dragontamer

The only starter I trust is 5C or 2C -> 5D -> (stuffs) Stuffs because, its Chain Revolver, you've got 13 choices of attacks depending on what you need at every single point. 5D -> 6C is funny to eat up their guard libra / barrier, and frame traps to 5B (4 frame), and hitconfirms into 214A, but 5D -> 6C is unsafe. (13 frame hole). 5D -> 5B is the "standard" frame trap I use, which is only a 7 frame hole. (don't do it in grab range, and you're fine, or use 5D -> 2D to punish grab whiffs). If I'm just out to eat Guard Libra and I'm trying to do it safely, I do 5D -> 5B -> 5C -> 5B -> 5C -> 236D. The 5B -> 5C is only outranged and slower than Nu's 3C, but the 5B has no hitstop, making the timing of that a little strict. Plus, if you predict a 3C, you can just 2D her. Anyway, 9000+ Guard Libra damage off of that. The only problem is that it leaves you at mid screen vs Nu. If her barrier / guard libra is low, it almost certainly will guard crush though.

Assuming you can continue the chain revolver... (Drive) 5B has +15 frames on block. (Drive) 5A starts up in 22 Frames, and (Drive) 6B starts up in 21 Frames. We're looking at a hole of 7 or 6 frames, faster than 2C's startup. If you're really cautious, you can 236D for a 5 frame hole. (Drive) 5C has +13 frames, so its almost as good, but you can 5B after a 5C, and 5B has 17 startup frames, leaving a hole of only 4 frames. (Drive) 5D has +12 frames, leaving a hole of 5 frames. 5B is also meatier than Nu's backdash, so she can't backdash or counter-attack. Long-Range Chain Revolver Spam has frame-traps like woah, and they're faster than anything that v-13 can do. Even if she does 632146D, you have enough time to finish the 5B and do 214D to get invincibility frames vs that super. And you should be out-ranging her 5A and 5B at that range.

Or, just hang around 5B distance away from Tager. 5B is faster than almost all of Tager's moves, and outranges his grabs.

SKD: you know what beats Nu's CA? Long Range Chain Revolver Spam (5C, 5B and 5D). No joke. You out range her crappy Kick and then counter her :-)

SKD is sad because he can't land 2D 28D -> 66C without the help of a corner or RC :-p SKD's point is this: 2D 6B 6A 28D makes the 66C a bit easier to land. It may lose a bit of damage due to the 6A (and maybe the 6A + 5A if you're too far), but it makes the 66C more consistent and doesn't require corner or RC. Although, the point is rather tangential to the current thread, and doesn't really contribute much to the argument, and we all know what you were talking about anyway. EDIT: Its somewhat moot depending on your use of 2D, because 6B, (Drive) 5A and (Drive) 6A only combo from 2D on a crouching opponent (at least, in my tests). If you use 2D as a "reversal" attack because of its 1-frame low invulnerability, or as a meaty attack as oki, 28D is really your only option for a combo. (well, 2D -> 5B RC 6A 6C is another "option" but I'm pretty sure it does less damage, but the 5B is safer on block because it pushes the opponent away and has frame traps if you continue the chain-revolver... unlike 28D) More on this thread though... IMO, the rock-paper scissors is in the double-jump, IAD, and ground dash approach. Landing from a jump has the potential for a surprise 214D to score a knockdown on Nu (RC combo doesn't work on her), which should be good enough. Once you're in, its a mistake to let Nu up outside of maybe a Counter-Assault. (Even if she bursts, you should be able to burst predict, block, then punish). Nu has no wakeup options outside of backdash and supers (and the super with invincibility takes like, 24 frames to come out, more than enough time to recover from even a 6B and then block, or a whiffed 5A and then block, esp because there is 13 frames after the super-freeze where you can just hold barrier-block).

There is only one correct tech vs Nu: Neutral Tech into block. They can't hit you with a meaty, a sword, nothing. The worst they can do to you is mixup between 3C (beaten by wakeup 2D), Throw (also kinda beaten by 2D), and TK Overhead. (Forgot the motion for that). In all cases, blocking after a neutral tech, and reacting appropriately can cover you. Even if you don't react well, just watch for the throw tech and block low. Volia, you killed 2 of their options right there and you've covered all of the long-distance ones (that overhead sword is slow as hell)

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=480437&postcount=2980 If Tofu Warrior owns an arcade (or knows someone who owns an arcade) that is getting BB:CS, that might be a legit source. Ultimately, we'll know in ~1 month :-) Its not like we're gonna get the XBox360 / PS3 release for another year anyway.

