dragontamer

Understood. Its just that unlike a gatling, which cancels during the active frames... chain revolver attacks cancel sometime after the active frames. I guess I should have clarified at the beginning. You describe the situation exactly, its the number of frames your opponent is in blockstun before the next chain-revolver hits. Another thing, if you have a 1-frame hole, you will lose to Inferno Divider. And remember, with the 5 frame buffer, all 1-frame holes are actually 5-frame holes against a skilled opponent. (who uses the buffering system to their advantage).

Simple: First, I spent a few hours in training mode today estimating the frame advantages of every chain revolver hit. Right there at the top. The data didn't exist before. I don't guarantee accuracy, but I estimated the frames to the best of my ability. I tested the "important" bits, such as (Drive) 6C -> 5B being safe on instant block using the "Block first hit only" feature of training mode, as well as a recorded move. Archling sent me some frame data that sped up the tests I did... but ultimately, the data above is the result of my own work. I understand buffering. Try my claims in training mode, and try mashing dragon punches in training mode. There are no "first available" frames in the links I mentioned. This means that Chain Revolver now has TRUE pressure strings available to it, unlike in CT. Woops, d.5A has ~16 frames of blockstun. Its +8 frames on block, but 16 frames of hitstun. Sorry, it shifts the timing by +16 frames... I did a string with a recorded dummy. I then mashed various known attacks (such as Ragna's 5A) until I found the attack that tied the attack string. When a double-counter-hit occurred, I repeated the test with an attack 1 frame slower, and 1 frame faster to make sure that the respective attacks won over. I used archling's frame data to figure out the startup frames of the various chain revolver attacks. From that, I can calculate the +Frames for all chain revolvers. Of course, this is still subject to human error, so please test it yourself. Think of this as a starting point, and not "the truth". More like an estimate of the truth.

I am still an extremely scrubby CS Noel still... but I want to start a discussion on this. Holy crap, chain revolver has gotten a lot better. I'd like to discuss the possibility of true "Chain Revolver Pressure". Before you laugh me off the stage, hear me out. First, I spent a few hours in training mode today estimating the frame advantages of every chain revolver hit. The results are surprising... (All the following are Chain Revolver Drives) 6C +23 Frames !! (at the "sweetpoint") j.4D +16 Frames 6A +15 Frames 5B +15 Frames 6B +13 Frames 5D / Followup 5D +13 Frames 4D / Followup 4D +12Frames 6D / Followup 6D +11 Frames 5C +10 Frames 5A +8 Frames 2D +6 Frames (Drive) 6C -> 5B is a seamless, unbreakable blockstring, much like CT 5A spam. Even if the opponent instant blocks, he can't do anything between (Drive) 6C -> 5B. Under a more typical regular block, 5D -> 5A, 6B -> 5A, 6A -> 5A, j.4D->5A, and 6C->5A are also seamless blockstrings. (6C -> 5A links even on instant-block). This means that if your opponent blocks 5D, 6B, or 6A... you can use 5A to screw up the timing of his reversal. With 13 frames and almost no hitstop, 5A screws with your chain-revolver timing enough to make reversal much harder to do. Hakumen still has a 1-frame 1-button counter, but most characters require say... 623C or a more complicated string (720 or 236236) to pull off a reversal. Literally, 5A shifts the timing of your opponents reversal by 8 frames. Furthermore, compared to CT, there are some reasonably safe strings that seem to lead to easy damage. Like this one: 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A -> 236B Now, pretend that the 5D actually lands on the opponent's block, 5D -> 5B is a 4-frame hole, 5B -> 6A is a 3-frame hole, and 6A -> 5B is a 2-frame hole. Any of those holes can be "patched" with 5A to shift the correct timing of your opponent's reversal. As far as damage, (Drive) 5B -> 6A -> 6C -> (delay) -> 623D -> 66C -> j.D -> etc. etc. deals a good amount of damage IIRC. (~3k)... probably more if I knew of Noel's better combos. >_< Anyway, these are my thoughts on Chain Revolver pressure. Anyone have experience they'd like to contribute?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORCBqf51SWs WTF? This Noel survives THREE of Hima's Fever modes, and wins both fucking rounds. I want to see this guy in SBO. Maybe we all should learn to mash that D button like he does...

