killionaire Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 she's not the best character, she the worst of the top 3, and anyone who thinks she's lol hax needs to gtfo out of this forum now ~Ride the bewb Have to disagree with you there.. So, when can I gtfo?
GenoWhirl Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 How about you just main Bang Alex :v sorry I had to
sanshiki Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Alex when you quote Japanese videos as the prime example of how a rachel can be played the best. I have to be blunt here. I haven't seen ANY country's Rachel try to utilize all her tools to the max Matsu relies on terrible combos that doesn't flesh out her damage with use of wind (bar a certain moment where he 2C CH and did the bnb FC combo) and nice/great setups while MaDao has great combos but generally not as experienced in the game. She has great guard breaking ability. Just having the opponent guard the frog each time is 2 primers gone each with 4B 5CC. Job done, GTFO, rinse repeat. Your main means of damage is actually to just deal guard crush damage to the 4-5 primer characters by forcing them to guard the frog multiple times from a safe position. You don't have to deal with easy mode character bullshit if you're not forced to rush in brainlessly like being poked out while trying to mixup high lows. Lobelia spam is weak period. Rushing down with high lows is ineffective and unrewarding. Not to mention after phailing to break his block, you're also out of wind and a sitting duck for pressure. Guard breaking should be the defacto mindset of all Rachels (bar one certain matchup ). Rachel has gotten weaker from CT. Most of her ranged pokes/summons are now half as good as they were before. The reason why is obvious: Because thats some overpowered shit there; Imagine no cooldown on frog, and old pumpkin lockdown: Example situation: Opponent blocks frog, 214B, 4B 5CC 214A3D1D 4B 5CC. At this point if the guy was a 4 primer character, he would have eaten free damage just by blocking the frog ONCE. Rachel now has better melee tools. 5A is 5 frames. At least you can reversal 5A like a neutered Bang up close. 2A is buffed from 9 to 7 frames. Its easy as hell to land 2As now if they are poke happy at the wrong times. 2C is now autoguard at 3 frames, which makes it a much better reversal move against people trying to lock you down up close; Rachel has a much easier time getting out of shit now. If all else fails, she still can wind herself out of the corner. Bam! Neutral game again. Note how easy it is still to jump away from most characters, but now she can chose to stay on the ground and duke it out if she desires. Rachel C tier? Only because people are still playing CT Rachel in essence, no matter what new flashy CS combos or gimmick mixups they come up with. Rachel CAN have presence. It is the feeling of being primer assraped after blocking once. After they get used to the new Rachel, its only too easy to land lows when they desperately try to poke or DP out from your 4B/5CCs. Rachel's damage is only shit because her damage needs no mixups, only great zoning sense and situational setups. By the way, BBL rods also break guard. Now you have something to do with 100% meter in the corner.
Spirit Juice Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 She has great guard breaking ability. Just having the opponent guard the frog each time is 2 primers gone each with 4B 5CC. Job done, GTFO, rinse repeat. Your main means of damage is actually to just deal guard crush damage to the 4-5 primer characters by forcing them to guard the frog multiple times from a safe position. You don't have to deal with easy mode character bullshit if you're not forced to rush in brainlessly like being poked out while trying to mixup high lows. Rachel C tier? Only because people are still playing CT Rachel in essence, no matter what new flashy CS combos or gimmick mixups they come up with. Rachel CAN have presence. It is the feeling of being primer assraped after blocking once. After they get used to the new Rachel, its only too easy to land lows when they desperately try to poke or DP out from your 4B/5CCs. Rachel's damage is only shit because her damage needs no mixups, only great zoning sense and situational setups. This is theory fighting and hilarity at its finest.
