dragontamer

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Noel one of the better matchups vs Nu13? I know Nu has an advantage on everyone except like, Jin and Bang, but Noel players can't really complain about Nu13. We've got the fastest ground running speed. Nu's best normals are also from crouch (2C and 3C), putting Nu at a dangerous position vs Noel. Its not like Tager / Haks / Arakune vs Nu, at least according to the matchup chart.

I was fixated on air-techs for some reason. Yeah, I forgot about ground rolls.

Both of the rolls are also an option if he's waiting for you. Backwards roll is less risky than forward roll. Use all wakeup options, not "equally", but in a manner that keeps your wakeup game unpredictable.

Just a side note, 5A is the same startup speed as 6C, so they can't tech out of 6C BC 5A. They'll tech after the 5A. How? If you are barrier blocking during a tech, then how is she hitting you?

Thanks. I'll go research Litchi's trap then. Here's why I'm confused: My understanding of it is that she just hits you with the staff (like a projectile meaty) while you tech. In the situation I described, If the opponent neutral techs, you hit them with a 6C meaty while they tech. Isn't that the same thing?

Bah, I had edits going up and down. >_< I'll just leave my post as it is now. Sorry about that.

I'm sorry I have only been playing fighting games seriously for a few months, and there is no centralized resource that defines "tech trap" anyway. As far as I can tell, people call Litchi's corner rape a "tech trap", even if it is blockable as they tech. The only unblockable one I can think of are meaty Bang's and Tager's command grabs. If I'm using the wrong terminology, sorry. There ain't a dictionary on this subject where I can learn this shit, at least on this site. You are welcome to lecture me on the "proper" meaning of Tech Trap if you wish, or maybe you can write the dictionary yourself.

No, you shouldn't forfeit 2k damage. Thats just stupid. I'm not saying you execute this tech trap after say, 5A 6A 6C... you should instead execute this tech trap after say... (Crouching Opponent) 5A 5A 5A 5B 5C 2C 3C 22C 6C, which will NOT lead to the chain revolver BNB (too many proration points racked up), you can 50/50 on the tech trap because the air combo is not going to do too much damage anyway, especially due to the proration from starting with 5A. If you can go for the damage, you should go for the damage, especially if it leads to knockdown. However, depending on how you started the combo, you sometimes can't follow through with a BNB, and the air combo simply won't add much damage at all. 6C is the weakest link in the chain. If you land 5D, chances are the whole chain revolver is going to land, leading to knockdown and extra damage. Nevetheless, I resign this point. Black Beats are risky, and are definitely not the main draw to a reset anyway. I will revise my argument to the following: It is a tradeoff between risk and reward. If the trap works, the opponent will take significantly more damage. 6C x4 -> Chain Revolver is about 3.5k and leads to knockdown. Lets have this as a comparison: * 2B 5B 5C 2C (one hit) 3C 22C 6C 5D 6B 5C 6B 5C 236D -- This is 2.2k Damage total. * 2B 5B 5C 2C (one hit) 3C 22C 6C BC 6C BC 5A (1.6k reset) 6C BC x4 Chain Revolver (3.8k damage) -- 5451 Damage total. So with only a risk of about 600 damage, you gain 3k+ damage. Here's another situation. Jin whiffs a 623C against you. He either doesn't have the heat for rapid cancel or something... so you... * 5C (CH) 5D 5C 6C 5C 6C 214A 2B 6C j.236C for 5.2k damage * 5C (CH) 5D 5C 6C 5C 6C 214A 2B 6C (4.9k dmg) (reset) 6C BC x4 Chain Revolver (3.8k damage) for a total of 8.7k damage heatless. Here, you risk 300 damage for 3.5k more damage and knockdown. Note: no need for the 5A in this example. Do remember: 6C is THE meatiest Normal that Noel has. It makes an ideal tech trap. And even if the opponent is barrier blocking in the air as he techs, 6C BC leaves you only at -4 frames, making it relatively safe. It certainly is not something you should do routinely: however, on select combo enders (especially, air combo enders, which gain knockdown upon reset), it becomes a very low risk for a very high reward. Or hell, how about this? 5A 6A 6C 5D (etc. etc.) 236D in the corner. 236D -> 6C -> 5A -> (reset) 6C 6C 6C 6C. You trade knockdown for a tech-trap in the corner. (although technically, I guess you can always (etc. etc.) 236D -> 6C j.236C for some damage. So... you risk whatever that would give you). Works on a large portion of the cast as well, and sets up the tech trap in the ideal corner. The 5A will help you beat neutral techs, while leaving the 5A out will let you easily beat backward and even forward techs in the corner if the opponent is low enough. ----------- The corner is definitely the best place for this. A backwards Tech can be air-grabed, or you can attempt the reset. Neutral techs still lose to the trap.