2D is invincible on frame 1 to a huge number of Carl's pokes. On the ground punch pressure loop, You can safely 2D out of the hit right before Ada's punch. 2D -> 6A -> 28D -> 6C -> have fun.

If you are outside the range of an "immediate" hit from his super, you can super-flash buffer 5D for the counter-hit into 5D (CH) -> 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> etc. etc.

Specifically, at 2:55, Noel starts a chain revolver. The chain revolver start is the current (Drive) 5C, which explains why it doesn't combo into (Drive) 6C. Old 5D motion is clearly new 5C, ex Old 5C is some drive attack. (Its listed somewhere) Old (Drive) 5C is new 5D. Old (Drive) 5C doesn't have invincibility frames, is slower than (old) 5D, but had a large enough hitbox to hit Taokaka crawl. So I'd like to see someone attempt 6B -> (new) 5D and see if that still combos.

Okay, I added that info. I think I'll be giving the guide a major revamp eventually. There are a lot of possible strings, so it is more important to understand each individual move. IE: I think I'll put down how I use the various chain-revolver attacks, a few examples of key frame-traps, and all that. I'll try to keep the strings that serve as an example and cut down a lot of the language. I think this guide is currently too verbose.

Meh, I am willing to drop the debate. No hard feelings to Archling, I just have a harsh debate style that is all. That said, I feel the need to defend myself. Don't worry about counter-arguing about this, I'm just more or less explaining the reasoning behind my post. My argument: 2B leads to 5C naturally. His Argument: You can stop at 2B. What his argument should be: 2B does not lead to 5C naturally. Believe it or not, these two arguments (what he is currently arguing, and what he should be arguing) are different. IE: His initial thesis should be stronger than what he made if he wants to prove me wrong. I don't disagree with his current claim: stopping your gatling chains midway can be a useful surprise, in fact, 5A -> pause / dash -> 5A is that precisely. To make the argument I feel is necessary against me, he has to demonstrate that 2B's options are stronger than 5C's options, and not merely state that you can stop at 2B. More or less, the claim he makes is almost unrelated to the subject matter at hand. Archling: I am satisfied with leaving this debate as "Agree to Disagree" by the way. Theory Fighting is not a demonstration of skill anyway. I do have fun discussing theoretical paths in execution, kinda a "My kung-fu is better than your kung-fu", even if they are somewhat irrelevant to battle. (IE: If we really wanted to get better, I'm sure we both have something to practice that we both agree on, like better 5A spam ) So do not feel pressured by my posts to respond if you don't want to.

I know what you are trying to argue. What I'm saying is, I don't see the connection between your argument (ie: this post) and your point (ie: 5C sucks). You say a lot of things about 2B, gatling charts, and a few generic things about "forcing your opponent to think", but you never relate it back to 5C.

I'm sorry that I don't get the connection... But what does your last post have to do with "5C has too much commitment" ?? (which is more or less the point of this little debate... as far as I know...) I mean, sure, if you don't wanna follow gattlings, go on ahead. I think thats a fine idea too, going from 2B -> 5A again seems like a decent "surprise" strategy to reset 5A pressure, but I don't see what it has to do with this conversation.

