The Good, the Bad, and Ugly as Hell Baiken Matchups

[tolore]

baikens F.s gets stuffed by robo ky's f.s, at least ever time we've both done it on round start I get hit.

[Hi-C]

I try to poke people out with 2S at the start or slowly back-up to see what they do. Robo-Ky is relatively easy when he has tension as J.G said. Just watch his tension, and watch his heat gauge. Some of his attacks hurt like hell when they are charged from the overheating.

Anyone have good tips against I-No? I CH-Anchor when she tries a Sultry Performance about head to chest height. Chest height is also prone to CH-S. If I can time it right, I can Tatami-dodge her aerial overdrive but its risky so i rather block. Tatami in any case is great help in launching her some aerial damage, but I can't think of anything else. 2HS also works like a charm in a lot of cases that I've played.

[rtl42]

what does "tatami-dodge her aerial overdrive" mean? (wouldn't you get counterhit by her aerial overdrive?)

[Hi-C]

Well, I was playing around against AI I-No and went to do a Tatami ground mat. Now, I had messed up and missed her. In the time I inputted the commands then the animation started, the CP had begun I-No's forward floating dash. She launched the aerial overdrive at the peak of the dash (right before she falls). I was a little to the right beneath her and my tatami was in its ending animations. The wave went right through me. No damage, no pushback, no nothing. The CPU simply fell, wasted 50% Tension. I still spazzed anyways and lost. But that is what i mean. It's pretty much luck, but I've done it two more times since. I don't know if I had some sort of invincibility at that moment, or because my mat blocked it or what.

I would post a video or photo, but I don't have the materials appropriate for said things.

[ghost333]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsHd-R0bDhs

check the first one plz :P

[hellmonkey..]

The best is yet to come.

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took so much but i keep on backing

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pwned by Ryu and shit outta luck

what can I say?

I just suck.

[bucklemyshoe]

Anyone have good tips against I-No? I CH-Anchor when she tries a Sultry Performance about head to chest height. Chest height is also prone to CH-S. If I can time it right, I can Tatami-dodge her aerial overdrive but its risky so i rather block. Tatami in any case is great help in launching her some aerial damage, but I can't think of anything else. 2HS also works like a charm in a lot of cases that I've played.

Well keep in mind that CPU I-No plays NOTHING like a real I-No. I know that I personally use a lot of strategy against Baiken because her on guard moves can really f*** me over if I follow my standard format. I still use notes the same way as I normally do for oki but instead of dashing in for a mixup if they decide to block I usually hover dash past and reverse airdash. Depending how far past I go it can become a cross up. I also tend to delay a lot of my attacks. An aggressive Baiken is easy to deal with but a defensive one is a challenge. If I am forced to approach from the front, a wiffed JH works wonders so you should probably take some time to be able to learn the difference in animations. Baiken has one of the more combo-able hitboxes for I-No. Sorry I can't offer any advice from the Baiken side (JD FRC Dash combos = revenge!) but hopefully you can take something from the insight of the I-No side.

[tolore]

So lets talk some jam and pot(mainly because my evo bracket has justin wong and flash metroid in it ).

Pot I generally try and stay away from him and zone with tatami/j.s, I try and stay at a range where I can punish random slide heads but far enough away that he can't hammer fall break pot buster me. Any IAD'ing that's not in reaction to random slide head is basically suicide because his forward punch is so godly(although from far enough distances j.s can clash/beat it). Chain seems kinda good kinda bad in this matchup, too close and you have to worry about pot buster(although chain->6K might be good pressure?). He might also be able to slide head chain on reaction. As for stopping meaty slide head our only option is basically super on reaction, or backdash. Other than that I just block low and occasionally get wrecked by whiff busters because i NEVER see it coming.

Any more info(or any corrections) are more than welcome!

Jam I have basically no experience with which is unfortunate, the only ones i've had even someone consistent play with is digital watches(not NEARLY as good as his axel), and bluewindz(i believe he was severely out of practice because of blaz blue when I was playing him). A couple things, her air moves and anti airs are very strong(2.s i think beats out a lot of baikens air moves) so jumping can be pretty dangerous, and obviously getting hit is BAD since she puts out slayer/may level damage. Chain can get force break puff ball'd on reaction into death I believe. meaty tatami mats and yozansens can get parried, although I think they are still useful. So what's good to poke with in this matchup, 2.s? 2.d? well spaces j.s? j.d I remember being a vaguely useful poke in this matchup. On the plus side jam dies pretty fast if you do get her.