soujiro seta Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 lol, so I like coming here to read about rach stuff, and I must say, this is the most interesting discussion you guys have had in a while. I'm not being sarcastic at all. I will have to agree with God of Olympus Rachel is the most broken character in the game. You only get to experience this when you face a good rachel. They only reason why you see more nus and arakunes is because they are both easier to exploit than rachel, spam D and free curse on block into infinite bee rape. You actually have to know what you're doing with rachel to exploit her. Which is too much trouble for most. Why go through all that when i can just spam D/free curse and win? Hence, more arakunes/nus than rachels. Alex, just main bang or litchi in CS Rachel needed some nerfs, ofcourse. Even rachel mains agreed with that. The only problem is that she was nerfed a bit too much, even I will agree, but when you, Alex, say that she was balanced in CT and wonder why she needed to be changed, lol, i simply just have to lol.
killionaire Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 This is theory fighting and hilarity at its finest. You know... Now I'm starting to see why they say you're such a nice mod...
Spirit Juice Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 To be fair, Nu, Arakune, and Rachel wouldn't have been as hard to deal with if CT's defensive mechanics (guard bar and burst) didn't suck so much ass. But yes, Rachel needed nerfs, although she got overnerfed by a long shot. In CT, Rachel was, in theory, the most broken character, but probably the least annoying to deal with out of the three. Against Arakune and Nu, it was pretty much you got hit once or cursed you just lost the round. However, that's neither here nor there now. You know... Now I'm starting to see why they say you're such a nice mod... Not sure if this is sarcasm or not.
GenoWhirl Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 How did Ryoko Souji and SJ end up here anyways maybe...they are all lolicons?
Spirit Juice Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Oh, nevermind the fact that I used to play this character and am one of the god damn moderators for this forum. >:|
soujiro seta Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 To be fair, Nu, Arakune, and Rachel wouldn't have been as hard to deal with if CT's defensive mechanics (guard bar and burst) didn't suck so much ass. But yes, Rachel needed nerfs, although she got overnerfed by a long shot. In CT, Rachel was, in theory, the most broken character, but probably the least annoying to deal with out of the three. Against Arakune and Nu, it was pretty much you got hit once or cursed you just lost the round. However, that's neither here nor there now. Not sure if this is sarcasm or not. Yeah, theoretically rachel is the most broken, but as you said, she's the least annoying to deal with. Trying to evade nus swords of death and getting counterhit on the way into big damage, which lands you back in the corner, aka square 1,, was very hard for the cast to handle. Even for rachel and arakune. Arakune, imo, is the most annoying of the top 3. Free curse on block is a death sentence, and the fact that he has such good air mobility, dive spam, teleporting once you do corner him, made his curse on block literally a free win. That's why people don't really complain about rachel. Not many people use her, and you really have to face a good one to understand why. Whereas nu and arakune are easier to exploit,more annoying to play, and there are so many of them around. Hence why people hate them so much. How did Ryoko Souji and SJ end up here anyways maybe...they are all lolicons? Lol, for some strange reason i usually come here. I don't know why, lol, but something draws me here. Maybe I'm a closet loli fan? lol. Then again I usually have a thing for young characters in fighting games. Lol, I main carl but I'm not a shota lover. There's just something about beating your opponent down using a young, short, childish looking character that draws me to them. Lol, like the other day in player matches, some guy over the mic was like "I hate carl. It's like your getting you're ass kicked by a little kid", lol, I love that frustration. I've also received some PMs on xbl along the lines of, "Stop hiding behind your sister like a little bitch", hahaha, good times those were.