First: 5A is a level 1 attack. You are jump-canceling with only +5 frames. Jump cancel from 5C is safer with +12 frames from the jump cancel. Those 7 frames are enough for someone to jump and air-grab you... it is harder to air grab vs a jump-canceled 5C. In addition, 5C offers pressure to tall characters like Tager (and IIRC, Jin). 5C -> Jump Cancel -> j.B / j.C can cover your rise, making your airborne time safer. 5A -> Jump Cancel -> j.C has a hole. Second: No holes means that your opponent can let go of his controller and let the game auto-block the rest of the string. Whether you like it or not, you have to eventually have a hole, with exception of converting 5A into a low (say, 2B). Without a hole, your opponent can let go of the controller and he'll block the rest of the string. You're just giving him time to think. Third: if you 2B your opponent, and it is blocked, what do you do? The most logical response from a blocked 5A -> 2B is to just continue to 5B -> 5C -> mixup. Basically, 5C is your next "mixup junction" after attempting a "no-hole" low from 5A. On both hit and block, this is safe (vs opponents without a DP / Counter) and easy. (Doesn't work vs Rachel, but whatever) Any good 5A game should include 2B, so the progression into 5C is only natural. (unless you like to leave your gatling chains on a frame disadvantage after 5B ?? WTF vs Bang or Nu who can't even punish your 5B -> 5C hole.) Fourth: It is not always logical to pressure the opponent with 5A. Against Tager, I get more success by zoning him with 5B (and hit-confirming into 5C -> jump cancel j.C combo) than I do with 5A (which I have to cross both 360A and 360B range, and Tager's own 5A spam is pretty good). Zoning with 5B naturally leads to 5C pressure. There are plenty of reasons to use 5C. And when we get matchup specific, half the cast can't punish you for 5B -> 5C anyway (and those who can punish you... can punish your staggered 5A just as easily. Staggered 5A has a 2-frame hole. You can't gatling during the recovery of your attack.) Don't get me wrong, 5A pressure is good, really really good. But really, you aren't going to 5A them all day. Eventually, you'll have to dash forward (which opens you up), stagger a bit (opens up holes just as large as 5B->5C), or convert your blocked 5A into a mixup (which naturally leads to 5C). You can jump cancel if you want, but waiting for 5C to jump cancel is much safer. Oh yeah, and Disjointed Hitbox and Range. Try doing that with 5A. EDIT: And how could I forget? ~4k counter-hit combos. 5C -> (COUNTER!!) -> 5D -> 6C -> lolz pwned.

The (Drive) 5A -> 6A -> 5A string is terrible, and quite possibly the worst piece of crap you can possibly do as Noel. Wait for the 6A, then grab. Problem solved. Or, if you wanna be flashy about it, 5D during your opponent's 6A. 5D -> (Counterhit!!) -> 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> air combo == ~3.9k damage. Another simple solution is to just 6A them after their (drive) 6A. Drive is unsafe, especially vs Noel. Quickly convert 2D into -> 5B -> 236D (vs some opponents) to safely get out of drive. The 5B is "unsafe", you need to rely on the 2D -> 28D "trap" to discourage your opponent from trying to counter-hit you after the 2D. But to keep going into Drive A spam is just... stupid. Get out quickly.

As I noted in my post... if you try to counter-hit it with 5B, he can counter-hit YOU with 28D into 6C BC loop -> 5D -> 6B -> 5C -> etc. etc. Or, if he's feeling really lucky (lol), 2D -> 5D will go through the 5B and counter-hit you into 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> air combo for 3.9k damage. Yes, 2D is unsafe. However, as unsafe as it is, you should play 2D as well as you can, and that involves the 28D / 5B mixup. 2D- > 5B -> 236D escapes if the opponent keeps blocking, 2D -> 28D counter-hits those who try to mash you out. And when played like this, I think it greatly lowers the risk of using 2D.

Blocking 2D is straightforward of course, I agree. I only do it when my opponent starts blocking the 2C. A Blocked 2D isn't an instant lose however, and even a simple "switch up" between (Drive) 5B and 28D will leave you with one last hope before your opponent punishes you (28D will hit them as a frame trap if they try to punish you early, which of course punishes them pretty hard into a 6C combo in the corner / rapid cancel, and 5B (into optional -> 236D) will safely push them away on block). Basically, it is indeed a disadvantage: but it isn't a "loss" just yet. 214A is risky of course. I can agree with that. Its one of your high damage options however, and especially works on a Hakumen who is expecting a 2D. Its an option, lets leave it at that. Throwing you out of the sky does not match my experience. In theory-fighting... your jump-cancel leaves you with +12 frames once you factor in Noel's 4-frame jumping time. (16 frames of blockstun from 5C, jump cancel into a jump == +12 frames left). If your opponent is jumping up and air-grabbing you when you have a +12 advantage, you have bigger issues. Air Grabs in this game are not 0 frame either. I can imagine some sort of anti-air screwing things up (Rachel's cat-uppercut is absurd, or Hakumen's 6A) sure, I'll give ya that, some sort of anti-air option (Tager 623C, or whatever)... But not air-throws. That just doesn't happen vs me after a 5C jump cancel at least. And there are ways around the anti-air options... generally involving a simple double-jump, or a rising j.C/j.B/j.A.

Maybe thats why I don't get it 100% :-p I could have sworn that I got it once or twice vs him the other day... I'll go check tonight.

