[CT+CS1] Noel vs. Ragna

[Wutai_Shinobi]

The guy I'm mentioning was just being a jerk since he beat me quite handily the first two matches lol... >.<;;

[Hellmonkey]

Opps, I don't think they can punish easy if they Barrier, that is. You'll be pushed out quite a bit. Even so, there are characters that can punish even if they barrier, like Litchi.

Besides if you are mixing it up a lot, they would not be expecting it (like if you jump canceling 5C or using 2D after 2C)

Barrier adds one more frame of block stun, and pushes slightly further. They still have 17 frames to run up and hit you. I'd be surprised if there is a character that can't punish it. Not that they should be FDing it in the first place.

[Kronikhall]

I got wrecked by pretty much every Ragna I came across today. What moves are safe to poke him with (if there are any)? He has an amazing reach on both his 5B and his 5C. And what're my options for punishing the Hell's Fang, assuming Ragna doesn't follow it up?

[ShinobiBrown]

It seems every time I fight a decent Ragna my brain melts as all my normals that aren't 5A or 6A get beat out. Ran into one online today while playing player matches to kill some boredom. We went back and forth and the matches were close, but he wrecked me none the less. Ragna: "You're running at me? 5B, GTFO. Lol, you trying to 3C under what you thought was going to be another 5B? Eat 5C CH. IAD? Meet 6A. Block string hole? SHORYU...errr yeah. You in the corner, I have meter, and you don't? Lol, hope you know how and when to IB. Otherwise, time to pop that cherry and finish you off." From my experience, Ragna has plenty of ways to keep Noel honest in her rushdown with his DP and superior range. So much so that you really can't rush him down as well as he can rush you down, IMO. I find this match up just deals a lot with just baiting moves out from Ragna for him to fuck up so you can start your offense and/or do some damage. If you bait out and block a ID and the Ragna has no meter to RC it, for all that is holy punish with CH 6C > 5D > 6C > 214A > 2B> 6C > j.B > j.C > j.236C. That's 4k+ worth of damage off one punishment and considering Ragna's low health, that hurts like a bitch for him. 6A > [6C > BC loop] > Drive Juggle is another punishment option but it's not nearly as damaging. However, I do find it somewhat a bit easier to land in most situations. My main issue with this match-up is getting out of pressure once I'm in it. I block but all that leads to is getting guard crushed or draining barrier so I'm in danger. I need to practice IBing and learn when to IB at the right times. I can't handle that rushdown for shit once I'm in it. Does she have any option out of it other than counter assaulting? EDIT: @Kronikhall: Punishing Hells Fang when Ragna doesn't do the follow up is risky because it's a frame trap for his DP. Thus, he can keep you honest in attempting to punish him for doing it. I'd say either just back dash if you IB'd the first hit or just continue blocking. If you notice him just outright using it as a scare tactic and never IDing after doing it, then I suppose you can punish him for it with 5A > 6A > [6C BC] loop > Drive Juggle or 6C > 2C > 236236D if you have the meter and think it will kill him.

[Senovit]

Theory fightan time. IB'ing the first hit of Hell's fang and then following up with a 6C/5A should not give him enough time for inferno divider. He can still probably hit you if he does the followup immediately instead of recovering and then ID'ing.

[Doom Dragon 103]

I find 5B to help alot in this matchup since its arguable Noels most rangey normal it helps a bit with spacing. Try and not get in a corner since Ragna can corner rape Noel bad. If ragna has meter well sucks for you if he is on approach, try and sneak in a 5D for the CH then do 5C 6C 214A then to a 6C combo

[dragontamer]

If you are outside the range of an "immediate" hit from his super, you can super-flash buffer 5D for the counter-hit into 5D (CH) -> 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> etc. etc.

[madaxe_munkee]

I like punishing Hells Fang and Carnage Scissors with 5D. I bait them just by keeping my distance.