[Vyers]

Not sure how good my advice is since I'm no top player, but some of it might be useful.

Against Potemkin I jump around a lot throwing out j.D followed up with AD j.D, AD j.SD, dashing tatami, AD j.H, or empty jump. Mixing these up will make Potemkin leery of coming after you, and help avoid slide head into otg heat knuckle combo. Poking with j.D max range seems safe against most of Potemkin's moves, the obvious exception is Hammerfall (super armor eats the j.D and second hit connects). AD j.SD will beat out Hammerfall, but you have to get closer for the j.D to combo, so this doesn't work against some moves. AD tatami is a little riskier they seem to see it coming more often then TK IAD tatami. AD j.H will net you great damage, but it gets riskier the closer you are to the ground (If you use it at the max height it can connect, it should clash with 6P, but you won't get that high using it as a J.D AD followup) Use it as j.D follow up sparingly or not at all. Empty jump will keep Pot guessing maybe bait out a Hammerfall.

Kabari well get you potemkin bustered on block guaranteed, unless you use it from max range.

To avoid slide head you can 1 frame jump as well, but I find that trickier to pull off than a back dash.

The timing is tight, but you can counter his j.D with Youshijin or Baku. If you're late with Youshijin it will whiff/ get blocked which leaves you open to potemkin buster so I recommend Baku.

I know less about Jam.

6K is your best poke it beats out lots of Jam's normals. 2S works at long range, if it's in range of Jam's 2S that beats it out clean.(6K will work against Jam's 2S). 2D doesn't work out well Jam's 2S and 2D beat it out. In the air J.S/j.D/j.H seem to work okay.

Remember to faultless defense in the air or you'll get puffball looped for 80%

Counters are risky if you don't get a counter hit you die. Don't use Youshijin. Sakura works on blocked 6H, 2H, on blocked 5H Jam actually ducks below the hit box, it won't connect. Baku works on blocked 5H, 6H, j.H, j.D, 2H. Other normals are either impossible or very hard to land counter hits against

[tolore]

Against Potemkin I jump around a lot throwing out j.D followed up with AD j.D, AD j.SD, dashing tatami, AD j.H, or empty jump.

assuming you mean j.d->fall a bit->j.sd/tatami/empty jump, the only problem with that is pot's GODLY forward punch that leads to damage and point blank knock down on hit, or leaves you right next to him on block with him ready to go, either way is a bad bad situation.

I believe if the potemkin times it right you cannot one frame jump on wake up.

Most good pots don't use his jump D too much, it's not all that great of a move, especially ones who know the baiken matchup because of the counters you mentioned, unless they like spikes up the butt .

Thanks for the help so far!

[Hi-C]

You know this makes me wonder, but why doesn't Baiken have her own match-up thread?

[Yurlungur]

I noticed something pretty painful and I was wondering everyone's input on it.

Kabari, my favorite little claw, gets me knocked the F' out against Faust. YOU SHOULD NEVER TRY TO KABARI A GOOD FAUST. (It's a fact, believe me)

I just don't know how useful Kabari is against other chars. It tends to work against Zappa but I have no one else to try it against (I only get to play Faust and Zappa). I noticed SH_ Doesn't use Kabari near as much as I do, and I wanna know if there's anything better I could use.

I generally do Kabari if my combos don't land, if someone blocks 2k, I do: 2k>5s>5hs>Kabari

Then poke with 2k or 2s

[tolore]

don't use kabari against axl or testament either, if they are paying attention th ey can counter it on reaction.As far as keeping the pressure on you can also end strings in tatami mat and blue roman it.

[SH_]

the main reason I don't use a lot of the chain is in the very nature of the move and peoples capacity to beat it, it's good but it's bad if that makes sense, for instance, against zappa with sword that one day we were playin in the hotel room, remember how I clashed it with every sword move on reaction, that wasn't on accident, it has madd clashability so it's basically giving your opponent free meter if they can see it like that, against faust he crouch walks, and f.S for free, against anyone with a counter, the counter is coming, against Anji, HS fuujin eats it like pudding at an elementary school, he'd have to time it TERRIBLY to not win for free, if it does connect, unless your are situationally well set up, and well off with the meter, you mine as well just get to a point where you just try and make your initial attack string game better, cause if you are having to do it at the end of chains, that means you probably weren't getting the hits in in the first place (save bad hit confirming), it does have it's uses mind you, and most of those are self explanatory, it's just a very dangerous move because if anyone is at a certain range and notice the startup, they will AD eat you for free before the tetsuzansens invulnerability can kick in (sorry bout the wall O text, but you asked, I figured I'd answer)

