Death Battle: Ragna vs. Sol

[Errol]

sol the mary sue of gg?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Easily (he's a friggin' self-insert of Ishiwatari). But as mentioned earlier, his nearly infinite power can't solve his problems. So a bit more well-written than the average Mary Sue.

[Arcus Diabolus]

Sol, because f**k Ragna.

 

Sol is actually intelligent, has designed magical weapons that help him use his powers effectively, has a fighting experience of more than 100 years, rarely loses his temper (unlike Ragna, who always runs into shit he can't manage most of the time because of stupid reasons), actually understands about the powers he uses (magic) and he has had to take on bigger, out of control monstrosities by himself without having to transform into that dragon (AKA giant form Valentine).

 

Ragna... words can't describe fully how dull, plain, stupid and useless he is. He always wins because of deus machina bullcrap.

Thus the boring superman crap I said before. 

 

....This was lengthier than it needed to be.

 

Tl;DR: They're both awesome, Sol is just more awesome while Ragna has a token ability that may or may not decide it.

Sure, I get its not about his strength in terms of story, but the same idea applies to Superman. His story is less about his strength and more about how he interacts with the world. Doesn't really change the fact that he is literally invulnerable from even the superpowers of his own universe, the only true threat is himself. Being the creator of the weapons of his closest rivals (which are actually not really that close) doesn't help any. 

 

If I had to pin a character to Ragna (I swear I said this before somewhere...) I would say he's like Goku, being forced to overcome impossible odds and improving with each hardship, despite having a similar weakness as Sol. I'm pretty sure Sol just evolves and gets stronger over time 'cause the devs want a way out in the case that someone makes a "death battle" pitting him against someone stronger. "Oh? Someone stronger than Sol? We can't have that. Ok, Sol just Evolved, now he's stronger. Git Gud." Its the whole "He's as strong as he needs to be" argument for Superman all over again.

 

That said, this is easily another Goku vs Superman death battle. 

 

I will eat my words the instant I see Sol truly on the ropes with no way out, or even better ACTUALLY lose, not some technicality or him calling it quits because he's feels lazy. Until that happens, Ragna will be to me much more interesting to follow as a character. 

 

This is turning into a rant... I'm sorry. 

[burningvigor]

Eh...I never really considered anything before Xrd "dark" per se, but rather innocuous. But that's just me.

 

Really?  I haven't played the story mode of XX in forever, but I remember there were a lot of tension with characters, to the point where they would kill each other or be killed.   A lot of chars had dark back stories as well.  I know for the most part a lot of it isn't canon but it gave a darker feel to the world compared to Xrd.

 

I recall in one of Testament's ending, I think I-no killed Dizzy while she was under Johnnys care.  He revoked humanity and killed Johnny, then he just went on a rampage killing any human he encountered. 

 

Xrd kinda has that happy friendship anime vibe going on that previous GG didn't.

[BlackYakuzu94]

 

Sure, I get its not about his strength in terms of story, but the same idea applies to Superman. His story is less about his strength and more about how he interacts with the world. Doesn't really change the fact that he is literally invulnerable from even the superpowers of his own universe, the only true threat is himself. Being the creator of the weapons of his closest rivals (which are actually not really that close) doesn't help any. 

 

If I had to pin a character to Ragna (I swear I said this before somewhere...) I would say he's like Goku, being forced to overcome impossible odds and improving with each hardship, despite having a similar weakness as Sol. I'm pretty sure Sol just evolves and gets stronger over time 'cause the devs want a way out in the case that someone makes a "death battle" pitting him against someone stronger. "Oh? Someone stronger than Sol? We can't have that. Ok, Sol just Evolved, now he's stronger. Git Gud." Its the whole "He's as strong as he needs to be" argument for Superman all over again.

 

That said, this is easily another Goku vs Superman death battle. 

 

I will eat my words the instant I see Sol truly on the ropes with no way out, or even better ACTUALLY lose, not some technicality or him calling it quits because he's feels lazy. Until that happens, Ragna will be to me much more interesting to follow as a character. 

