ryokoalways Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 Doing damage isn't rachel's main problem. Being able to hit anyone that knows how to block is the problem.
Kuuhaku Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 And then doing damage from that hit becomes her problem because even with hit, you're looking at a max of 3k damage with heat... unless they feel like standing under three poles for fun.
ryokoalways Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 If you have methods of creating damage, the low damage output will seem like a much smaller problem.
Rhannmah Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 Yes, I wouldn't mind at all a very low damage output if Rachel had the ability to easily lock down and rush her opponents for a good high-low mixup game. As it stands now, it seems she has trouble getting in, then establishing a good mixup game, and when something -does- hit she can't output any damage at all. -edit- Oh, also she seems to have a hell lot of trouble keeping the opponent under pressure after said non-damaging combo is complete...
Konton Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 Which is why meterless Tsubaki and Noel's playing it safe aren't in Rachel tier. They're damage isn't great without pulling off some crazy shit, but they still have options to pressure. Oh... and they CAN fall back on going for crazy shit. Rachel has nothing.
Tari Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 3k combo for one wind. No specific starter specified. Mid-screen frog combo characters only. 5CC (with wind) 214A run up 3C (1 hit) 236A 6C j.C 214C sj.C JC dsj.C j.236A You can sacrifice another wind (214ad dash 3c236a) to successfully pull that off on non-midscreen frog combo characters, too, unless 5cc untechable time has been reduced. This sounds super sexy......please tell me it does over 4k:( I don't believe it does, and it's a fairly hard combo to time properly. :8/: I'll see if I can check at some point, though. I'm pretty sure failing that combo actually provides significantly more damage in CS: 6a 5b JC j.b j.c2d JC j.2c (combo drops, hits them on tech, registers as a level 2 hit) land, 66 6a 5b SJC j.b j.a j.b j.c JC j.b j.c j.236a In CT, the damage difference is pretty small (~4.5k either way), but in CS with BBL's massive nerf....
Spirit Juice Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 You can sacrifice another wind (214ad dash 3c236a) to successfully pull that off on non-midscreen frog combo characters, too, unless 5cc untechable time has been reduced. Keep in mind that 3C doesn't even hit some characters OTG (Carl, Nu, Tager, Hazama I think). Not sure if I missed any.
Soniti Posted December 16, 2009 Author Posted December 16, 2009 Keep in mind that 3C doesn't even hit some characters OTG (Carl, Nu, Tager, Hazama I think). Not sure if I missed any. Noel too unless it was changed in CS.
Spirit Juice Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 Oh yeah, I forgot about Noel. Geno, the combo does not work the same way if you replace 3C with 2B 5B or 5B.
God_Of_Olympus Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 what about just 2b into 236a it combos it's just harder then 5b >236a or 3c>236a
Spirit Juice Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 I don't think 2B has enough hit stun to combo into 236A.
God_Of_Olympus Posted December 16, 2009 Posted December 16, 2009 I don't think 2B has enough hit stun to combo into 236A. It does i've done it before, in fact there's a combo vid where the rachel use 2B to OTG double frog combo a non 3C-able charatcer it went something like 5B 5CDC 214A 66 2B 236A TK george 2D 66 3C (until george hits) 22A 3C [214A] in fact this combo should still work so long as you can re-summon George if he hasn't shocked but anyways, 2B 236A combos the timing is a bit strict though, i'm assuming it's easier though since 236A looks to be faster Edit: was there a nerf other than proration on 2B i was unaware of..... Edit2 : actually this combo may not work anymore....since george is in mid electricution when you re summon him...unless the cool down is only after he's done....double frog comboing non 3C-ables....is gone too ;-;
Tari Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 6a 5b JC j.b j.c 2d JC j.2c (combo drops, hit registers as a level 2) (6a) 5b JC j.b j.c JC j.b j.c j.236a That one looked like it landed somewhere between 2 and 3k total damage. Hard pressed to tell for sure, since I don't really stop to look at the numbers in the middle of that, and it doesn't count as a single combo. The non-dropped version (level 3 j.2c hit into BBL) doesn't seem to do an amazing amount of damage, unfortunately. Didn't get any actual numbers, though. Oh yeah, I forgot about Noel. Geno, the combo does not work the same way if you replace 3C with 2B 5B or 5B. It might work with 2b/5b. I tried it earlier, and it seemed as though it was feasible. That said, I did the combo starting with 2b 5b 5cdc, and the overall damage was around 2k. I'm not sure if that was because I swapped out 3c236a or because I opened it with two moves, but it certainly wasn't 3k damage. God, I suck with CS Rachel. I'm way too used to using 6a and 6b. The latter is useless, and the former has a very changed hitbox and extended recovery, so I just keep whiffing it and getting punished. She still seems okay, though. Far from good, but still 'okay.' Tsubaki seems significantly stronger than Rachel, on an unrelated note. xD
Rhannmah Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 She still seems okay, though. Far from good, but still 'okay.' if by 'okay', you mean "bottom tier that her only reasonable chance of winning is basically by time out", then i guess she's still "okay". although time will tell, as it seems that most players haven't got a hang of her changes yet, but I fear the number of players working on her will keep dwindling until basically nobody important plays her anymore... :sad:
Brotrr Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 She's definitely gotten a lot better over the last month though, there's no denying it. I still have a faint glimmer of hope. As long as she's not in Rachel tier I'll be happy.