Options from 5C on block: Jump Cancel (which leads to j.D crossup, rising j.C or j.B on some opponents, falling j.C which leads to j.D cancel -> stuff) 2D (Overhead) (actually, 5C gatlings to all of the drives, but 2D is probably the one with the most abuse) 2C (No holes during 5C -> 2C gatling, +1 frame advantage, its own mixup of 3C and 2D as well). Super Cancels (specifically, 214A) So we have a jump cancel, a high, a low with +Frames, and an untechable grab that can gatling from 5C on block. How is that too much commitment, especially against the half of the cast who don't have an attack with invincibility on frame 1? (IE: the half of the cast who can't punish the 5B -> 5C hole?) I understand 5C commitment issues vs Jin, Ragna, Hakumen, Tager, and Litchi (with staff)... but that is only 4 or 5 of the characters. Yeah, lag can screw you over, but also a late / delayed reaction time :-p. You are doing it wrong. VS Rachel, a properly timed 6B can only be blocked. The point is to have the 6B on them while they are waking up. Catchair takes ~4 frames before guard point kicks in, and 6B is somewhat meaty. So you can't actually get Cat Chaired vs a properly done wakeup 6B. Usually, its bad timing. (Drive) 6B -> 5C should generally be done as fast as possible, and (Drive) 5C -> 6B requires a bit of timing / practice before you can get it down perfectly. Mash it out in training mode vs Carl and Arakune until you're 100% perfect with it.

Its perfectly safe vs Rachel, Taokaka, Staffless Litchi, Bang, Mirror Match Noel, Carl and Nu. These guys only have defensive options between 5B -> 5C (ie: backdash, counter-assault or whatever) So both Staggered 5As and the 5B -> 5C hole can only hurt your opponent. Well... they can spend 50% heat on a distortion but that is not typically in the gameplan of these characters. A blocked 5C is a semi-free mixup for Noel. 5C -> 2C is perfectly safe, leaves you with a +1 frame advantage to continue pressure if you want to (2C -> 5B for example), and has the option of 3C / 2D as a mixup. Enough 5C -> 2Cs and you'll train the opponent to block low on instinct... giving you the opportunity to 5C -> 2D the opponent which needs to be blocked high. Even against Tager, 5C out ranges his 360A at least, and leads to a jump cancel -> rising j.C. It can be used decently for pressure. I think 5C is a very useful part of Noel's Mixup game. Getting to 5C involves risk vs defensive attacks (like Hakumen's counter or Tager's 360A), but that doesn't mean you should remove it from your gameplan.

Well, 720C has invincibility from frame 1 (never vulnerable), and 360A has invincibility on frame 3 (vulnerable for only 2 frames). While staggering makes it harder for the opponent to 360A or 720C you, it doesn't make it impossible. And a well staggered 5A should have a 2-frame hole, which means that both 360A and 720C can beat out staggered 5As. (Both 360B and Tager's normal BC grab are beat by properly staggered 5A... assuming he doesn't instant block you or something) Frame Traps give your opponent an opportunity to counter you, especially Tager who has a 3rd-frame option (360A), and a conditional 1-frame option (236A/B vs Projectiles and 720C with Heat). However, it screws with their auto-block, and most of their options will lose out to a Frame Trap. (A Tager who tries to beat you by using his 5A should lose to a staggered 5A). The other Frame Trap you always do that you probably don't realize... is 5B -> 5C. There's a 2 frame hole IIRC, and a 1-frame hole from 5B -> 2C. Both lose out to Tager's 236A. Basically: Frame Traps against a good Tager generally is... a bad idea. Especially if the frame trap is predictable. IMO, better to play it safe and zone him with 5B outside the range of his grab and what-not. Or, you can always just 5A -> 2B him, because if he's buffering a 360A he probably isn't holding down-back to block the incoming low.

Yup. Watch, if you just 5A spam an opponent, he can just block the first one and let auto-guard take care of the rest. He can buffer a grab and the next time you run up to him he'll grab as soon as he's out of guard stun. On the other hand, if you do 5A -> slight delay -> 5A, you can time it so that the 2nd 5A comes out late enough so that the auto-guard doesn't activate, but it comes out fast enough to beat out the counter-throw attempt.