If you're playing a pro Ragna, his wakeup game is probably too good for you, so it's better to knock him down, and then keep your distance or stand over him just a little bit away and guard. Inferno Divider is just too good as a wakeup move. He'll also try to cross you up with ground rolling. Sometimes he'll switch sides and then open with Inferno Divider (which is ass) so watch out for that.

If you're at midrange, bear in mind that Ragna most probably can still hit you. 2D is still a solid pressure option. 5D is good to phase through his attacks if you know what you're doing.

Solid Blood Kain combos are hell. If he goes into Blood Kain and knows how to combo, Burst as soon as he's close enough for you to know the burst will knock him away. Make sure not to burst while he's using Inferno Divider. If he lands the full thing on you, that could be 6k right there or more if he has additional tension (I mean heat...).

And that's about it.

[NoirMorpheus]

lose connection LOL

6C and 5A to start some type of combo then 5C, into drive I guess...

[hazelnutman]

4D while being hit by corner pressure for eventual command grab combo. The i-frames will save your ass.

A more general strategy is to rush down on a fallen Ragna bait an Inferno Divider on wake-up, which can easily be punished by the good ol' 3C. I actually let them punish my 3C or 6B upon wake-up Inferno Divider a few times at the start of the match to really mess them up when I start to block them (mind-games). Once they start to catch on, do a few mix-ups upon a downed Ragna, or just a grab now and then to shake things up.

Jumping in the corner isn't such a good idea though seeing as one of his Drive moves (forgot which one, I think it's the 6D input) can easily catch you in the air.

I find his hitbox big enough for a lot of advanced Gold Burst combos too.

[Shieru-sensei]

CH 5C -> 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> 6A -> 6C -> 236D or 632146D if 50 heat are aviable. Saved my ass many times against my special-happy friend today.

[Mizzet]

5d 6a 6c 6a 6c 236d actually does less damage overall than 5d 6a 6c 236d, because of same move proration. Also why 236d after 6c when you can continue the combo with 214a? If you CH 5d you can get 4.4k'ish if you do it right. Bait an id and he loses half his health.

If the Ragna likes to do random hell's fangs' to get in range, keeping away and tagging him with 5c as he recovers is an option, it will counterhit and you can go into 5d/3c. If they do the hell's fang followup and you block it, you can punish with CH 5c even on normal block, that move is terrible for Ragna on block - good Ragna's will stop after the first hit which leaves him at something like -4 only.

Know what Ragna's high low options are at different points in his blockstring, he has numerous options at any one point and that's one reason his offense is so scary. Typically they end blockstrings with 2d (hits low) and Gauntlet Hades (hits high). 2d nets him more damage if it hits you and it's harder to block on reaction, so block low and guard high on reaction if you see something coming.

For jump in j.c, I don't really recommend trying to AA it, j.c's range is ginormous. Instead I slide through with 5d, on hit, go into a drive combo; On block, get out of drive with something like d.5b or 4d.

Noel's 5c is good for spacing (though not as good as Ragna's 5b) and fishing for counterhits.

[DC]

2d is punishable on instant block, guantlet hades is punishable on any block. Personally I don't like trying to space out 5c hits because his 5b shuts it the fuck up. 6/4 like most other matchups. He has an easy time outspacing Noel on the ground and wrecks her shit in the air (like most characters). Also most (all?) of his blockstrings lead into some guard primer breaking move, 2d, GH or Dead Spike so watch your bursts and last primer.

I do noticed that a lot of Ragnas like to do Hell's Fang + follow up if they have 50 meter to rapid cancel, so if you ever think he's gonna do that, counter assault the first hit of Hell's Fang for a free 3c punish. Fun stuff.

