid vs Tager's jump ins (in my limited experience). Noel's air-to-air was severely nurfed, I don't feel confident in attacking Tager in the air anymore. I guess its a better idea to spam D now, but that never works vs a character with godly grabs and projectile invincible attacks. Oh well, 5A spam and j.A spam were a bit cheap in the last game, so I'm fine with eating an unfavorable matchup this time around.

I know. But if you want to play safe, there is no safer way to get the d.6B / 6D mixup than d.6C. So the only safer option is to use d.5B to push them away. However, the idea is to get d.6C to get them as a meaty wakeup option. j.4D is too slow and doesn't have enough active frames to be used as a serious Oki tool. d.6C is meaty, guard breaks, and offers the highest "continued chain revolver frame advantage". Anyway, an opponent can just delay his wakeup. j.4D then either whiffs, or hits them with a blackbeat (instead of a reset), so its useless. Way too easy to escape. If we can somehow get d.6C on the wakeup ... Also, j.d cancel d.6C seems a tad too slow. Hakumen can 2D out of it on emergency roll. Maybe I need to sacrifice the damage and instead go for a low damage corner setup. I mean, (blah) d.6B -> d.6C still works in the corner if the opponent is low enough as a tech trap, and I'm pretty sure d.5B -> d.6C can be made to work as well in the corner. Furthermore, there are all of Mizzet's standing combos that can be explored... potentially a moderate-damage standing or crouching combo into reset d.6C. Some sort of ground tech seems necessary if I want to get the pressure that I imagine however... (ie: something that beats even Hakumen's 6D/2D. Leaving only Reversals as a counter option) Standing / crouching resets into clean d.6D and d.6B can also be explored. Ideally though, I'm aiming for guard crush resets: even if they block d.6C... they'll be losing their primers. So I'm not giving up on this concept, but I'm giving up on 4k+ damage 632146D combo ender into some sort of d.6C wakeup. ---------- Its somewhat unfortunate: even if I do figure this out, it won't help the Tager Matchup at all. And it will only really help vs Staffless Litchi...

Yeah, I forgot the 236d > 632146d part. Overall, I WANT to find something, I've noted a lot of flaws about this "setup", which is why I'm discussing it. In the original post: Even worse, if the opponent waits for the blackbeat, he can forward air tech and escape the corner. Thats the problem with 4D -> 6C, they blackbeat, then forward air tech after 6C. Slowing down with j.D -> 6C will reset (no blackbeat, its a new combo), but it has the flaws that you just noted. IE: if they emergency wakeup, they can recover before 6C lands. However, at least in my experiments, if you turn off "emergency roll", j.D -> 6C comes out at the right time, a meaty wakeup as expected. So... j.D -> 6C is the "blackbeat punish". 4D -> 6C is the typical punish, but even that has its flaws. So its a "discussion starter", not really a recommended option yet. I forgot to test j.D cancel -> 6C last night. I'll do it after work. I guess I should also test j.4D whiff -> 6C lol. --------- Well, the cool thing about Noel's combos is that they really carries you into the corner and builds up a lot of heat. If we can figure out a true setup after corner 632146D, we'd be gold. You really only need one reset from anywhere to push your opponent into the corner. The safe way of doing this is (Drive) 6C -> 5B. Even on instant-block, it forces the opponent to block both attacks, and then 5B pushes them away. 5B flows well into another chain revolver if you want to keep going. No mixup, but you've broken one guard primer, so its better than nothing. And of course, you can always just go 6B -> 623D -> Rapid. Noel probably will have the heat to do this, sooooo much heat gain, safe and it breaks another primer. 50 heat for a primer is kinda weak though :-(

