GenoWhirl Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 ;-; I started maining Rachel like, 3 days ago, and even though I suck at her all these changes make me sadface ;-;
Lastblade Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Ok, so far this is what I've got. j.2C is only special cancelable on hit it seems, so if they block you make sure to wind yourself at the last second. I'm not sure if it's actually safe but so far no one has been able to hit me because of the hit stun. So maybe that'll be useful for getting out of trouble. This is funny though, j.2CD, rapid if it hits, 5B 5CDC, 236B, IAD, j.B, j.C, Air iris. So far, it looks like relearning her is the only option or atleast relearning a defensive game and applying it to previous tactics. Also, 5CC when the opponent is in the air and it hits, a Fatal counter may occur. Usually after a 2C CH, 2D, 5CC. If there is a pole on the other side of the screen, BBL or Sword iris works.
kro_ Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Not until you land. So opponent lands, gets up, and you have 2 primary options, 2c or 236a. That's a BAD situation for you. Regarding level 2 and 3 j.2c, they are still only special cancelable, and still only on landing. See my BB:CS combo thread for an application of this in BBCS. Couldn't you land and cancel into pumpkin summon? Or is that also so slow that she'll get punished by wake up DP?
Soniti Posted November 24, 2009 Author Posted November 24, 2009 I'm 95% sure you'd get punished. Not only do they recover before or at the same time you do, pumpkin summon takes more than than BBCT and has more recovery. Even if you somehow got a pumpkin out it disappears if you get hit so you can't even trade, you just get combod.
Lastblade Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 I'm 95% sure you'd get punished. Not only do they recover before or at the same time you do, pumpkin summon takes more than than BBCT and has more recovery. Even if you somehow got a pumpkin out it disappears if you get hit so you can't even trade, you just get combod. After trying it a few times, you've got roughly enough time to block or dash away. Quicker characters that I fought (Tsubaki, Ragna, and to an extent Hazama) recovered too quickly to get the pumpkin out and approach.
Shitty Vampire Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 ;-; I started maining Rachel like, 3 days ago, and even though I suck at her all these changes make me sadface ;-; Don't worry just stick with her. She may not be as powerful as she was in CT, but I'm sure in due time people will discover new great combos with her, or perhaps she might even get buffed in a future arcade update. Or she might end up embodying my name
Skye Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 I least she has combos.... says, ":vbang:" I'm being hopeful, but I can't tell if it's optimism or naivete. But in all honesty, Rachel turned out way better than most of you feared, right? I was certainly shocked at how well she can hold herself.
Soniti Posted November 24, 2009 Author Posted November 24, 2009 Rachel turned out about how I expected. Arakune, on the other hand, looks pretty strong and he has combos that do large amounts of curse meter. Let's not go into that in this thread though.
Tari Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 But in all honesty, Rachel turned out way better than most of you feared, right? I was certainly shocked at how well she can hold herself. Quite honestly, I was somewhat surprised by how much they'd nerfed her damage. It's not actually so much of a huge damage nerf, though, as it is a balance to overall character damage potentials (and a lowering of the average damage dealt in the game). Rachel just happened to be able to do too much damage in the first game, so it feels like a huge drop.
Kuuhaku Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 I really wonder though overall how she's going to keep up. Most of the cast can still do 4-5k damage easy. Rachel, on the other hand, has trouble breaking 3k (though I did see some combos that were like 3.1k, but I'm sure you get my point). Seems like overall she's going to be really heavily reliant on traps and set ups, but that's a little tough considering she can't zone well anymore. Skye- Actually, she's much worse than I expected. I honestly didn't expect them to break 6A CH and 6B period on top of nerfing the level 2 and 3 j2C as well. The 5C C wall bounce and cat chair link without CH were kinda ??? changes, but we'll see what she can do with them.
killionaire Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Quite honestly, I was somewhat surprised by how much they'd nerfed her damage. It's not actually so much of a huge damage nerf, though, as it is a balance to overall character damage potentials (and a lowering of the average damage dealt in the game). Rachel just happened to be able to do too much damage in the first game, so it feels like a huge drop. Biggest problem I'm expecting people to face at the moment is coping with the fact that quite a few of our moves that we used to quite liberally toss out are no longer safe. Not so much the damage... Although these damage values I'm seeing do seem to be a bit on the lower end... Although that brings up a question.. Is an average combo damage of about 2.5K (without meter use) standard with a number of the characters in CS? I noticed that CS Bang has a list of them that average about that much, but I'm not sure about anyone else. And of course, Ragna, Haku, and Tager are going to be throwing out more damage... Don't bother telling me about them...
