[CS1] Rachel Info and Discussion

[God_Of_Olympus]

i dont know how you'd get someone to get hit non-counter, i'd personally like a few less recovery frames over combo on NH, or maybe even.....to be completely safe....>.>

[Tari]

This is pretty random, but I just realized that Rachel loses her crossup in CS. I don't use it much, so it's not a huge loss, but it's still worth noting. >< Unless there's a crossup that doesn't involve j.2c that I don't know about?

[Skye]

Just asking, do you all think there was any way to nerf Rachel without destroying her playstyle? Excluding Damage and HP?

[Tari]

Just asking, do you all think there was any way to nerf Rachel without destroying her playstyle?

Excluding Damage and HP?

Well, her playstyle hasn't changed too drastically, really, so I'd say 'yes.'

We lost some of her more crazy air juggles (j.2c->j.c, oh how I'll miss you) and her easy mixups, but that's about it.

Lost the easy 6B CH and pumpkin flight distance/hitstun, as well.

Of all those, the only one that really confuses me is the pumpkin, but meh.

I don't actually consider the nerf on George to be much of a nerf. The amount that he prorates things is absurb, mind you, but a slower movement isn't any trouble, nor is the fact that we can wind him around, now.

Not sure the 2 second timer will allow for extended corner pressure the way I do it now, but we'll see.

The loss of easy mixups and her crossup will change how she plays her rushdowns, but that's about it. Her lightning pole zoning got a bit stronger, she has a reversal (super, still waiting to see if people will use it a lot or not), and her aerial BBL is apparently more viable than it was before.

I'm wondering if the aerial BBL can be comboed off of 6c9d (or 8d) j.c JC j.c, now, in fact.

[gasconron]

Lost the easy 6B CH and pumpkin flight distance/hitstun, as well.

The loss of easy mixups and her crossup will change how she plays her rushdowns, but that's about it. Her lightning pole zoning got a bit stronger, she has a reversal (super, still waiting to see if people will use it a lot or not), and her aerial BBL is apparently more viable than it was before.

meh, the 6B CH was the only thing Rachel had going for her to scare people away from carelessly rushing her down. She had little to no defensive options before in BB:CT, and the looming threat of being CH'd into a devastating combo was the only thing that made Ragnas, Jins and Noels careful around you. - - this is really the one of the nerfs that I hated

note that her projectiles will cancel out when hit, another reduction her "defense factor"

Rachel IMO, at least in the way I used her, was a rushdown / combo reset mixup chara. By making her game weaker in this aspect and made her zoning stronger, means that her play style is drastically changed.

IMHO, reducing the damage done by combos + a slower wind regen would have been enough. EDIT: okay maybe, weakening her corner trapping potential, so I guess the 1 george at a time idea, was fair...

[Tari]

meh, the 6B CH was the only thing Rachel had going for her to scare people away from carelessly rushing her down. She had little to no defensive options before in BB:CT, and the looming threat of being CH'd into a devastating combo was the only thing that made Ragnas, Jins and Noels careful around you. - - this is really the one of the nerfs that I hated

note that her projectiles will cancel out when hit, another reduction her "defense factor"

Rachel IMO, at least in the way I used her, was a rushdown / combo reset mixup chara. By making her game weaker in this aspect and made her zoning stronger, means that her play style is drastically changed.

IMHO, reducing the damage done by combos + a slower wind regen would have been enough. EDIT: okay maybe, weakening her corner trapping potential, so I guess the 1 george at a time idea, was fair...

Her 6b CH still exists, it's just far, far harder to combo off of. Using it to stop rush momentum and begin your own pressure is still possible.

Her projectiles vanish on hit, this is true. Other than trading counterhits with other projectiles, though, how often does it matter that your bat seed vanishes? If it lands, it won't disappear, if it's in the air, it will. Not a big loss. The only times that really came in handy for me were for stopping Bang's Rain of Nails (doesn't matter in the new game), counter-hitting Jin's ice, and knocking myself free from grabs (236c4d, sorta gimmicky, anyway).

The hit/blockstun and range nerf on the pumpkin is more irritating than that.

You can still initiate a rushdown with the new Rachel. She's not as overpowering as her CT counterpart, but she can still do it. Her primary losses (disregarding the 6b CH) are in mixup/crossup and aerial shenanigans, as well as extended corner pressure via George, thanks to the frog timer.

Some previously impossible things (possibly 5cdc 214a 3c236a 5b JC j.c JC j.c j.214c [aerial sword iris] or even JC j.c JC j.2c j.214c) are now possible, as well.