God_Of_Olympus Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 oh dear god did the word of someone not thinking rachel was broken spread that far
Alex073088 Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Alex when you quote Japanese videos as the prime example of how a rachel can be played the best. I have to be blunt here. I haven't seen ANY country's Rachel try to utilize all her tools to the max Matsu relies on terrible combos that doesn't flesh out her damage with use of wind (bar a certain moment where he 2C CH and did the bnb FC combo) and nice/great setups while MaDao has great combos but generally not as experienced in the game. She has great guard breaking ability. Just having the opponent guard the frog each time is 2 primers gone each with 4B 5CC. Job done, GTFO, rinse repeat. Your main means of damage is actually to just deal guard crush damage to the 4-5 primer characters by forcing them to guard the frog multiple times from a safe position. You don't have to deal with easy mode character bullshit if you're not forced to rush in brainlessly like being poked out while trying to mixup high lows. Lobelia spam is weak period. Rushing down with high lows is ineffective and unrewarding. Not to mention after phailing to break his block, you're also out of wind and a sitting duck for pressure. Guard breaking should be the defacto mindset of all Rachels (bar one certain matchup ). Rachel has gotten weaker from CT. Most of her ranged pokes/summons are now half as good as they were before. The reason why is obvious: Because thats some overpowered shit there; Imagine no cooldown on frog, and old pumpkin lockdown: Example situation: Opponent blocks frog, 214B, 4B 5CC 214A3D1D 4B 5CC. At this point if the guy was a 4 primer character, he would have eaten free damage just by blocking the frog ONCE. Rachel now has better melee tools. 5A is 5 frames. At least you can reversal 5A like a neutered Bang up close. 2A is buffed from 9 to 7 frames. Its easy as hell to land 2As now if they are poke happy at the wrong times. 2C is now autoguard at 3 frames, which makes it a much better reversal move against people trying to lock you down up close; Rachel has a much easier time getting out of shit now. If all else fails, she still can wind herself out of the corner. Bam! Neutral game again. Note how easy it is still to jump away from most characters, but now she can chose to stay on the ground and duke it out if she desires. Rachel C tier? Only because people are still playing CT Rachel in essence, no matter what new flashy CS combos or gimmick mixups they come up with. Rachel CAN have presence. It is the feeling of being primer assraped after blocking once. After they get used to the new Rachel, its only too easy to land lows when they desperately try to poke or DP out from your 4B/5CCs. Rachel's damage is only shit because her damage needs no mixups, only great zoning sense and situational setups. By the way, BBL rods also break guard. Now you have something to do with 100% meter in the corner. In all honesty man, i go for guard break when i'm pressuring my opponent, as i mentioned before j.2c is punishable every way u wanna use it and once blocked thats one wind bar gone for nuthing i rarely go for the mix-up but when i do i normally hit becuase i rarely use it,bbl is great on block in the corner with extra rods for several reasons including the one u mention, this gives u enough time to reposition your pumpkin if need be, of course guard break(or for them to use barrier making it easier to maintain pressure due to it running dry enough to be pushed to far back to extend your pressure), helps restore atleast one bar of wind, and u have enough to summon a frog and if your pumpkin is out which it should be wind down to make sure the you summoning it was safe for guranteed extension in your pressure for more guard crush. however...i break guards in every match i play but i noticed, sometimes when i break there guard and there in the air, they sometimes land and is out of the long stun animation its also a bit difficult to get any thing really good in every situation if they are in the air, and with the things in cs work guard break will be seen much much less. Also i only mentioned the japanesse players because some else mentioned me to watch them play, i also believe that they arent the best examples of how rachel should be played but its something to go by.They play rachel the way that works best for them.Thanks alot for you input also btw, you really know your stuff.