 

This is turning into a rant... I'm sorry. 

 

 

*shrug* I get that it can be boring for Sol to be so uberly strong just because the plot dictates that and the fact that nobody can really match him is sort of annoying, but I still feel it makes Sol an interesting character, even if I do find Ragna's struggles more relatable.

 

 

 

For me it's like this: Sol is the person we all want to be, but Ragna is the person who we actually are.

[Lucalibur]

I don't know, most people are good at what they do, and Ragna isn't really good at anything. It's fairer to compare Sol to what we will become, and Ragna to what we used to be.

 

That being said, it was already brought up that most of the plot in GG has to be fixed through ways other than Sol beating the crap out of everyone. I really don't get the problem with him being so ridiculously OP when it hardly has as much effect on the plot as it could have. I find his struggles much more interesting than Ragna's for that and other reasons.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I don't know, most people are good at what they do, and Ragna isn't really good at anything. It's fairer to compare Sol to what we will become, and Ragna to what we used to be.

 

That being said, it was already brought up that most of the plot in GG has to be fixed through ways other than Sol beating the crap out of everyone. I really don't get the problem with him being so ridiculously OP when it hardly has as much effect on the plot as it could have. I find his struggles much more interesting than Ragna's for that and other reasons.

 

Ragna has slowly, but surely crawled out of the ditch that the plot has thrown him into. For all of the crap that he gets, he continues to keep going despite any sane man would probabl be calling it quits ages ago. And because of that, he does get very small victories that show he is improving.

 

It's really disingenuous to say he hasn't done or accomplished anything when that's...kind of not true. Like damn, I hate how much shit gets piled on him too and wished he would accomplish something big  but I'll at least acknowledge that's growing and gets small victories sometimes. Even if I pull my hair out at most of the shit that happens to him(CP's ending still pisses me off) 

[Arcus Diabolus]

 Even if I pull my hair out at most of the shit that happens to him(CP's ending still pisses me off) 

Agreed. He's set up to be like a final boss now. Not sure how they are gonna get him to be a main character, if he is going to be one. All I know is it could 50-50 whenever or not he dies by the end of the series. 

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Matter of fact: I LOATHE Sol, he's one of the chars I like the least from Guilty Gear... but I'd be stupid if I deny he's an overall better and more prepared char than Blazblue's angsty teen white hair dood.

[BoltofShadow]

Just saying, yes Sol is broken powerful but not invincible.

Let's remember he was getting bodied by Ramlethal at the beginning of Story Mode.

He totally could've been holding back and was caught off guard, but something to consider.

[Layer]

Don't get me wrong bruh, I <3 Ragna. He is pretty much the sole reason I will sit through BB's awful story, because he is a sane person walking among a sea of lunatics and his observations are pure comedy.

 

Seriously though, Sol is basically a well-written Mary Sue, naturally he'll be pretty invincible.

 

I don't doubt that, but I couldn't help but point out the irony.

[Poultrygeist]

Really?  I haven't played the story mode of XX in forever, but I remember there were a lot of tension with characters, to the point where they would kill each other or be killed.   A lot of chars had dark back stories as well.  I know for the most part a lot of it isn't canon but it gave a darker feel to the world compared to Xrd.

 

I recall in one of Testament's ending, I think I-no killed Dizzy while she was under Johnnys care.  He revoked humanity and killed Johnny, then he just went on a rampage killing any human he encountered. 

 

Xrd kinda has that happy friendship anime vibe going on that previous GG didn't.

 

That has more to do with the fact that most of the classic GG cast don't really do anything in Xrd story.  Notice how whenever they do come up it's pretty serious stuff, like Faust's confrontation with Zato.

[D.R.F.]

I really do hope the not Sol/Ky part of the story takes a bit more precedence. The assasins are too interesting to be so left out, and Faust's conversation at the end leaves me very intrigued. I love Sol and his development, but I also want to know more about the world not related to him.