Sakkaishi used j.4D twice... and both times managed to land a combo and/or pressure which led to serious damage. Also, Shakkaishi at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUgVySWnems#t=1m1 uses (blah blah) -> (airborne Litchi) -> 4D -> 236D -> 6C -> 22B 22BC, so 236D -> 6C still combos under certain conditions. Other interesting thing was the (Drive) 5A -> 6D reset here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUgVySWnems#t=2m10s My biggest hope for Noel right now are resets during chain-revolver combos. CT Rachel's resets scared the shit out of me whenever I played Alzarath... and of course, Carl's resets piss me off. --------- Can someone find me this mysterious Kouya?? I didn't see anything on Youtube with that name. I'd like to see him play :-p

I'll be there >_< But for the animes. I'll probably stop by the video game section to play a few rounds, but I don't know CS and I suck at GG.

Interesting trick. I'll practice this from now on. 2B takes priority over 6B?

You press BC within 2 frames after 5D. So almost at the same time. It will look like a normal grab, except Noel's "drive spam aura" will be around her right at the start of it. Personally, I found that 4DBC is more obvious in CT. The 4D motion seems to have a larger aura. Same timing, but its easier to see. Again, this technique is completely useless in CT, because Noel doesn't move during the startup of 5D (or 4D, or 2D, or 6D)

You can kara-cancel 5D in CT. I tested it with both 5DBC and 225DC. However, 5D doesn't move forward on startup, so its completely useless in CT. Noel gets the green trail thingies briefly right before she throws or 22Cs if you do it right. I was unable to get Kara-canceling to work with the drive follow ups (instead of doing a throw, she'd always do (Drive) 5B). I doubt it'd change in CS... especially because this mechanic does exist in CT. Unless there is some sort of weird timing that needs to be done... I'd have to say doing this during a drive followup isn't going to be possible. On the other hand, I'm interested in seeing if this 5D kara improves or simplifies Noel's Haida Loop. Can't really test that in CT... and it'd depend on if 5D moves you further than a simple dash in the same period of time. Another possibility is using 5D BC to improve Noel's throw range at the cost of ~2 frames of startup.

Can someone explain to me what the hell is going on here? I can very clearly hear Noel's Drive, and whenever I hear it, Noel shifts forward half a step. Is she canceling the startup of her 5D or 6D into 22C ? Or is this unlimited Noel? I just want to know what this mechanic is. I do believe I read 22NDC on there... but that doesn't really describe to me what is actually going on. (plus, I can't read them Japanese comments...) EDIT: Look at the difference between Red Beat and this. Here's the link that fast forwards to the 9k 150% heat combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb38Z2g2f48#t=7m50s 1. The combo in the new video uses only 50% heat. Granted, its a fatal counter in the corner, but still, that makes that combo slightly more usable. 2. Noel dashes back in for the 22C in Red Beat. In the video, she uses some sort of 5D cancel to control her spacing. This doesn't look like anything OMFG awesome, just that Noel's D attacks can be kara-canceled. But Noel has weak specials... I can't see this being too useful for anything other than Haida looping... and it doesn't seem to move Noel forward enough to make a difference in mid-screen Haida loops. On the other hand... 22B 22 5D BBC dash 22 5D BBC could net more damage?? On the other hand, if (raw) 5D can be kara-canceled... can we kara-cancel (Drive) 5D into a throw??? Throw-whiff would make Noel's Drive SOOOO much safer, and open up a hell of a lot more combos. Someone needs to investigate this :-p (Of course, I'm pulling things out of my ass, but someone test it. I don't have BB:CS yet)

Thats really good on block. Thats something like +15 frames if you continue into chain-revolver, and invincibility through your attack. (what kind? Is it full invincibility or just upper-body?) If its full-invincibility... it means they can't mash you out of it if the move starts (kinda like Jin's 623B) At least, if things are similar to CT... +15 frames is more than enough to hit (Drive) 5A and then react to a reversal with (Drive) 214D. (if 5A whiffs, smack 214D to avoid the incomming reversal. On hit, hitconfirm into a combo. On block, attempt to safely exit chain-revolver asap). So the trick is forcing your opponents to block a slow-ass move that they can react to (kinda like Drive 6C ). 15 startup after landing... thats really slow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfZkLl4o3ww#t=2m18s The hitbox doesn't look too strange... well, I'll test it when I get my copy of CS...