I've begun to experiment with (Drive) 6C setups. In particular, it is possible to space (Drive) 6C on Jin's wakeup such that 623C will whiff on Noel. And of course, when done correctly, it will beat Tager's 360A, Hazama's 214DB... I'm pretty sure it beats Hakumen's 2D / 6D, but I'll keep testing it. 0-frame reversals such as Litchi's 623D, Ragna's 623C, Jin's 623D (and if you space it wrong, 623C) , and most character's super-reversals will of course beat it. 46 active frames is the very definition of meaty. So many active frames, that you can simultaniously cover quick-rise, neutral tech and both rolls. But.. that still doesn't really help you vs Reversals, outside of Jin's 623C which can whiff on a properly spaced (Drive) 6C. Nevertheless, I think it has potential, so here's my current work: 2B -> 6A -> 6C -> j.D -> (Drive) 6B -> Emergency Roll Trap (Drive) 6C -> hit/block confirm This seems to be the most applicable thing I've found, especially vs a bursted opponent. 6B -> 6A prorates like crazy, so this combo wouldn't have done much damage anyway. By placing a tech trap after (Drive) 6B, you not only provide a reset opportunity, but you can also go for a guard break. Against Bursted Hazama, Taokaka, or Noel, hitting them with (Drive) 6C -> (Drive) 6B -> 623D will break them, or at least greatly damage their barrier. The (Drive) 6C -> 6B is free in some situations. Its a 4-frame trap vs instant-guarding opponents. Heatless Hazama / Taokaka / Noel can't reversal out of this, and Staffless Litchi can't get out of it either. Drive 6D is approximately 8-frames vs instant guarding opponents, but 3-frames on normal block. So 6D can lose to jabs and grabs if your opponent instant-blocks... but it may still be worth the mixup opportunity after you've trained your opponent to block high. If your opponent sucessfully blocks (Drive) 6B or (Drive) 6D, you can force your opponent to block the 623D, thus breaking another primer. I suggest 236D or 236A/B if you want to end the Drive Chain safer. (Corner launch) -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 6B -> 5B -> 5C -> 632146D -> (whiff) 4D -> 6C (If you predict emergency roll) (Corner launch) -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 6B -> 5B -> 5C -> 632146D -> (whiff) j.D -> 6C (If you predict a normal wakeup) This is a very typical situation for Noel, 632146D is a typical corner combo finisher, and it seems to give Noel a good amount of time. If your opponent plans for a normal wakeup (quick rise, neutral tech, forward / backward roll), the bottom option will either start a reset (into another corner combo, probably ending with 632146D again) or if the opponent neutral-tech + blocks, you enter the 6C trap I described earlier. Against forward / backward roll and quick-rise, you'll start a combo. Only Neutral Tech + block and Neutral Tech + reversal will get out of this safely. (Super) -> j.D -> 6C should be slow enough that 6C on a down opponent will be a real reset, if they hope for a "blackbeat + escape". (Super) -> 4D -> 6C is not a "solid" link on a emergency rolling opponent. At very least, Hakumen can escape by mashing 2D. I estimate ~5 or ~6 frame hole on the wakeup here (Hakumen's 5D gets counter-hit). Even worse, if the opponent waits for the blackbeat, he can forward air tech and escape the corner (because 4D -> 6C is a bit faster than j.D -> 6C). 4D -> 6C spaces you perfectly vs Jin's 623C, so vs Heatless Jin, its a very good option if you predict an emergency roll. j.236236D in the corner -> 66 -> 96 -> j.D cancel -> 6C This is what kick-started this experiment I'm doing. I don't expect it to be useful in actual combat. The 66 is for spacing, and the 96 instant-air dash and j.D cancel must be accomplished blind. The d.6C will start comming out as they fall after the j.236236D. Meh, if someone can figure out a use of this setup, I'd be impressed. ------------- Obviously, wakeup reversals beat these sorts of Oki strategies. In addition, Tager's Sledge is immune to (Drive) 6C on the first frame, so he can use wakeup 236B to punish you pretty hard. Nevertheless, the idea of Guardbreak and Corner lockdown appeals to me. Nothing like Litchi's, but we gotta work with what we got.