Tari Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 if by 'okay', you mean "bottom tier that her only reasonable chance of winning is basically by time out", then i guess she's still "okay". although time will tell, as it seems that most players haven't got a hang of her changes yet, but I fear the number of players working on her will keep dwindling until basically nobody important plays her anymore... :sad: By 'okay', I mean that in order to win, you can't really screw around and that the risk-rewards for attacking haphazardly are so low they aren't worth it. She's low-tier, unquestionably. She's just not unplayable.
sanshiki Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Anyone tried mixup string into 6CD,C, then mixup/pressure into another 6CD,C till they hit the corner? Might be the way to fly since expecting to win off of projectile spam isn't reliable at all.
Tari Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 You can duck the j.C after a 6C. It actually hits on some crouching in CS, I think. Need to check again, though. Can't say for sure. Edit: Checked some stuff out, so.... j.c does not hit on all crouching. It's probably character specific, but I don't know who it does and does not hit. 6a sucks in comparison to its CT counterpart. The timing is quite different for landing it, and it will clash with a great majority of Tager's aerials. Still viable as an AA, though. 2c is more useful than before, but the extended horizontal range still isn't useful against the longer-ranged melee attacks some other characters have, and the recovery still sucks. You can use it to go through Hakumen's new 4b, for example, but chances are that you won't hit him (I've used it more than halfway into his sword before and not gotten a hit) and if so, he can just do it again and CH you. 6b is useless. Anyway, couple combos below, most start with j.b j.c 2d j.2c. It's worth mentioning that while landing that j.2c as a level 3 in CT is fairly difficult, I land it 8 out of 10 times in CS. Not sure if there's actually a difference or it's just a matter of practice, though. I haven't gotten used to the idea of 5cc wallbouncing airborne characters, so I've not really used it much for that purpose, yet. 6a 5b JC j.b j.c 2d JC j.2c (registers as a level 3 hit) land, 66a32146c 236a 3c 214c 3c 214a 'oki'. The above combo does a bit over 3k damage. You can switch out '3c 214c 3c 214a 'oki'' with '6c j.c j.214c', too, for around the same amount of damage. Forgot to try doing 236a twice. 6a 5b JC j.b j.c 2d JC j.2c (combo drops, hits them on tech, registers as a level 2 hit) land, 66 6a 5b SJC j.b j.a j.b j.c JC j.b j.c j.236a This one comes close to clearing 3k (or clears 3k, not sure which, as I don't check damage values in the middle of a 'two-part' combo). Probably will only work once or twice, depending on whether you've been using the legit version a bunch or not. 6a 5b JC j.b j.c 2d JC j.2c (registers as a level 3 hit) land, SJ j.c JC j.c j.236a Does ~2k (2.2 or 2.3k, if I remember correctly) damage, and can be combo'd off of a 2c CH or a 6a/6a CH. 5b 5cdc 214a dash 2b 5b SJ 8d JC j.2dc (level 3 hit) land 632146c 236 6c j.c j.214c Absolutely not worth it to do this combo. Takes 3 wind and 50 meter and either doesn't hit 3k damage or barely eeks it out, depending on how you start it.
metsuke Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 By 'okay', I mean that in order to win, you can't really screw around and that the risk-rewards for attacking haphazardly are so low they aren't worth it. She's low-tier, unquestionably. She's just not unplayable. It depends on what your definition of "unplayable" is. She's definitely not a character JP tournament players should be using. In the US ... who knows?
Tari Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 It depends on what your definition of "unplayable" is. She's definitely not a character JP tournament players should be using. In the US ... who knows? Good point. I don't really care if she's tournament viable, so I wasn't basing my comments on that.
ryokoalways Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 If people continue to block lobelia with their face I think you will be ok.
GenoWhirl Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 Oh, It seems we can barely break 3k, now we must master the art of 6a ._.
Tari Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 [6a] 5b JC j.b j.c 2d JC j.2c (registers as a level 3 hit) land, SJ j.b j.c JC j.b j.c j.236a Final version of this combo, I think. Can't milk any more damage out of it. Does a tiny bit over 2.3k damage, and can be combo'd off of 2c, 6a, ground throw, and 3c. Anything that leads into a 5b air combo, basically, though certain characters require additional hits. For example, the ground throw version against Hazama seems to work best with a j.a inserted between the first j.b and j.c. 3k combo for one wind. No specific starter specified. Mid-screen frog combo characters only. 5CC (with wind) 214A run up 3C (1 hit) 236A 6C j.C 214C sj.C JC dsj.C j.236A I think this combo still works with 2b 5b 236a, if with less damage. Can't recall if it black-beated (blue-beated?) or not, though. I have yet to break 3k with it, as well, probably because I start with 4b or 2b into 5b. --- Hazama is midscreen frog-able. This only seems to be true from point blank next to him, however, so something like 5b j.3db j.c 5b 5cdc 214a should set him up for frogging. 3c appears to whiff on him (I think this has been mentioned before), so I've been sticking to 2b 5b into frog against him. Fighting Hakumen is a huge pain. Not entirely sure how to approach him with his new pokes. Also, I should correct something I wrote earlier. 6a is only a mediocre anti-air. It's still a nice launcher, though. And for situations where it clashes (like against Tager's aerial moves), I just input 6a twice. If it hits, then the second 6a won't do anything, and if it clashes, then my 6a comes out again immediately. Probably not a great idea against some characters, but it works fine on Tager (so far).
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