[mAc Chaos]

What if they did Sol VS Hakumen...

[Poultrygeist]

I think the one with the best odds of being entertaining would be Terumi/Hazama vs I-No, because they're both crazy out of their minds sadistic and extremely dangerous, not to mention equal in terms of strength and character.  

[VermilionBird]

Everyone's overlooking how Ragna will win, though.
Soul Eater = Sol Eater

[Solhunter]

That depends on whether or not Soul Sinker is factored into Sol's powerset for the purposes of this DB. Otherwise, Sol has an ability that can allow him to resist a majority of the effects from Ragna's Soul Eater. They may also take into account that even if Ragna manages to devour Sol's soul, it might not be a good idea, because we know what inevitably happened to Valentine when she kept pulling Sol into her soul space during their final battle. Though, I'm not quite clear if that was an added effect from Soul Sinker or Sol's own power.

 

I alos notice that they sometimes set up certain battles a bit lopsidedly.  Take Cloud vs Link for example: Link in DB was a composite character who got nearly every feat from his multiple reincarnations(since some of his incarnates are stronger, faster, more skilled, etc. than others) and almost all of their equipment. Whereas Cloud was only allowed his canonical materia and moveset.   Granted, this made for a much more even battle since any sole incarnation of Link would likely lose to Cloud in combat, especially if Cloud was allowed to have other Materia.

 

They did a similar thing with Kirby vs Majin Buu and Ryu vs Scorpion, where they took into the account Kirby, Ryu and Scorpion's anime/TV show feats (despite them being non-canon to the game's continuity, save for Assassin's Fist) as well as the game's.  Not a complaint, mind you, but merely a observation from being a fan of Death Battle for so long.

 

But I digress.  Essentially, I can see only three things that can help Ragna: 

 

1. His life-link with Nu, which renders him pretty much unkillable (though, it didn't seem to save him in his CS bad ending for some unexplained reason other than Nu being technically "dead" during that time).

 

2. His Soul Eater feeding off of his lifeforce, provided Sol doesn't get Soul Sinker (and again, it's kinda iffy even if Sol doesn't have it ).

 

3. Letting the Azure Grimoire go berserk and transform into the Black Beast against Sol. Though, this would cause Sol to ditch his limiter in retaliation to transform into his Dragon Gear form, in which case, we'll probably get an ending similar to Wily vs Eggman (where the Earth is eight levels of screwed regardless of who wins).

 

 

Now on another topic: In regards to Sol's power level in GG, I think people are blowing it a little out of proportion here.  It literally took Sol hundreds of years to become as strong as he is now.   Slayer is often implicated to be several times stronger than Sol is, even taking his Gear form into account; Gabriel may be in the same boat, being Slayer's rival.  Dizzy and Sin have the potential to surpass him (heck, when Sol fought Dizzy in Guilty Gear X Plus, he explicitly said that he can't afford to fool around with her), and are close to being his peers in power despite being less than a decade old.  Tyr could possibly win against him in a fight since he's an anti-magic tank who can absorb any magical attack sent his way and convert it for his own attacks, along with ridiculous transmutation abilities that allow him to disintegrate or create forms of matter--including magic--and the power to destroy a Gear ship that was as large as Zepp (which, in itself, is the size of a small country) with a concentrated energy blast when he fully merges with Fenrir.  Raven is immortal and hasn't showcased his full abilities yet but he was capable of shrugging off a Gun Flame from Sol that destroyed several houses in Lightning the Argent. He then said to Sol: "Was that it?  Your flames aren't hot at all", and Sol's shown to be a little nervous about fighting him after that encounter.  He can also manipulate time and space at a level much higher than Faust's. 

 

Raven is essentially to Sol what Hakumen is to Ragna. 

 

We also have Bedman, who is shown to fight evenly with Sol and we still have no idea just how powerful Bedman truly is yet.