Kuuhaku Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Taokaka can still do 4k easily, so can Ragna, Litchi, Hakumen, and Tager. Nu's output seems a little below 4k in most cases. Noel can break 4k on Rachel (this is all with no meter). Carl? I dunno, I haven't really looked at his damage output. Tsubaki seems a bit on the low side, but so far she's been fast enough to cope. Hazama is also on the low side, but he doesn't have Tsubaki's speed. The problem is Rachel does about 3k average with heat. :X I'm pretty sure so far she has the lowest damage output of any character in the game... except maaaaybe Hazama does lower? But Hazama's a new character so he has a lot more potential to grow.
killionaire Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Taokaka can still do 4k easily, so can Ragna, Litchi, Hakumen, and Tager. Nu's output seems a little below 4k in most cases. Noel can break 4k on Rachel. The problem is Rachel does about 3k average with heat. :X So you're saying the timeout wins may be occurring because our damage is so low that we can't ever seem to finish off our opponent within the time limit, especially considering how much more cautious we need to be in approaching our enemy?
Tari Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Biggest problem I'm expecting people to face at the moment is coping with the fact that quite a few of our moves that we used to quite liberally toss out are no longer safe. Not so much the damage... Although these damage values I'm seeing do seem to be a bit on the lower end... Although that brings up a question.. Is an average combo damage of about 2.5K (without meter use) standard with a number of the characters in CS? I noticed that CS Bang has a list of them that average about that much, but I'm not sure about anyone else. And of course, Ragna, Haku, and Tager are going to be throwing out more damage... Don't bother telling me about them... Bang's combos have always been on the lower end of the damage spectrum. He just throws them at you nonstop, so it's less of an issue for him. If his combos did the same 4-5k damage that other characters' combos did, he'd probably be one of the best characters in the game (and Dora would win every tournament). The problem I have with Rachel right now, aside from her oddly changed moveset (whee, time to relearn stuff), is how much every move prorates. Tacking a 2b onto the start of her >3k combo knocks it down to 2.1k. I mean, seriously? It never felt that bad before. Also, the cat chair having a wider hitbox is pretty awesome sounding, but I need to actually know how much wider we're talking about before I can say it's worth anything. If it's significantly larger, punishing Jin/Litchi/etc. will become a lot easier with it. Of course, comboing from a 2c hit that's outside of the range of 5b may be awkward, but we'll see.
Kuuhaku Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Yeah. Pretty much. Rachel's strategies so far have been hit, run, and stall for time. This could change if higher damage combos are found, but considering how bad Rachel prorates, it's not likely. Another bad thing as kro pointed out is most of her reliable combos now require her to spend all or part of that time in the air where she doesn't regen wind. Right now there is a 4.5k combo (I dunno if it's been confirmed yet), but it takes three winds to do... which... I don't really suggest unless you're sure it's going to kill them. The guard primer breaking moves are nice, but not really as effective as they could be because she has a hard time keeping up pressure. The primers actually recover decently fast once a character is no longer pressured, so you're only assured a guard break if you stay in their faces. At the same time I heard that guard break combos also prorate to hell, so it might not really be something worth investing your time into. But... for Rachel damage is damage and she needs all the damage she can get.
killionaire Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Bang's combos have always been on the lower end of the damage spectrum. He just throws them at you nonstop, so it's less of an issue for him. If his combos did the same 4-5k damage that other characters' combos did, he'd probably be one of the best characters in the game (and Dora would win every tournament). The problem I have with Rachel right now, aside from her oddly changed moveset (whee, time to relearn stuff), is how much every move prorates. Tacking a 2b onto the start of her >3k combo knocks it down to 2.1k. I mean, seriously? It never felt that bad before. Also, the cat chair having a wider hitbox is pretty awesome sounding, but I need to actually know how much wider we're talking about before I can say it's worth anything. If it's significantly larger, punishing Jin/Litchi/etc. will become a lot easier with it. Of course, comboing from a 2c hit that's outside of the range of 5b may be awkward, but we'll see. 2B prorating that much? Ok.. That's just stupid.. I mean, it's a standard low hit... Nothing special about it... Every character has one... So what makes this one so special that it needs to prorate and get rid of a third of the damage? I can understand some things, like the frog's proration, but this makes absolutely no sense, no matter how much proof you give me of the contrary. Ok.. Yeah, it probably involves some 3C and maybe a frog, but my point still stands.
Kuuhaku Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 It's Arcsys and they make changes to characters how they want. Don't worry though, if she's really totally out of whack this game, they'll probably give her the Potemkin treatment next game and we'll be good to go for loli corner rape. In the mean time we cope with what we're given. Considering how random a lot of the changes were from the loketests though (not just Rachel, but in general) I'm still pitting my theory into the final changes were decided by drunken darts and the person who had to throw the darts for Rachel was spiked.