Wait, what? Its invincible through the active frames? 7-26 invincibility is larger than most anti-airs... 19 frames of invincibility? But somehow, I don't think that frame data is accurate. Because Noel still has to fall to the ground before she can hit...? So is it fall + 15F startup? Otherwise, I really like the look of that frame data. (aside from the only safe "out" is chain-revolver "pressure"). Of course, it says nothing about the crappy hitbox but yeah... something is off. The frame data you gave makes it sound very good to me (so... clearly it must be wrong...) BTW: where did you get the frame data? And what level is it, and when can you start the next chain revolver attack? Or hell, just give me the frame data... in english? :-p

What would you say about baiting AAs with j.4D ?? Most AAs are terrible on whiff... Ragna's 6A will take 24 frames to recover on whiff (18 recover, 6 active), and Rachel's 6A will take 25. Its a possible fatal, right?? Is it something that can be explored, or do you think its too gimmicky?

Just noting: The video wasn't for you. I assume that the other readers however don't know starcraft at the same level as you or me, and probably would be surprised that a "strategy" game has such a high execution requirement. And my point was not to demonstrate proper starcraft strategy, but instead demonstrate how twitch skills can dominate strategy. Even in starcraft, straight up practice and execution are fundamental to getting better. Well, if this is your final point, I can't really disagree with you there, at least for BB:CT (I haven't played BB:CS). The lower execution barrier however is seen as an advantage from my eyes... because at least at the lower levels, it becomes significantly easier to focus on strategy instead of execution. IMO, good games are played at the strategy level, and not at the execution level. There's a certain level of execution you have to get to in Starcraft before you even stand a chance against a typical D rank ICCUP player... and that execution barrier is massive. (I like your 26 vs 14 for Starcraft execution vs BlazBlue execution). Until then, strategy doesn't matter, because your opponent will simply beat you out on raw APM alone. (Much like going into a BB game without knowing any combos)

Interesting you bring up starcraft, where actions-per-minute are one of the strongest indications that separate newbies from pros. Who gives a damn about strategy when you can control 2 different groups of stacked mutalisks and take out turrets / marines / medics with them? Who gives a damn about strategy when you've got Slayer-Boxer's M&M Skill, and have 12 marines and 4 medics take out 3 lurkers at a chokepoint, a few sunken colonies, 2 groups of Zerglings, 2 more lurkers, and a ton of drones while building up a backup army and teching to Science Vessels? Where's the "strategy" in using your scouting probe / scv / drone to prevent your opponent's 2nd Hatchery? Where is the strategy in this video? Hint, it has about 3x more apm than this beginner-level version. </exaggeration> I know there is strategy in starcraft, but there is a huge emphasis on twitch control, perhaps even at the same level as fighting games (which is why pros refuse to play online: too laggy. They play only on low-latency LAN). Training your reactions in Starcraft, and perfecting the timing of your builds and attacks is important. Losing a single mutalisk due to poor timing vs a Turret can mean a completely wasted Muta-Harassment attempt. On the other hand, mastering the twitch control to land two coordinated strikes from ten stacked +1 Mutas will take out a turret before it hits you twice: this is a "twitch skill" that almost completely overrides strategy. It essentially allows a group of 10+ mutalisks to take out a turret before it even has a chance to shoot at you. Reacting to Psi-storms, and regrouping 4 groups of Zerglings / mutas to avoid the Psi Storm? Thats not strategy, thats straight up reaction: a reaction that will save you thousands of minerals and gas, and a huge chunk of your army. Jeez man, Starcraft Pros practice 14-hours a day to master this twitch crap. And the basic strategy behind Starcraft is simple: * Conservative Builds beat Rushes * Rushes beat early expansion * Early Expansion beat Conservative Builds Beyond that, its timing and practice. Its not like you are going to pull off a sucessful vulture / muta harassment using strategy alone. Its not like strategy alone makes the Mines / Tanks / Turrets setup vs Protoss so powerful... or the suicide Zealot-drop counter-strategy possible. All of these setups take raw twitch skill to execute. Anyway, I find it strange that you mention Starcraft, where APM is so important... Are you using the right hand stance? Can you spam the keyboard like a pro? ---------- Going back to strategy in fighting games... I often give up a (non-oki) combo to get out of the corner. Its just too damn dangerous to sit around in the corner, in any fighting game. There's your high ground: pinning your opponent in the corner, and preventing him from moving forward. Try it out sometime.

