[CS1] Rachel Info and Discussion

[Moogster]

Doesn't it look like that Rachel's playstyle revolves upon breaking the primer of the enemy? Her 2 guard break moves are safe in the sense that it can be followed up with a safe move afterwards. Actually after watching this videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XKsBol-Fro&feature=related I'm quite convinced that she's still good especially in breaking the primers safely.

Also can she lightning the lobelia even if it hasn't landed? I remembered a loketest summary saying that before.

[zdravkelja]

Yup, I thing that too. She has very good guard brake moves

[Outtawack311]

I am still trying to figure out how they thought it was fair to take things like 6b counterhit combos away from her, yet they give hakumen 6c that stuns for an eternity and he can do 6.5k damage off of it easily. CT rachel would have problems with CS haku. I hope we find some really viable tactics, soon...

[Konton]

Except that Rachel has a hard time getting in to do her guard primer moves and 4b is slow as hell. The only feasible follow up to a blocked 4b is the umbrella combo into lobelia which, yeah, takes 2 primers but now she has to get in all over again. In her Litchi vids she would break two primers and then by the time she got a chance to break 2 more the other player's primer gauge was already full. Maybe if pumpkin had more blockstun and could be used as an approach, but as is... >_<

[Moogster]

After a blocked 4B can she do a 5B > 3C > Lobelia > Lightning then move in to do another combo? Something like that.

[Tari]

Also can she lightning the lobelia even if it hasn't landed? I remembered a loketest summary saying that before.

She can summon lightning while the pole is forming, not before it's landed.

After a blocked 4B can she do a 5B > 3C > Lobelia > Lightning then move in to do another combo? Something like that.

You're forgetting that you can jab or dp out of a 4b on reaction in CT, and it doesn't looks greatly changed in CS.

If you can land the blocked 4b, then you have a chance for pressure, but it appears difficult at best.

[Kuuhaku]

Except that Rachel has a hard time getting in to do her guard primer moves and 4b is slow as hell.

The only feasible follow up to a blocked 4b is the umbrella combo into lobelia which, yeah, takes 2 primers but now she has to get in all over again. In her Litchi vids she would break two primers and then by the time she got a chance to break 2 more the other player's primer gauge was already full. Maybe if pumpkin had more blockstun and could be used as an approach, but as is... >_<

Is it the first or second hit of 5C that breaks primer? If it's the second, then it's really not safe on block. And 4B is slow as hell.

But yeah, Rachel's main problem with guard breaking is she has a hard time keeping up pressure. As mentioned, primers regenerate pretty fast once you get out of pressure. :X Plus guard crushing now is hella gimmicky because guard crush combos prorate like hell (with Rachel already prorating to hell, this doesn't really help her).

Fatal Counters looks like something more useful as Rachel can somewhat counter with 5CC. 4B? Lol. I've not once seen a match in CT or CS where that CHed.

j2C can combo on CH and also counts as a fatal counter, but once again good luck getting that to CH as pretty much any anti-air can take it out and it's not safe on block (so don't use it unless you're sure to get a hit).

Moogster- I'm not even sure how that'd work and that doesn't even sound like a legitimate blockstring. I don't see why you'd continue a block string after 3C on block, and even if it hits, 3C and lobelia don't combo.

[Tari]

Update to the original move list, for those who haven't seen it yet:

Rachel: (This one seems to be more accurate)

５Ａ：81.56％

２Ａ：81.25％

６Ａ：88.43％

５Ｂ：88.75％

２Ｂ：84.06％

４Ｂ：88.84％

６Ｂ：90.0％

５Ｃ：84.68％

Ｃ follow-up：85.0％

２Ｃ：88.2％

３Ｃ：89.68％(First hit)／100.0％(All other hits)

６Ｃ：98.43％

ＪＡ：83.38％

ＪＢ：85.84％

ＪＣ：79.69％

Ｊ２Ｃ：93.88％

Ｊ２Ｃ(LV2)：93.46％

Ｊ２Ｃ(LV3)：93.75％

〇Special

Pumpkin：85.93％

Ａ lobelia：91.87％

Ｂ/C lobelia：91.38％

Air Ａ lobelia：Probably same as A lobelia

Air Ｂ/Ｃ lobelia：Probably same as B/C lobelia

Iris：85.93％

Frog：84.68％

〇Super

Lily(Main)：Probably same as pole

Lily(Pole)：84.68％(First hit)／100.0％(Rest)

Tempest(4W)：62.28％

Tempest(3W)：51.02％

Tempest(2W)：46.66％

Tempest(1W)：46.66％

〇Throw

Throw：70.0％

Back throw：70.0％

Air throw:unconfirmed

These values definitely look more realistic. That said, the 3k+ combo actually says it drops to ~2.1k with 2b added. Not sure why.