What is the point of a tech trap? For me, it is to keep the opponent honest. You need a way to prevent the opponent from simply mashing AAAAAAAA trying to recover at the earliest point in your combo, to prevent black beats. By providing a tech trap / reset during the 6C loop, you discourage your opponent from mashing out, making the black-beat combo during a 6C loop far easier to accomplish. At very least, it becomes a 50/50 mixup between mashing out during the 6C loop and waiting the combo out, hoping Noel doesn't go for the black beat combo.

BTW: There is a very simple tech trap from the 6C loop. 6C BC 6C BC 6C BC 5A -> (wait for reset) -> 6C BC x4 -> 5D -> BNB

3C is most practical. I like showing off with 5D counter-hit on the 632146C super-freeze.

No one is superhuman SKD: basic psychological facts will always apply. Its harder to react to a mixup than it is to react to consistency. Even if your opponent can react to quick rise, it is unlikely that he can react to a quick rise, neutral tech, and rolls correctly at the same time. And even if he can, it will take significantly more focus to do so. Knockdown puts you at a disadvantage, but always neutral techning will also put you at a greater disadvantage. Quick rise to surprise your opponent occasionally, force him to react to you, keep his Oki honest instead of braindead.

BTW: I dunno why I didn't think of this sooner: 2D (1) -> RC -> 3C. It combos on hit, it's a nasty mixup on block. Probably a good way to start off this Haida loop

BTW: good for you. Unfortunately, that combo is completely useless, and does less damage than >. Its a terrible block string, and a terrible combo. Please never do that combo ever again. Similarly, you'll do more damage with > > > > > and finally The generally makes combos weaker. Don't use it in combos unless its necessary.

*Insert Might Guy's "Genius of Hard Work" speech here* Some people just need more practice than other people. What comes naturally to some doesn't come naturally to others.

Note that in a battle, if you screw up during the loop, that means you just whiffed a 6C on an opponent. Expect to lose ~4k health to a counter-hit combo against a good player. All hope is not lost, but screwing up this loop can have huge repercussions :-(

I was a complete n00b in July, so I know the feeling. You just gotta practice, there's no secret. It is simple muscle memorization. I spent several hours over the course of ~3 days in practice mode up against the corner getting the timing of the 6C BC loop. When I played against people, I just used the air combo instead of her BNB Drive. After three days, I could pull it off in the corner consistently. I then practiced it on Arakune mid-screen (which requires 6C BC 66C, so that you dash in on the 2nd one), and I still practice that every now and then to make sure I don't lose it. So in essence: just practice. Its easier in the corner vs Tager, so start there, but be sure to learn how to do it mid-screen vs Arakune and Carl.

I have updated the guide, changing its structure completely. I've also discovered some better corner loops off of 5C counter-hit in the process :-) I'll post the combo information in the General Noel thread. See the 2D and 5D sections for the 5C counter-hit options in the corner.

Neutral tech at the same time as his 5B. If you time it right, you'll end with a frame advantage. If he's waiting for you to neutral tech, then you can just quick rise. Once I've learned how to switch up between quick-rise and neutral tech, my wakeup has gotten a lot better.

In the corner, I'm getting: 2D -> 28D -> (wait) 6C -> 5D -> 236D -> 6C -> 5D -> 5B -> 6B -> 5C -> dropped :-( Its like 4.2k at that point. The first 6C has to be very delayed, Litchi needs to be as close to the ground as possible.

Does that mean that Throws are no longer prorated if you pick them up while they are tech rolling? Or did ASW just want to nurf throws?

Now that you mention it... maybe it was 5C CH (which obviously is a bad idea vs Sledge). I'll test it out later... I don't remember the gatling, but if they did gatling, it'd link to 3C on CH.

On paper, 6C sounds like a better option in this situation. 6C CH leads straight into 3C, and it beats both A Sledge and B Sledge. Both lose to 360A, although depending on the situation, 6C may not have enough range to counter Tager.

Literally react to the sledge, don't predict it. You want to 5D well after he's started his sledge.

Literally impossible. j.D is meatier than 720C's entire invincibility. Not that j.D is a good option (it seems like yall agree with me on that one... doesn't seem to be a good option vs Tager) but need to give credit where credit is due. j.D is meaty as hell. Don't forget the most important one: Block. If Tager blocks that Spring Raid you're dead. On the other hand, running up just outside of 5B range and using 5B is a great approach in my experience. Safe on block, and you're outside of 360A/720C range and both of you will whiff on each other in the worst case. In the best case, 5B counter-hit leads to 3C for massive damage. Just watch that magnetism, definitely not safe when you're magnetized.