"Niisan" means brother in Japanese. (two i's) "Nissan" (two ss) is the car company.

Johnny doesn't block with a cigar puff, thus Slayer is more badass. Granted, that line makes more sense for Johnny :-)

An important thing to note about strike/strike mixup is that a complex reversal (such as a dragon punch or reversal super) requires the opponent to stop blocking for a few (real) frames. Granted, they can still perform the dragonpunch on the hitstop (ie: while time is paused, so they're not actually "letting go" of block as far as the game is concerned), but if they can't figure out your rhythm, its unlikely that they'll buffer it correctly, allowing you to land a hit. This doesn't apply as much as say... Bang's super, because he's blocking when he's executing the super (2363214C), or Hakumen's Counters, because his counters are extremely simple. (Just 6D) Another thing to keep in mind is that complex reversals may require the opponent to stop blocking low. Thus, many opponents who buffer reversals during BlazBlue's "autoblock" period are still vulnerable to lows.

Or more specifically: when you have to time _releasing_ the button to perform certain combos. Taokaka's C attacks are all on the negative edge for example.

It helps that the Noels who visit the Noel forum are real pro. Lol.

Yeah, I've begun to notice that. Strange Hitboxes (My foot is in your face, you should be dead. I don't care if you're "technically crouching" and its a high attack...) and frame disadvantage on hit makes me wtf. Its definitely a very strange game to me at the moment. I'm sure there is legit pressure strings and all that, but I can't seem to find a complete official frame data on T6. I'm using T5 frame charts at the moment, just to get the idea of things.

I don't plan to "Main" this game, but I do want to learn enough of it so that my eyes know what the fuck is going on. I plan to use Marshall Law. First things first: How do you block in this game? >_< I understand that letting go of the control pad automatically blocks, but is there a way to "force" block while the opponent is attacking you? It feels like my hitstun is just "too long" when I'm playing this game... (I'm a total newbie... )

I'd learn how to play them so that you learn how things happen. IE: you learn that reversal DPs require a bit of buffering skill as you play with Ragna. But Noel doesn't have any attack aside from 236236D that can be done as a reversal. Application? I've learned to throw more lows out and spam 5A more intelligently.

I used this: http://s1.zetaboards.com/blazblue/pages/02#dash And basic physics to get the following Result: After 13 frames, Noel is faster than Bang, and after 33 frames, she's faster than Nu. Unfortunately, Noel caps out in 22 frames, so she's slower than Nu, and only faster than Bang for between 13-frames and 22 frames. The period of which Noel has "covered more distance" than Bang is even smaller. Using the "distance covered" equation (d0 + v0*t + a0/2 * t^2), it appears that Noel only "covers more ground" after 25 frames of running. (Meaning both Nu and Bang always cover more ground than Noel) Long story short: I'm wrong, but Noel is still DAMN fast :-p EDIT: lol: Tager is fastest at walking backwards. Who knew? Cause she whiffed a sword, is taking Oki pressure, decided to act-pulsar crossup, etc. etc.