The only time I ever CH a 4b was when I accidentally dropped a blockstring or did it against someone's jump-in (usually Tager) as a misinput. Not really sure there's any viability to that.

It sounds sort of like Rachel's blockstrings/mixups are similar to Arakune's, now (going based on what I've heard about him in CT, mind you, as I don't use him). They don't seem to be real blockstrings, but rather a series of somewhat unsafe moves used in succession to pressure the opponent and keep him guessing on when to block and punish.

Oh, I was wondering about the speed on the 4b (still don't have confirmation on if you can jab out of it or not, but I'm assuming yes) for things like j.3db j.c 5a 4b 2b 5bd 4b 5b j.3db j.c 4b... and whatnot. 4b is obviously never safe, but I was wondering if silly mixups like that were even viable at all.

[Kuuhaku]

In general it's weird that her B moves prorate more than her jabs. Overall, it doesn't look like she has any safe mix up block strings (or really much of a mix up at all). From what I've heard j3db isn't really good anymore as it'll whiff on some characters. I remember reading somewhere that they changed the hitbox for it. So when people tried to use it to replace jA they failed pretty hardcore.

[Celcius]

Is pumpkin block stun really that bad, such that you can't rely on winded pumpkin to cover holes in blockstrings? And nice to see updated prorate chart. I was loling at the crazy 50-60% the last time. At first I , then I

[Brotrr]

First draft of the Japanese tier charts have Rachel in D tier. Obviously shouldn't put too much weight behind this seeing as the game is barely a week old, but it's hard to keep my hopes up right now :S inb4 tiers don't matter, blahblahblah, they mean something, however small to us.

[Kuuhaku]

Lol. That's not much of a surprise. Was she at least above Noel? Or is she the new low tier princess?

[Brotrr]

In some versions she's D with Tsubaki, in others she's D by herself.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=508738&postcount=901

[Kuuhaku]

Haha. I love to see broken stuff already popping up in this game like Hakumen's 9k damage combos and Taokaka now having a taunt loop that she can rep 11 times for 7k damage. Overall I'm a little surprised to see that Noel moved up and Tsubaki moved down. I thought she was doing better than Hazama. But if Taokaka has a loop that she can rep 11 times, Rachel better have a massive 5CC wall bounce loop. *cheers for Japan to make it happen*

[kreichjr]

I've been messing around trying to find a way to combo into the 5cc wall bounce loop. Trying to open up some other options for damage that we may be overlooking. You can do: 5b 5cdc dash up 5b 2d 5cc 6a 2d 5cc The 5cc wall bounce needs to be done immediately, timing is kinda tight and it has to be almost point blank. Doing 1d blows you too far for it to connect, didn't try 3d but I'm doubting that will work. Also, I don't know if it'd be worth it to spend a wind to get the wall bounce off. I THINK you can do 5b 5cc 236b dash up 5cc and I think it combos. I'm trying to avoid frog stuff as I hear scaling is pretty bad. I have some combos that I'd like to test but its hard to get on the machine without getting romped =( One I'd like to test is roughly midscreen... It goes as follows: NOT SURE IF THIS WORKS!!! 50% meter, 2 wind: 5b 5cdc 236b dash up 5cc wall bounce 6c j.c 632146c 236a 4d 3c (x hits) 214c 3c(x hits) 214a oki Ideal distance would put the 236b pole near the corner so the super would get the opponent with the melee super + pole. The x hits for the 3c is because I don't know how many hits to do. Lemme know what you guys think.

[Lastblade]

i know what you mean about it being hard to test things right now lol. Fortunately, I stayed passed closing tonight and managed to test a ton of stuff, including record rachel's arcade ending. I've been mainly doing 5B 5CDC 236B IAD j.B j.C 214C j.C dj.C or frog hits -> 5CC 236BD 214C or BBL. 6A RC 5CC worked off a CH 6A but only once. 6A 6CD worked quite well also. @Kreichjr: Have you noticed rachel's 2C being a bit quicker on start up? It's alot easier to get out of pressure strings with it now. Annoyed so many people with it. 2C CH 2D 5CC.

[Skye]

Haha. I love to see broken stuff already popping up in this game like Hakumen's 9k damage combos

Where was this?

