Eshi

winning is going to be so hard once people learn to roll through EX Maragidyne. I regret telling my local community about it back when I played Akihiko...

5B and jB are both treated as projectiles, and other projectiles will cancel out the shot. However it requires the cards to be in front of Naoto when she does the shot instead of behind, which will very rarely be the case since it goes through her during F-Action.

yeah, wake-up is actually a bad time to use it against good players that know the match-up. Since Liz's F-Action is super slow and her guard cancel is worthless, pretty much everyone can option select with meaty 5AA + jump and beat all 3. If they can't meaty though, then hell yes.

A huge portion of Elizabeth's damage comes from this basic mix-up but it's actually incredibly easy to beat with experience. One option is to react to Elizabeth's animation, her 2C (shout) and 5D (grab) make her do completely different things. Another option I see a lot of players do is up back after 5CC, if the persona is spaced too far away then 2C won't hit during jump start-up so it beats both of them plus 5CC staggers. It only loses to 214A since it's air unblockable, but then 5D/5CC stagger/214A all lose to mashing. Liz has to make really good reads once people know the match-up.

There are two fairly strong Chie players in Atlanta so I can say with confidence that this match-up is really annoying. You have to burst as early as possible once Chie gets a hit on you or you lose the round, it straight up doesn't matter how good your blocking is. Because of Liz's terrible defense and low health, Chie's knockdown okizeme becomes brutally effective. Even if you do block it, she can just dash > 5A pressure until she hits you again and hitconfirm into a knockdown, again. You can't mash anything because her normals are too slow. If you try to F-Action she'll jump on reaction and punish, if you try to jump out she can hitconfirm on reaction. She doesn't even have to react to punish guard cancel. The only options Liz has are roll (loses to throw mix-up), coffin super, and MAYBE backdash. You absolutely HAVE to keep your momentum or she will ruin your shit. Luckily, spacing her out isn't incredibly hard and Liz's mix-up also works pretty well. Chie is stupidly good at hit confirming air counterhits, so try to stay grounded or spacing her out with jB instead of jumping in. Chie's best poke is 5C which will punish random 2Bing. The match-up is manageable as long as you keep that bitch as far away from 5A range as possible.

Well Agni appears to play Liz, and Chie can just 5A > dash all day and Liz can't do anything about it. Everything but coffin super will get punished on reaction. Then there's Chie's knockdown okizeme on top of Liz having the lowest health of the game. It's pretty close to Mitsuru's bullshit.

You are pushing 2C too late, her 5A is 7 frames so it's actually pretty slow. What you really have to worry about is EX Coup Droit because it's just as fast as her 5A while traveling halfway across the screen. So if you positioned yourself too closely, it will just ignore your mix-up and eat you (even in the corner). Shit is dumb.

Handling Labrys in the air is a big thing, I passed it off as chance at first but something about her trajectory and that jB makes my AA 2B whiff all the time (labrys goes behind) or just get beat. Her normals seem pretty big and safe. I don't really understand how to regain control of the match once she gets in, I just eat her tiny mix-ups until she red axe supers for 50-60%.

This match-up is actually giving me a ton of trouble vs. strong players. I'd love it if someone with more experience gave some really good insight with how to approach it

lol, yeah... those matches really pissed me off because I knew we had a good connection before. thanks for letting me know =)

DRS Nashfan has a really sick Mitsuru. I've practiced the Elizabeth match-up a ton to get around the disadvantage and he still beat me 10-1. Really good matches :3

I really wish I understood the secret to pulling off those normal tornado combos because I have no fucking idea why I can't do it in training mode -_-

I'm inclined to learn the setups, like 90% of netplayers don't block low after EX maragidyne for some bizarre reason so it would be easy to land >_>

that's how I felt when I picked Akihiko first, which is why I switched characters after ~3 weeks. if you're having trouble succeeding then perhaps consider a fresh start, you may find more success that way :3

it completely makes sense for her not to be able to deal with herself. not all mirror matches are created equally. some mirrors are played like any other match because the character has a strong, well-rounded set of tools, and other mirrors are awful because a few things a character has craps on their other tools. Think Arakune. In Liz's case her defense options are complete shit, her pokes and zoning are really slow/low damage and she has super low health. But her persona mix-up is really, really good. So whoever gets hit confirmed or put in a corner first almost always loses.