 

Then there's That Man, who always treats fighting a serious Sol as a casual annoyance.   Even in Overture, where Sol utilizes his evolved Dragon Install, he isn't able to do anything to That Man at all and only ends up exhausting himself.  Yes, he wasn't in his full Gear form or using his true power, but That Man, throughout the entire battle, doesn't exert himself AT ALL and treats it like a game. If anything, he's far more notorious of holding back than Sol is, along with Slayer.

[VermilionBird]

I think Ragna has potential to win if Soul Sinker isn't implemented. I mean, up until the events of CP, Sol could have quite easily taken this DB, but we know that Ragna has gotten substantially stronger since then.
If DB takes Ragna's beserk state at the end of CP as something he can use when he properly loses it (much like Ryu turning into Dark Ryu), then Ragna would possibly win (or we get a situation much like Eggman and Wily where it's a draw, or someone else [i.e. the Black Beast] is counted as the winner). If we take the fact that Mu is heavily implied to have bested every character in the multiple Continuum Shifts, and then take the fact that beserk Rags managed to not only best her, but also heavily injure Jin at the same time... then well, Ragna MIGHT stand more of a chance than everyone else is saying.

Besides, if it comes to it, Sol couldn't take on the Black Beast and win, especially not in the time it takes a DB to end. Firstly, Sol possesses nothing that could harm the BB because he doesn't own anything outside of Logic.
The only way around is this is saying that Sol is outside of the BB universe's Logic, but that still means nothing considering it took 100% Hakumen, the other five Heroes, and a lot of Magic and Ars Magus soldiers to kill the Beast in the space of near a decade.
Lots of people here are saying it's not much of a competition, but Rags managed to take on several characters without activating his Azure Grimoire, proving that he's become a Hell of a lot stronger.

tl;dr: Ragna isn't all that weak anymore, and Sol couldn't kill the Black Beast.

[Lou_Cypher]

What makes you think Ragna losing control over the Azure Grimoire automatically equate to The Black Beast? Why shouldn't it just leave him a useless vegetable like in one of his Bad Endings in CS? It's not like Nu is helping him become the Black Beast in Death Battle, he has the body but not the heart.

 

And what makes you think Sol can't take on the Black Beast. The only reason the Black Beast can't be fought properly at the time was because Ars Magus and Ars Armagus haven't been developed to combat it yet. Sol can already amplify magic with the Fireseal and he has been seen to be destroying whole swathes of land in destructive capacity alone. Or that city-sized Gear from the novel fallling from space that he blasted from the ground.

[VermilionBird]

He wasn't a vegetable, he still managed to form a Black Beast by himself, judging by the lines in his bad ending. But it seems he wasn't as powerful as the original.

The magic in GG and the magic in BB are two completely different things, just because Sol can manipulate the magic in his canon doesn't mean he can manipulate the one in BB's.

[Jmyster]

And then who's to say Guilty Gear's magic isn't super effective against the Black Beast? You'll go in circles with that line of logic.

[Lucalibur]

It's more practical to generalize and say that magic from GG works in BB too(and vice-versa). Or else you could argue all sorts of setting differences, and that is a big waste of time.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Yea, for the sake of clarity, we're going to have to assume whatever magical invulnerabilities are null here.

[destruction_adv]

He wasn't a vegetable, he still managed to form a Black Beast by himself, judging by the lines in his bad ending. But it seems he wasn't as powerful as the original.

The magic in GG and the magic in BB are two completely different things, just because Sol can manipulate the magic in his canon doesn't mean he can manipulate the one in BB's.

In this case, Sol clearly wins. Ragna has to use seither to fuel his magic, Magic in GG is an infinite source of free energy. not to mention Ars Armagus are explicitly inferior to magic.

[BlackYakuzu94]

In this case, Sol clearly wins. Ragna has to use seither to fuel his magic, Magic in GG is an infinite source of free energy. not to mention Ars Armagus are explicitly inferior to magic.

 

You realize the Azure Grimoire is made entirely of seither and produces it right?