[Hellmonkey]

I was in japan for a few weeks and got a decent amount of exp against really strong players, if anyone wants my findings for any matchups feel free to ask... I wish more people still played like japan :[

[rtl42]

baiken vs slayer plz.

how do you start this fight?

how do you survive? (what are good attacks to keep him at bay?)

is there a way to get in on him safely? how?

oh and that reminds me ( ), how do you get out of stagger quickly? does hitting buttons have any effect, or does it only depend on wiggling the stick?

[Hi-C]

I'm all ears to hearing this. I'm trying to up my Baiken but I'm stuck training scrubs on my dorm floor. Its not fun to beat around a guy using only Sakura for every move.

[Hellmonkey]

baiken vs slayer plz.

how do you start this fight?

how do you survive? (what are good attacks to keep him at bay?)

is there a way to get in on him safely? how?

oh and that reminds me ( ), how do you get out of stagger quickly? does hitting buttons have any effect, or does it only depend on wiggling the stick?

only wiggling the joystick recovers from stagger, buttons only also help with dizzy

I actually played a significant amount against Slayer, and the way you approach the fight will depend a lot on how the Slayer does.

You have to recognize that eating almost any hit means 40%+ of your lifebar, so you have to either deal with a rushdown slayer by zoning and running away quickly and safely, or have the most cautious rushdown as possible against more turtly ones.

You WILL lose trying to jump in on Slayer, so only iad tatami or iad j.s if you see him doing something that allows you to. Lots of 2H and 2S for poking, since he is fairly limited on range and both of those shut him down well. Make sure you take every knockdown you can (5s to j.d against standing is mandatory), and watch how he tries to escape pressure because if the Slayer is good with BDC jump make sure you're airthrowing him every time he does it(into dustloop when near enough to the corner.)

j.D is a great poke against him, but make sure he won't get under you or it will hurt.

Because of BDC jump and 2P, it will be hard to apply much pressure, but mix up with throwing (make sure you are using option select, PKS can all be good for it) and an earlier 6K to get counterhits. You HAVE to beat him out in airthrowing or the match is lost and he can walk all over you. Try to use as few counters as possible when escaping his pressure, since you will take a ridiculous amount of damage if he reads it. Keep counters buffered almost all the time and react to 6k/j.h etc with it every time. Once the player is conditioned to use 2k/2d/throw make good use of 1f jump to escape.

How I start a fight depends completely on who I'm playing and how I feel at the time, but it's usually just jumping back or blocking and seeing what he does. Better Slayers abuse his ridiculous risk/reward all the time, so taking safer options and keeping him impatient is the best approach imo. Don't forget to watch for DoT when he gets 50% (especially 75%), you can die instantly to it.

[stinkymonz]

Baiken vs. I-No and Baiken vs. Millia would be awesome, if only so I'd know how to make yours and other Baikens' lives a bit harder.

[rtl42]

could you explain a bit about using 2H for poking? i only thought of it as making 6K "safe" (via the 6K-2H gatling), not as a stand-alone poke.

for 2S, wouldn't Slayer use 2K or 5K to counter that, since they're both faster? (or can you hit with 2S outside of 2K's and 5K's range?)

if you are not on top of Slayer, then where is a safe place to be? (pending on his playstyle, as you mentioned)

like did you find yourself hovering half a screen away from him, waiting for him to throw something out or move forward? or did you kinda gravitate to a certain "sweet spot" in range for something like 2S? or kinda oscillate between a few areas?

i'm asking because one glaring fault in my ability to fight Slayer is not knowing where's a safe place to be, at neutral, and how to stay out of danger until he makes a mistake or i decide to attack.

so like, even if you didn't have a particular zone that you frequented (e.g. constantly running around, or something), that's good for me to know, just to get some idea about how to think about my movement, in this matchup.

[Hellmonkey]

could you explain a bit about using 2H for poking? i only thought of it as making 6K "safe" (via the 6K-2H gatling), not as a stand-alone poke.