Will they make up for her losses? Not really, but at least she's not a character who can't rushdown at all. If they'd turned her into a Tager, I'd just go play Tager. :8/:

[Kuuhaku]

I think for me the worst part is her ability to guard crush vs. being guard crushed. Rachel can't guard crush for beans now (Tager's like lol guard crush). But thanks to her only having four guard primers, other characters sure can. I dunno. Other characters got buffs and nerfs that make them overall more solid. Rachel just doesn't seem very solid at all (and from nOtoko's information, it seems I'm not alone in that). But I guess that's what picking sub characters is for. It's going to be sad, but we'll see a lot less of our favorite loli in the competitive scene. From what I've heard a lot of Rachel players are switching characters. At least she still has 6A. If that got nerfed too then she'd really be unplayable.

[Tari]

I think for me the worst part is her ability to guard crush vs. being guard crushed. Rachel can't guard crush for beans now (Tager's like lol guard crush). But thanks to her only having four guard primers, other characters sure can.

I dunno. Other characters got buffs and nerfs that make them overall more solid. Rachel just doesn't seem very solid at all (and from nOtoko's information, it seems I'm not alone in that). But I guess that's what picking sub characters is for. It's going to be sad, but we'll see a lot less of our favorite loli in the competitive scene. From what I've heard a lot of Rachel players are switching characters.

At least she still has 6A. If that got nerfed too then she'd really be unplayable.

And yeah, she's not quite as solid as some of the other characters, but... look on the bright side! We didn't get nerfed as badly as Noel. xD

[killionaire]

And yeah, she's not quite as solid as some of the other characters, but... look on the bright side! We didn't get nerfed as badly as Noel. xD

You both know that's not saying a whole lot.

It's like saying that we should be happy because we got an leg amputated instead of losing all nerve connections from the waist down..

Yeah. Sorry for killing the mood.

And yes. At least she has the 6A, and the very versatile 5B. Let's not forget our essential combo starter.

[Konton]

And yeah, she's not quite as solid as some of the other characters, but... look on the bright side! We didn't get nerfed as badly as Noel. xD

Rachel got it way worse than Noel. Chain Revolver is FAST now.

Noel has been reworked and given brand new tools. Rachel... just lost everything and gained air iris.

[terranrox]

Rachel got it way worse than Noel. Chain Revolver is FAST now.

Noel has been reworked and given brand new tools. Rachel... just lost everything and gained air iris.

I think this is one of those moments where... all of a sudden I lost faith in my character...

[Konton]

Haha, well... the game comes out in nine days. So we'll have a more solid grasp on if Rachel will be trash or not.

[ArkiveZero]

rachel is like the only character other than kyo kusanagi that i've picked without consulting a tier list first that ended up being top tier. now she's been nerfed to hell and i'm back to bottom tier mains, god hates me lol.

[Kuuhaku]

Actually, I think it's my fault. Every time I pick a character in anything, it always gets nerfed to hell. My bad, guys. First RO Wizard, now it's my favorite loli.

[DC]

We didn't get nerfed as badly as Noel. xD

Joke post? Rachel got wrecked. Noel lost her bnb and gained a new one? She's still the same flatchested rushdown character I love.<3

Bouncing people off my guns... sure I'll miss that, but bouncing people around off the ground, with chain revolver... that should make up for it a bit.

[Skye]

Rachel did get it bad. Like really bad..... Noel got some things going for her, similar to Arakune, raped the old playstyle, made a new one. Being an Arakune player, it hurts to see a lot of his staples, nerfed to uselessness. I knew everyone hated dive, but now it's unusable--even in combos. 2B is useless, and although our precurse pressure is still piss-weak, we now get benefits even on block, we have a precurse corner loop, cloud buff and new bugs and drive altogether, we'll manage, our biggest issue is damage, our new meterless damage made us the Bang of CS. But again, we'll manage. Noel got a similar treatment, but since I don't play her, I can't go into as much detail. Rachels won't need to "manage" they'll need to "improvise".

[Tari]

Joke post? Rachel got wrecked. Noel lost her bnb and gained a new one? She's still the same flatchested rushdown character I love.<3

Bouncing people off my guns... sure I'll miss that, but bouncing people around off the ground, with chain revolver... that should make up for it a bit.

Was referencing the first loketest, but meh. Should've checked up on that stuff more thoroughly before making any comments. xD;;

I'll just blame that on the fact that I hadn't (and haven't, though am about to) slept yet.

Rachel did get it bad.

Like really bad.....

Noel got some things going for her, similar to Arakune, raped the old playstyle, made a new one.