Tari Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 2B prorating that much? Ok.. That's just stupid.. I mean, it's a standard low hit... Nothing special about it... Every character has one... So what makes this one so special that it needs to prorate and get rid of a third of the damage? I can understand some things, like the frog's proration, but this makes absolutely no sense, no matter how much proof you give me of the contrary. Ok.. Yeah, it probably involves some 3C and maybe a frog, but my point still stands. Taken from the changes thread: Rachel: ５Ａ：435 58.75％ ２Ａ：400 62.5％ ６Ａ：791 67.75％ ５Ｂ：720 80.0％ ２Ｂ：571 52.75％ ４Ｂ：888 72.0％ ６Ｂ：815 68.75％ ５Ｃ：756 76.5％ follow Ｃ：856 76.5％ ２Ｃ：955 63.75％ ３Ｃ：694(3HIT) 56.5％ ６Ｃ： ＪＡ：571 67.75％ ＪＢ：607 61.75％ ＪＣ：759 64.75％ Ｊ２Ｃ：1070 67.5％ Ｊ２Ｃ(LV2)：1538 84.5％ Ｊ２Ｃ(LV3)：2338 84.5％ 〇Special Pumpkin：547 61.75％ Ａ Lobelia：714 66.0％ Ｂ/C Lobelia：814 66.0％ Air Ａ Lobelia： Air Ｂ/Ｃ Lobelia：814 66.0％ Iris：1047 61.75％ Frog：808 65.0％ Lily(main)：1539 61.0％ Lily(pole)：1830 61.0％ Tempest(4w)：2194 42.75％ Tempest(3w)：1649 32.25％ Tempest(2w)：1430 29.25％ Tempest(1w)：1366 29.25％ Throw：1252 63.0％ Back throw：1252 63.0％ Some values looked kind of weird for me. 2a is... better than 2b now. I thought it used to be the other way around? Not that it matters, since 2a isn't a low, but, yeah. Considering how random a lot of the changes were from the loketests though (not just Rachel, but in general) I'm still pitting my theory into the final changes were decided by drunken darts and the person who had to throw the darts for Rachel was spiked. The Tager dart thrower spiked the Rachel thrower's drink before they began.
ssj2jeff Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 anyone else see a lot of potential with that 5B>5B>wall bounce on air born enemies. i think there's a lot of potential with it to give us a solid knockdown with oki. maybe do something like 5B>5C~5D>5C>frog> dash up> 2B>5B(frog activates)>5C>5C>frog>wall bounce>3C(frog activate)>pumpkin>3C>frog also if you RC j.2C it would work just like it did in CT right. if so i don't think she can be that bad.
kro_ Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 You're forgetting about the frog meter. Can't summon another one for awhile after the first one disappears. But yeah, 5cc wallbounce seems pretty important for extending combo damage in the corner, lengthening grounded combos, and setting up oki/create distance midscreen.
chun_li1 Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Regarding the Timeout wins in recent matches. The opponents were not doing any real high damage combos, if they had, it would probably have ended in a loss for Rachel and not a Time Out. Kinda scary, if your goal becomes to win by Time Out ... Thats hard work. Might even scare opponents away because matches take too long
Tari Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Bit curious as to whether our 4b is still beaten by 5a spam. Was playing around with it in CT earlier in an attempt to see if anything vaguely useful can be done with it and realized that the other player can actually just hold block and mash 5a. The amount of time it takes for 4b to come out is basically a guaranteed 5a counterhit (or if they're actually watching for it, they can just dp or do anything they want that's fast enough). Regarding the Timeout wins in recent matches. The opponents were not doing any real high damage combos, if they had, it would probably have ended in a loss for Rachel and not a Time Out. Kinda scary, if your goal becomes to win by Time Out ... Thats hard work. Might even scare opponents away because matches take too long You have a point. In a lot matches, other players are being careful around Rachel because they aren't sure what she can and can't do in the new game, while Rachel players are trying to figure out new combos. Lots of time outs.
DC Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 You're forgetting about the frog meter. Can't summon another one for awhile after the first one disappears. But yeah, 5cc wallbounce seems pretty important for extending combo damage in the corner, lengthening grounded combos, and setting up oki/create distance midscreen. Hm? From the videos it looks like the frog meter is 1 second or shorter. Does this really affect combos that much?
Lastblade Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Hm? From the videos it looks like the frog meter is 1 second or shorter. Does this really affect combos that much? It does and doesn't. When I've been playing, usually by the time you've summoned a pumpkin the frog meter is done. Also, 5CC wallbounce is fun when theres poles available.
Recommended Posts