[kreichjr]

I have noticed 2c seems a lot easier to land, I hit hsien with it several times. Maybe they increased invuln. Frames? It'll probably be seeing more use in this version. 6a RC 5cc doesn't seem very useful personally. I'd rather save my meter for RCing 2c or for super. Personally, I think 6a 2d 5cc would be the better option, saves meter, can do it without meter, and could potentially lead into super. I wish we knew how many reps of 5cc we can do, depending on when we start the combo. Example like 3 reps if you catch a normal 5cc, verses maybe like 2 reps if it's starting on the 5th hit. If you could test some of the things from my previous post, I'd appreciate it! I'm at work currently and won't be off until 7. If I get a chance to test anything, ill post whatever I find. EDIT: Also, 6a's horizontal range sucks now. On hit, 5b 6a whiffs on at least smaller characters, don't remember who I tried it on... maybe Noel... Meh Also, I don't know if this has been posted yet, but if you're playing against the computer, if you taunt, you get 100 heat the first time you do it =D Lemme know if you want to see my test combos, haha, they're probably no good, but it's something to try I guess...

[Brotrr]

Where was this?

It's not a 9K combo, it's a fully charged Shippu. Shit load of damage, but when are you ever gonna hit with a fully charged one?

[kreichjr]

Okay, so during my lunch at work, I went by the arcade and I tested a little bit. Unfortunately, there was a newb playing Tsubaki, and he kept playing me, but I found out just a lil bit...: The 236b in 5b 5cdc 236b seems to whiff (lands past her, kinda like Nu in CT) if point blank, but if started a bit further out 236b will hit. If it hits, you have enough time to run up and do 5cc, first hit will whiff, 2nd will wall bounce and still combo. I decided to try experimenting with this as it doesn't cost an extra wind to land the 5cc wall bounce. I believe I managed to land a 6c j.c but my super whiffed, I don't know if I did the j.c too early, possible though. Someone jump on the bandwagon and help me test! Rachel's gotta have something!

[Kuuhaku]

As soon as the person in our area gets CS, I'll raid his house and look for something to make Rachel playable. She probably won't ever move from bottom tier (she's worse off than CT Tager as CT Tager actually had decent damage, just his defense sucked) but I'd like to see something that'll make her able to compete.

[kreichjr]

Awesome, Good to hear! Oh, I forgot to mention, if you land 5b 5cdc and it pushes them into the corner, you can just run up 5cc and the 2nd hit will otg (at least) Tsubaki and wall bounce her. I'm curious if you can use frog to maybe lower the recovery of the 5cc and do in the corner something like...: 5b 5cdc dash up 5cc wallbounce 214a 5cc wallbounce *frog hits* 6a 6c j.c 632146c *ender* Although I kind of doubt it, We'll have to test and see and maybe make adjustments... Input is welcome!

[Lastblade]

Since it looks like your handling Rachel in Austin, and I'm doing Rachel in Houston. We should be able to come up with stuff a bit quicker.

I tested how many times I could do 5CC after a frog hit and got roughly 4 repetitions of it before they landed.

Also, something I've been experimenting with and I'm not sure how viable it is, is canceling moves with j.214C (Air Iris) even without poles. It seems to be canceling some recovery time for a few moves, like j2C when it connects and a few others. But it may just be a lack of reaction to it from opponents.

6CD j.C 5B 5CDC 236B (pause before using lobelia on certain characters like tager and tsubaki) IAD j.B j.C, land 6A 632146C has worked a few times.

I have tried your 5b 5cdc dash up 5cc wallbounce 214a 5cc wallbounce *frog hits* 6a 6c j.c 632146c *ender* a few times but the frog hasn't been wanting to activate in the corner. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong on it.

Also, don't remember who asked me to check this, but people can still mash A to punish Rachel's 4B during pressure strings.

[kreichjr]

Okay, I wasn't sure if the frog would activate or not, it was just a thought I had a few minutes ago. I'm just trying to throw stuff out there to test, and what I have and haven't tested. Perhaps the frog could be used for oki, or maybe there's a way we can get frog to activate if we do something different. Keep at it, I'll be lurking til 7 :P

[Lastblade]

Frog Oki is pretty good still, I've been having a fair amount of fun with putting the frog out, jumping up and winding myself over the opponent, dragging the frog right underneith them. When I tried that combo, the frog seemed to be slightly too far away to activate so maybe another wind may be necessary. 642146B (tempest) with 3 or 4 wind stocks allows you enough time to get over to them and continue comboing them or set up mixups. Also, the super seems to have barely any invincibility but does come out regardless (Think carl's gear super but with pumpkins, frogs and cows). Note: I'm lurking for a lil while longer then heading out lol