Don't know what else to tell ya guys, I thought it was in his favor in CT and it's only gotten worse. :p

[dragontamer]

2d is punishable on instant block, guantlet hades is punishable on any block. Personally I don't like trying to space out 5c hits because his 5b shuts it the fuck up. 6/4 like most other matchups. He has an easy time outspacing Noel on the ground and wrecks her shit in the air (like most characters). Also most (all?) of his blockstrings lead into some guard primer breaking move, 2d, GH or Dead Spike so watch your bursts and last primer.

Gauntlet Hades and 2D seem slow enough that I can 2D / 4D on reaction (when I'm on my game). Its a matter of recognizing the attack, blocking correctly, and then mashing D while blocking correctly :-). 2D beats the low, 4D beats the high. Both 2D and 4D are invincible on frame one to their respective attack. Dead Spike can be 5Ded when I'm on my game as well. I don't think that the better Ragnas are gonig to do those attacks very often...

BTW: everyone outzones Noel. You gotta get used to the fact that Bolverk is part of Noel's body... if Bolverk feels pain so does Noel. IE: the very tips of 5C and 5B can still hurt Noel, which is why people like Makoto can lol outzone Noel. (Makoto's and Bang's 5A will counter-hit 5C without Makoto/Bang taking damage).

Fortunately, thats the issue with Ragna's jesus kick as well. It may have huge range, but the tips of Ragna's feet are vulnerable. Its what makes 4D so easy to use against it.

[Shieru-sensei]

5d 6a 6c 6a 6c 236d actually does less damage overall than 5d 6a 6c 236d, because of same move proration. Also why 236d after 6c when you can continue the combo with 214a? If you CH 5d you can get 4.4k'ish if you do it right. Bait an id and he loses half his health.

How do you 4.4K out of this? I augmented the combo to 5D 6A 6C 6B 6A 224A 2B, does 2795 damage. The same damage I get(!) if I start the combo with CH 5C.

On the other hand, 5D 6A 6C 6B 6A 643246D does 2970, with CH 5C it does 2921, which is somehow less(!)

[Mizzet]

For counterhit 5d

CH 5d 6c 6d 2d 623d 66c j.d 5d 5c 6b 236d [4363]

[Shieru-sensei]

How do I link 623d to 66c? I don't even get where the spot to input the move is SUPPOSED to be...

[dragontamer]

623D -> land -> 66 -> 6C.

The timing from d.6D -> d.2D -> 623D is pretty easy IMO. Its the d.5D -> 623D -> 66C link thats difficult.

[Runis]

How do you 4.4K out of this? I augmented the combo to 5D 6A 6C 6B 6A 224A 2B, does 2795 damage. The same damage I get(!) if I start the combo with CH 5C.

On the other hand, 5D 6A 6C 6B 6A 643246D does 2970, with CH 5C it does 2921, which is somehow less(!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEMEBQSWVs

All out of CH 5D.

As for CH 5C you're better off just doing CH 5C 5D 6A 6C 5C 2147A 2B 6C jc j.D 6D 236D for about 3K if you feel safe with drives or CH5C 3C haida loop combos if you can do those for about 4k+

Also Mizzet, wouldn't it do more damage if you cut the second 5D and 623D and instead just did 5C 6B 236D? you don't lose 65% proration for the last part that way.

[Mizzet]

The 2nd 5d counts as a mid drive 5d while the 5d that starts it is a starter 5d, from the perspective of the game they are 'different' moves so same move proration doesn't apply. If you take a look at the frame data page for Noel, they're listed seperately as 5d (starter) and 5d (follow-up).

Also a bonus is that if you wanted to combo into Fenrir from that, you can change it up to 5d 6b 5c j.d Fenrir with no wastage of moves. Without the 5d, just doing 6b 5c won't cut it because 6b is too slow and j.d's hitstun won't hold, you would have to omit the 6b and just do j.d 5c j.d Fenrir.

[Runis]

Hmm, I guess so. Never thought of mid drive 5D being different to starter 5D tbh. I might play around with that a little bit then.

[Konton]

hatahatehatehate ragna