Alex073088 Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 To all I never used rachel because she was top tier, i decided rachel long before the game even came out when i saw the 12 characters to choose from. i was like hey she looks really kool gots a nice big dress with a nice design, hair like sailor moon and an umbrella. then when the videos came she fought really kool, and when the game came out she had a very likeable and entertaining personality. Im most definitley not switching to bang and litchi i dont like neither of those characters, even though there top tier the best two, i dont play fighting games to choose the best characters. In fact i still use bridget in guilty gear despite his horrible nerfs, and being incredibly hard to win with, i may still use rachel..its just what bridget can do versus what rachel is now..it just makes me wonder do i wanna go through the frustration of trying and trying and just getting beat because the tools arent there to win with the character. Im sure when the game reaches consoles and we all start playing it, we gonna be goin through some really tough shit. For the record i never said balanced, i said a good character, because when i fight tager and hakumens...good once's, the kinda of shit rachel can do to them i know isnt right, espically hakumen....the easiest matchup at least for me in the entire game. And i tell hakumens all the time that i believe the match-up is not fair at all, but its not gonna stop me from allowing you to cut me with your sword that has a guard point on it. I win a whole lot when playig rachel online, i been in rooms all day consistently beating people who are way above my level, i normally have streaks of like 50 or so and people come in and get beat for while then just leave then the next one comes, however, when going against higher level player who use nu, arakune(sometimes), jin, or litchi it becomes very hard to win i almost feel as though they can abuse things over and over again on rachel, in cs, arakune cant abuse anything anymore i dont see him with the great air moblity that he has in ct, and i dont see jim spamming j.b....but i do see jin raping rachel with his 5d, 2d shennigans while shes in teh corner...nu still looks the same execpt it takes longer to kill you now. litchi is a goddess.
Varamathras Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Rachel is the only character who can guard break you twice in one attack string. Not joking.
feri Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Less talk about online play cause that shit isnt even the same game. Nobody cares if you chose your character because you thought she was cool, if you thought she suited your style or if you just chose her from a look at a tier list. Fact is... it doesnt make Rachel any less TT. If you honestly think japanese Rachels are not the best example of how you play Rachel competitively then you are either... 1. A genius because your smarter than Rachel players who have to exist in an arcade scene stronger than you will ever know. 2. Not experienced enough to truely understand what they are doing and why.
Tari Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Rachel is powerful. She was nerfed. End of story? Or wait, I see how it is.... It's a trap! Oh, nevermind the fact that I used to play this character and am one of the god damn moderators for this forum. >:| Wait, but didn't you say something like... "I never mained Rachel"?
Spirit Juice Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Wait, but didn't you say something like... "I never mained Rachel"? Maybe. Or maybe I was trolling.
killionaire Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Maybe. Or maybe I was trolling. DAMMIT SJ! Stop making my head spin! Also, I blame the Squigglies of these forums for bringing their e-drama curse to us... I'll be prepping my lawsuit shortly.
Tari Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Maybe. Or maybe I was trolling. Omae wa mou shindeiru. Someone should buy SJ that Rachel pillow.
Alex073088 Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Less talk about online play cause that shit isnt even the same game. Nobody cares if you chose your character because you thought she was cool, if you thought she suited your style or if you just chose her from a look at a tier list. Fact is... it doesnt make Rachel any less TT. If you honestly think japanese Rachels are not the best example of how you play Rachel competitively then you are either... 1. A genius because your smarter than Rachel players who have to exist in an arcade scene stronger than you will ever know. 2. Not experienced enough to truely understand what they are doing and why. seriously man i seen alot of vids of the jap players i see way to much rushdown when its not neccesary, and they practically give match that way,i seen alot of stupid ways top restore wind as well. Im not saying there skilled but we shouldnt just follow everything we see a japanesse player do and think its the best way to go just because there doing it.I think tis better to think for ourselves after we had a chance to play and evaluate what may be the best option
Spirit Juice Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Except all the strats and combos we used in CT were all stolen from the Japanese.
killionaire Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Yeah.. We're not creative or original, but we sure know our stuff more than they do.. Rite guys?
God_Of_Olympus Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 stop just stop, stop saying we dont have to follow the japanese and that they make mistakes you sound like a fucking idiot and you're embaressing yourself setting yourself up yet again for more flaming, just stop
feri Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 You dont have to follow how a japanese Rachel plays exactly (Its actually impossible) but you can sure as hell copy anything that you understand and apply it to your own game to see if it works for you. A good example of stealing a strategy is Japanese CT Rachel's approach to the Arakune matchup.
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