I confirmed this last night in training mode btw: the 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A string punishes those who mash back-jump, at least the 5B / 6A part. I tested it for Noel vs Noel (Noel has a 4 frame jump in CT), you'll hit your opponent while they're in the jumping animation. You can't block while jumping. Its a tiny 3 to 6 frame hole (in CT), but 5B and 6A offer enough blockstun and come out fast enough to punish "up-back" mashers. Then ( (Drive) 5B) -> 6A -> 6C -> etc. etc. for a simple little combo. Of course, they can escape if they instant-block... however... if they're instant-blocking, they're probably mashing back. Back Mashers will get hit by 5B when they backdash, but I can't think of any midscreen followups. Edit: I'll test again tonight. It seems as if 5B -> 6A shouldn't punish Arakune and Litchi, assuming that their jump speeds are the same as in CT (3-frames of jump startup). I should also test vs Hazama, Tsubaki, and Mu12. 5B vs Backdash (ie: typically airborne) has the obvious combo in the corner. So really, this basic string covers a good amount of options. Most opponents can't mash back jump, backdashing is a bad idea vs 5B. That only really leaves reversals as the only good option, but as noted before, opponents don't always have reversals. (and if they do, this string becomes much less safe)

The easy answer is that... d.6C will link to d.6B on normal block, and is a 3-frame hole on instant-block. It is a 3-frame hole to 6D... 8 frames on instant-block. So d.6B will beat out grabs and jabs, while the 6D low is less safe (d.6C is one of those really really easy attacks to instant block...) EDIT: I had a very wrong paragraph here. Removed. As for getting d.6C out... it is very meaty, and it is also slow. There may be reset opportunities avaliable for it. That would be the easiest way to get it. But because it hits mid, it doesn't seem too useful for that. Another possibility is somehow getting j.D canceled d.6C on a waking up opponent. In Training Mode, I have been able to do j.236236D on a jumping opponent in the corner. Then, when landing, do a 66 -> Instant Air Dash -> j.d cancel d.6C. It beats all rolls except emergency roll. IE: They are forced to be blocking on neutral wakeup. Outside the corner, I'd expect backwards roll to be safe, but you're still forcing your opponent to wakeup reversal or wakeup+block the d.6C. If they have 2 primers left, goodbye (d.6C -> 623D == bye bye two primers). Hopefully, someone else will find a more useful setup. But thats what I got for now. I haven't experimented myself. But here's my idea at least. A relatively safe offensive string (such as 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B) is for testing the waters. You want to figure out what your opponents instincts are. Is he blocking low? Is he blocking high? Is he mashing backdash? If he's blocking low the whole time, next time you get into 5D, start throwing in d.6B. If he's blocking high, then throw in the occasional 6D. If he's mashing, stay safe, get your little combo out of 5D -> 5B -> etc. etc. until you train your opponent to stop mashing. This is perhaps the best use of chain revolver at the moment. I agree with you. If you screw up and get into Drive against a good opponent, try to finishs safely. Note, d.5B is technically less safe than 236D (-13 frames on 236D, and -17 frames on d.5B). However, most opponents won't run in while you are in chain revolver mode... thats the stupidest move possible. So based on the opponents I have faced... d.5B is the safest way to finish, even if it is technically more punishable. I am pretty sure that if the first hit of 236D is even Instant blocked, then the opponent is always forced to block the 2nd hit. At least, my training mode experience seems to demonstrate this.

Aginor, I don't think you are reading my posts. I never claimed that you can react to Jayoku. I never claimed that Chain Revolver spam is good vs Tager. I claimed that its "not totally free", and being psychic will beat Jayoku. Your post literally added nothing to this conversation except wrong. Lambda 3C to beat Noel's new Drive? Please tell me where I can find the magical 11 frame hole in Noel's new drives, even with Instant-block. My first post already put the "bread and butter" to be 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A, which has no hole larger than 4 frames on normal block (9 frames instant block). Lack of Staffless Litchi? Block 623C, 5C Counter -> 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> blah blah into Staffless Litchi Oki. If she doesn't want to use that 623D, then she's playing as if she's staffless. 5D -> 6D beats Bangs who mash 2D. I dunno Aginor. I see the star, so you're probably a mod or something. However, the Dustloop "culture" I know is that you shut the fuck up when you don't know what you're talking about so that the adults can talk. My arguments are very specific, and I'm trying to craft my words so that anyone who does understand IB -> reversal (which is literally the oldest strategy in the book) can recognize the weakness quickly. I know I'm pretty new to CS, but I can tell your argument stinks. I'm asking for the opinion of the veteran Noels of this board to criticize me with VALID arguments. That is afterall, what a discussion should be.