You have time to run closer first before the IAD. It is really weird timing though, I'm still not used to it.

mitsuru's 5A is more godlike and is also a frame faster, so... if you desperately want to stop her stupid Coup Droit pressure before it kills you, Mind Crush can save your ass. If she pressed any button and you have 100 meter, you get a free D Ghastly Wail for a beefy combo. If she did DP then block/roll. If she went for rising jB, run up and 2B. The only thing that beats it is inputting nothing, but because Liz's answers to Coup Droit pressure are so bad the tendency for Mitsurus to press buttons after it is really high.

I like the idea of using the RPS mix-up on Mitsuru. Corner pressure isn't as good because that stupid fucking EX Droit will beat everything without perfect spacing. Dumb bitch -.- There's a funny gimmick from AOA starter - if you AOA twice in a combo, the opponent will instantly recover after the first All-Out Rush hit. So if you OMC it, instantly throwing will connect. Will only work once against good players... but hey, it'll work once :D

y/w :3 it confused me at first too, never would have tested it without damosu videos

Elizabeth's counter assault is extremely bad and her F-Action can get option selected for 6k fatal counter combos in high level play. This means that mind charge is often the best defensive option when available because it pauses the game for two seconds so you can figure out the exact option to beat what the opponent already inputted. It doesn't have any invincibility though so it will flat out lose to meaties (C Ghastly Wail can beat however), but in situations where you know you can't get meaty'd (like after a block Coup Droit), Mind Charge can seriously turn the match in your favor.

It's not listed in the data thread but the C & D versions of ghastly wail are different. The D version can be followed up, but the C version has invincibility on start-up (don't think the D version does) so it will beat meaty attacks. Generally if you do a mind charge and know ghastly wail will hit, always do the D version.

yeah, this has my nomination for worst mirror match in P4A. Liz completely lacks the tools to deal with herself so the first person to get a good hit usually wins n_n

ah, I tried to CTRL+F it to see if it was already there but didn't get it because it's referred to as C.Agi. It does not actually require any conditioning unless you're specifically doing the jD/2C 50-50 ender to make people want to air tech. It's easy to end a true combo with 2C to get the same guaranteed okizeme. Another trick I didn't see in here: while an opponent is under the Fear status, throws are automatically treated as counter throws which means they can't be teched. At all. So if you go for a reset - say after 214B > 5A, or even an AOA OMC, to get them standing - and then go for throw, jump and F-Action are their only escape options.

LOL, I didn't realize what that meant at first... that's actually really clever and I want to steal it

Another thing I want to add (I think it's appropriate for here). Liz has a useful input option select to help her hit confirm 2C. After pretty much every 2C while she has 50 meter, input 2C > 214B > OMC > 5C. If the opponent tries to chicken block, 2C > 214B will combo as normal and you can react with a hit confirm. If the opponent blocks 2C, then Liz gets OMC > 5C frame trap instead. Also, she can do this meterless with a meaty 2C. If she does a fullscreen combo ending with 2C > 214B > 2C > 5C > 2C, she can buffer 2C again during their emergency tech. Input 214B > delay > 5C. If they don't block it then you get a normal hit confirm into whatever, but on block the 2C is extremely meaty so they'll get frame trapped by 5C. EDIT: spamming moar elizabeth shit! If Liz gets to do a very close range block string (like after a blocked SP Maragidyne), do 5AA > 9 > air turn > 6 (IAD) > jA. It's a bit tricky to time and the hit confirm is tight, but this is a very sneaky cross-up that's also safe against cross-up vulnerable F-Actions (EG: Yu, Akihiko, Naoto and more). If you knock someone down from the air with jB and end up close to them, you can do a meaty 5D. This will grap on wake-up, but it also pushes the opponent's body away from Liz, so if Mitsuru/Yu/Akihiko/etc. use an F-Action the persona will eat it while Elizabeth is safe and free to punish with 5C for 4k damage. :3