It's great after 6K because it jacks guard gauge, but it's not really needed to make 6K safe, 6K by itself is plus frames and is better used to keep pressure actually than following with 2H. I hadn't been using 2H much outside of pressure but I saw maruken using it a surprising amount and started to some myself, just use it from mid-range so anything they throw out will catch it, it has huge startup but normal recovery

for 2S, wouldn't Slayer use 2K or 5K to counter that, since they're both faster? (or can you hit with 2S outside of 2K's and 5K's range?)

2S loses to 5K if you start up around the same time, you can only beat it if you catch his startup. use 2H, kabari, 6K if he's using 5K a lot. (6K will counterhit it everytime if you start up beforehand, if you startup around the same time it will clash or trade) (note: from 6K counterhit use kabari, tetsuzansen FRC -> j.D FRC if you have it and bring him to the corner for loop, otherwise take your tension and knockdown from tetsuzansen->j.SD or j.D) Feel free to buffer counters at the edge of 5K range and react to blocking it with ouren for a free knockdown.

The best Slayer can hope for with 2K against all of the above is a whiff, he will never hit with it at that range.

The real move to worry about at this range is 2H btw, which I haven't talked about yet. It beats basically all of the above (except kabari or 2H from far enough away, you can use 2H where it will CH a 5K but not get hit by 2H), and whether he's using it or not should change whether you're playing at this range or much further away. You can beat it by jumping when he does it and j.H or iad tatami in if it's from slightly further away, it will obviously lose to throwing or 5P if you're close enough, but in general it is the reason you cannot stay close to him on the ground. Baiken 5H is actually great to CH 2H with if you think he'll throw it out.

if you are not on top of Slayer, then where is a safe place to be? (pending on his playstyle, as you mentioned)

like did you find yourself hovering half a screen away from him, waiting for him to throw something out or move forward? or did you kinda gravitate to a certain "sweet spot" in range for something like 2S? or kinda oscillate between a few areas?

i'm asking because one glaring fault in my ability to fight Slayer is not knowing where's a safe place to be, at neutral, and how to stay out of danger until he makes a mistake or i decide to attack.

so like, even if you didn't have a particular zone that you frequented (e.g. constantly running around, or something), that's good for me to know, just to get some idea about how to think about my movement, in this matchup.

You want to sit just outside his 5K range, sometimes even further, and what you do from there really depends on how the Slayer plays. If the Slayer jumps a lot, try not to poke out too much with 2s/2h, use more iad back tatami or react to what he does with airthrow(j.P option select it), 6P (watch out for j.H if you choose to use this). If you run up and throw him, use the slight invincibility on her dash-stop to help grab him (don't FD break it when you go for a throw, but make sure you option select your throw since either HS is terrible in that range) It is also good to feign a similar attempt but FD brake it early and poke out or just block, like I mentioned earlier it's all about making the Slayer impatient and forcing him to take risks since trading hits/combos will make you die quickly.

The more the Slayer turtles, the more you should try to just build meter at range. If the Slayer likes throwing out random K mappa IB punish (note: do a short run, FD brake it and throw (let go of your FD immediately and 4H like a kara) or 5P 5S j.D to punish) or throw out early tatamis to catch it. Aside from that (and DoT) there isn't much to worry about at mid-range.

[rtl42]

thanks a bunch, i'll digest this info and try it out when i get the chance. strange that i never even noticed the frame advantage on 6K, thanks for pointing that out, too.

[Hellmonkey]

make sure you're maxing out your damage against him too, like getting the extra j.D in corner throw>tatami>sj.PSD>(earliest)S(slight delay)D>j.D

off of 2k c.5s j.d you can FRC iad tatami and dustloop if you're in corner by then or iad j.SD for some extra damage too. If you have the tension blow it on your damage while you have the chance, you can always build up more meter later and your chances to use it on youzansen mixup are limited.

[Shinjin]

(note: from 6K counterhit use kabari, tetsuzansen FRC -> j.D FRC if you have it and bring him to the corner for loop, otherwise take your tension and knockdown from tetsuzansen->j.SD or j.D)

only time you ever want to do tetsuzansen frc in a combo is if you want to make it burstproof.

Dont waste that tension. you also get more damage without the frc. and if you are close enough (which you should be after 6K counterhit into kabari) you should do Tetsuzansen 2D hj jS jD.

[Hellmonkey]

you won't be close enough after the 6K CH from any mid-range distance (which is what i was referring to, as in standing outside his 5K hitbox), if you're that close in you can just tatami FRC or even 5HS tatami FRC and get a ton more damage if you have the tension. If you're at a range you have to kabari in the first place the best tensionless you can do is usually a j.D after tetsu.