Being an Arakune player, it hurts to see a lot of his staples, nerfed to uselessness. I knew everyone hated dive, but now it's unusable--even in combos. 2B is useless, and although our precurse pressure is still piss-weak, we now get benefits even on block, we have a precurse corner loop, cloud buff and new bugs and drive altogether, we'll manage, our biggest issue is damage, our new meterless damage made us the Bang of CS. But again, we'll manage.

Noel got a similar treatment, but since I don't play her, I can't go into as much detail.

Rachels won't need to "manage" they'll need to "improvise".

We'll figure something out, I'm sure. :8/:

[RinenganSuicide]

Ya kno, this sucks because I just started to get use to Rachel's playing style. Now I'm forced to learn all over again. Seriously, everyone knows Nu can win without moving from where she is. I mean she has every opportunity to catch you off guard easily without trying. Couldn't they just change Nu's drive or something, Lamda is a suppose to be a knockoff of the real thing. Us low tier players normally have to work harder to perfect our fighting style against higher tier characters. One thing for sure, high tier characters losing against low tier characters is an embarassment. Hopefully I can achieve this with Rachel. Haven't given up hope!

[BadenCalendula]

Rachel... just lost everything and gained air iris.

Yes...

My new Rachel keep away strategy...

236A lobelia spam

Air Iris

*Repeat*

Optional:

**Frog combo if they land in the corner**

Not as fun, but it should be irritating as hell to everyone else.

I hope they make adjustments for the console release...

[Kuuhaku]

So pretty much all of Rachel's matches in CS will look like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzHMejnOhg0

Well... at least it'll be entertaining. Don't forget 6A 6C 8D to also piss people off.

[BadenCalendula]

So in CS, j.2c can be canceled with a special right? (I think I saw vids of canceling with a lobelia.)

Couldn't 214C (Air Iris) be used to cancel it?

Even without any poles around for cover, the recovery is super fast in the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKSGaQRYhMw

@0:07 and 0:21

^^ It's barely noticeable, but you can see her hop and use Air Iris...

I'm reaching for any redeeming possibilities at this point...

[Kuuhaku]

That is a possibility. It might put some use into j2C. But... yeah, TK air iris looks like it's something that's going to be spammed a lot. ... Not that I can blame players as it's starting to look like that air iris traps into air combos (with a jC 2D jC juggle into BBL) is about all Rachel has now. Even George corner lock down doesn't look too good because George prorates so much you're better off going for a reset than a combo. And... is it me, or when George slides forward he actually needs a second to recover before he can activate? If so, that's probably the stupidest thing I've seen other than j2C not linking to anything but cat chair on hit (Congrats! You landed an overhead! Now you can... oh wait, you can't do anything). Even if you slide George forward someone can just IAD over him during his recovery.

[BadenCalendula]

And... is it me, or when George slides forward he actually needs a second to recover before he can activate?

Probably.

I noticed that after the slide, he doesn't start crawling again for a second.

He moves slower than a snail and should at least be able to hop.

[kro_]

I'm not certain on this, but since George doesn't hop in CS it looks like there will be no post-hop delay for him to activate. So for distances shorter than a hop, this George will actually activate faster.

And... is it me, or when George slides forward he actually needs a second to recover before he can activate? If so, that's probably the stupidest thing I've seen other than j2C not linking to anything but cat chair on hit (Congrats! You landed an overhead! Now you can... oh wait, you can't do anything). Even if you slide George forward someone can just IAD over him during his recovery.

If someone tries to IAD forward against wind they won't move very far. And if you know it's gonna happen then it's a free 6a.

Can you imagine how broken it would be if George activated instantly when you slide him forward with wind? I was surprised they even allowed you to wind George forward at all.

Being able to wind him at all is most certainly a buff. George not being able to hop actually keeps him closer to you for defensive purposes. Being able to wind him forward when you attack helps you offensively. The point is not to just use wind and throw him at opponents. That 1 wind should be moving a pumpkin as a shield, Rachel herself for the mixup, and George at the end to cover her. In theory, you should be able to use this to make your j.2c overhead/crossup safe or possibly start a combo.

Scenario 1:

wind pumpkin > dash > j.2c hits > 236a > frog activates > end combo

Scenario 2:

wind pumpkin > dash > j.2c gets blocked (breaks guard primer) > frog activates to keep opponent in block stun while you recover

But yeah, it's just theory fighter right now so we'll see. This is one of the first things I'm planning to test when the arcade gets CS. This and the viability of far j.3db and 4b as overheads.

[Skye]

Have you ever took the time to consider a turtling strategy, it might work. Get a point lead, then leave the rest to time.