Stagger that 5A. Just 5Aing them over and over at max speed doesn't really do anything, and the 5A -> Dash -> 5A is generally too slow to beat out pokes, grabs, and whatnot. Instead, do 5A -> 5A -> (wait just long enough) -> 5A. If done correctly, your 5A will interrupt the opponent's grab / jab and you can follow up into a 5A -> 6A -> 6C -> blah combo. They shouldn't be out-jabbing / grabbing you during proper 5A spam. Barrier Cancel your dashes if your opponent does something while you are running at him. You cannot block while running, you can only barrier-block when you are running. A lot of the times where you "lost momentum", you could have just barrier-blocked the reversal attempt. Good times to barrier-cancel your dash are... in reaction to Jin's air 236D, his (really slow) 623C if you see it comming, and especially: distortions. You got the entire super-freeze to just hold back + barrier and hope the barrier comes up in time. Work on your chain-revolver from mid-screen. It is more flexible than Noel's corner-chain revolver, and it should improve your damage output by a lot. Block low by default vs Jin. His overhead sucks. Block high when he jumps, watch for the j.D crossup / reverse crossup and you're gold. You can 3C under Jin's projectiles when he's on the ground. If he throws a projectile at you and you are in 3C range, 3C him and then combo for massive damage. Learn Noel's Oki game. A well timed 6B on the wakeup can turn a knock-down into another 6B -> 6C -> 2C -> 3C -> Chain Revolver -> knockdown, giving you another chance to 6B on his wakeup. Watch out of course for 623C/D or Distortions... but at very least you should do some wakeup-pressure occasionally to force your opponent into the defensive. Don't let him wakeup for free. And Oh god. Please don't EVER do that 5D -> 6A -> 5A crap from the DVD. Its the worst ****ing combo I've ever seen in my life. It is terrible on block, and terrible if it hits. You really should _never_ do that. 5D -> 6A -> 5A -> 6A -> 5A -> 236D for what? 1800 damage or something? Instead, do 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> j.B -> j.C -> j.236C for ~3.9k damage. Easily more than double your damage output from a 5D. Against Jin (and only Jin), you can do 5D -> 5C -> 6C -> 5C -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> j.C -> j.236C for 4.5k+ damage (tiger knee makes it easier). If you screw up 5D -> (Drive) 6C (you should only do it on hit-confirm... but lets say you screw up), you aren't totally screwed yet. (Drive) 6C -> 5B is a frame trap which will beat out grabs and almost every jab, and (Drive) 6C -> 214D will beat out most dragon-punch / invincibility abuse attempts. Of course, 5D -> 6C has a hole twice the size of Texas so they can probably jab you out of that. On the other hand, 5D -> (Drive) 6A / 5A is crap on both block and on hit. Don't do it!! If 6C ever hits them while they are in the air, you can typically follow up with 6C -> BC Loop. If they are "too high" to do a Chain Revolver combo, then finish with an air combo. (2nd hit) 6C counter-hit combos into 6C BC loop in the corner. -------- Work on your options from 5C and 2C. I think I only saw you do 2C -> (stop) and 2C -> 3C.. Every 5C you did was followed by 2C. Mix it up a bit. 2C is a low. 2D is an overhead that combos into 2D -> 6A -> 28D -> 6C BC loop -> 5D -> 6B -> etc. etc. From 5C or 2C, force your opponent to react to your 2D / 2C / 3C, or to start throwing out dragon-punches at you. In addition, 2C leaves you with +1 frame advantage, giving you a minor advantage if you want to continue your pressure. (2C -> 66 -> 5A -> more pressure) Also, for mixup, don't forget that 6B gatlings into 2D as well. A double-overhead is always fun when it hits :-) Be sure to know what to do when 2D is blocked however, you're at a sizable disadvantage if they manage to block 2D. Noel's mixup is good. Be a bit more random, do more than just 5C -> 2C... remember your options from 5C -> 2D, or 5C -> jump cancel. Learn and work with all of them. -------- In your Noel vs Ragna, you did a 2C -> 236236D distortion. Thats decent, but know that the 2C -> Rapid Cancel -> 66A -> 6C -> 5D -> (BnB Chain Revolver) does more damage. Don't 6C -> 2C your opponents when they whiff an Inferno Divider. Go for 6A -> 6C -> tons of damage. 2C is a combo dead-end. Decent for pressure, safe on block, but if you know you are going to hit them, its best to do something else. Agreed. In fact, what your _real_ bad habits are probably nothing you recognize. A good opponent will recognize your habits and then punish you for them.

j.D isn't an overhead, so I doubt that the new j.Dish move is an overhead either.