I never claimed this to be an invincible strategy. On the contrary, I created this thread to discuss this strategy and refine it. Nevertheless, even if we assume 5D is instant blocked 100% of the time, Noel is not at a complete loss even if she's dedicated herself to 5A. Its all character-specific strategy. Here's a rundown. 1. Taokaka -- This is safe under 50% heat. She only has a reversal super, no free way to get out of frame traps. 2. Carl -- Same problem as Lambda. Super-freeze buffer 214D on Carl's Cantata and you're safe. He can escape pressure with his command dash, but that can be baited. 3. Staffless Litchi -- Literally nothing she can do against close-range frame traps aside from backdash, which can be baited. 4. Hazama -- Requires 50% heat to reversal super. Safe under 50%. Psychic 214D will allow you to do a heatless wall bounce combo, but is obviously risky. 5. Bang -- Daifunka also has a very large startup after the super-freeze. Mash 214D on reaction, you'll be safe. If your opponent is mashing guard points, you probably can punish him. (214A or 6D after your 5D) 6. IB 720 On Tager can be baited with 5D -> 2D. You'll be airborne and then counter-hit Tager. Disadvantage to Noel, but its not as "free" as it looks. Some characters have no response to this pressure, and some characters only have a response with Heat. If you pay attention to the game, some "obvious" responses can be reacted to 100% of the time. Against characters with reversals, of course this is going to be less effective. But all frame traps are less effective against characters with 1-frame reversals. Thats nothing new here. On the other hand, we still have a large part of the cast where this sort of pressure can remain safe, because some characters have really crappy reversals.

Simple. Because in CS, there is a simple solution to DP after 5D. Just let chain revolver finish after 5D. Noel takes a step back after hitting the opponent. Jin's 623C whiffs from this range, Ragna's can whiff if you properly space it. Litchi's can whiff if properly spaced, but even if it hits, she won't be able to combo. I haven't tested Jin's 623D, but the range seems shorter in this game... (Drive) 6C -> whatever has always been a strange mindgame to me. Against opponents who mash DP, I enjoy striking them with 214D. They tend to be easy to catch because they are glowing white hot during my (Drive) 6C. Now with the special counter-hit state, there may be a decent combo off of rapid. Another important tidbit is that (Drive) 6C can punish players who mash grab now, even if they instant-block. Anyway, from there, just 3C -> Haida Loop or whatever, except against Litchi, >_<. But now she's staffless, so shes a bit more approachable. ----------------- Its not safe, its still punishable, and a strategy as simple as "wait for the (Drive) 5A and then inferno-divider" is a relatively safe way to beat it. (after all, 5D -> 5B etc. etc. are all mids, and its not like they take any primers or anything). Nonetheless, its a new, subtle trick that Noel has up her sleeve. In fact, I was playing an opponent this weekend who was wondering why Inferno Divider wasn't comming out in my Chain Revolver strings. 5A when your opponent wants to Inferno Divider, and then (Drive) 5B 6A 6C etc. etc. into a nice combo. I haven't really figured out a strategy yet against ID mashers.

Do this in training mode: set an enemy Noel to 5D -> 5A. Now, block the 5D, and try to do anything between 5D and 5A. Notice, you are forced to block the 5A if you blocked the 5D. You cannot input a dragon punch, you cannot input a reveral super, you cannot get counter-hit, you cannot pass go. DO not collect $200. The blocking is forced between the two attacks. Furthermore, 5A is very very fast, if your opponent was timing a reversal after 5D, it simply wouldn't come out. The proper timing of a reversal would be after the 5A, and not after the 5D, but 5A is so quick that I doubt it is within human capacity to time a "complex" reveral for both the end of 5D AND a 5A. And even if it was, my opponent still has to deal with the mixup possibilities. Of course, my opponents always surprise me with their skill. So maybe after a few months, this will be very weak... but its something I'd like to discuss the possibility of.