Mike Z Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 CH = frame until which he is considered in CH state. So 5A has 7 startup, 3 active, and 7 recovery, and CH is 9, so for all of the startup and the first 2 active frames he is in CH state.
Manta Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 Just when I thought the recovery on some of Tager's moves was bad enough, now I know that they're in CH state for most of it. That hurts a lot. Also, am I the only one who thinks 5B and 2B having 100% starting proration is nuts?
DoomieJ Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 Just when I thought the recovery on some of Tager's moves was bad enough, now I know that they're in CH state for most of it. That hurts a lot. Also, am I the only one who thinks 5B and 2B having 100% starting proration is nuts? considering how much collider prorates, i think thats fine.
Manta Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 Having some serious trouble interpreting the notes section of the frame data. I can see the obvious bits like magnetism length, guard breaker moves and I know which moves cause bounce, slide and force grounding state. But there's other bits I just don't get: 6B does something for 27F, is this some invulnerability of some kind? 6C says something and then 55%, keh? j.C says 13~and then some words, is this talking something specific about that added velocity it gives? j.2C something happens for a whole 60F amongst all that. All the throws mention something about 100%, I'm taking that to mean they always do full damage, regardless of combo (because I know they do) j.B+C mentions something about a range between 60,000 and 280,000 units What is the move listed between the last of the normals and the first special, with - for every attribute except notes? I'll leave it at that for now, there'll be more later.
Osuna Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 CH = frame until which he is considered in CH state. So 5A has 7 startup, 3 active, and 7 recovery, and CH is 9, so for all of the startup and the first 2 active frames he is in CH state.? Wouldn't it be the opposite? Like the number of frames until you leave CH state? Others stuff like sledge wouldn't have counterhit state until active and I'd be able to throw tech throws that interrupted a lot of my moves. I haven't played much CS but that sounds a bit drastically different from CT. But also cool, so I don't mind being wrong. edit: oh nvm you said it frame until -which-... I'm silly.
ShinsoBEAM Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 You are both right, Mike Z just worded it weirdly.
BigLeafyTree Posted May 11, 2010 Posted May 11, 2010 Having some serious trouble interpreting the notes section of the frame data. I can see the obvious bits like magnetism length, guard breaker moves and I know which moves cause bounce, slide and force grounding state. But there's other bits I just don't get: 6B does something for 27F, is this some invulnerability of some kind? 6C says something and then 55%, keh? j.C says 13~and then some words, is this talking something specific about that added velocity it gives? j.2C something happens for a whole 60F amongst all that. All the throws mention something about 100%, I'm taking that to mean they always do full damage, regardless of combo (because I know they do) j.B+C mentions something about a range between 60,000 and 280,000 units What is the move listed between the last of the normals and the first special, with - for every attribute except notes? I'll leave it at that for now, there'll be more later. Comparing it to the CT Tager frame data (http://blazblue.byethost13.com/bbct/characters/tager/bbct_tager_data.html) 6B's note is 27f recovery on hit, j.C's note is it giving you extra forward momentum from f13 onwards. For the air throw the only thing measured in numbers that large is distance as far as I know, maybe distance from the ground? 6C's note with % is probably related to proration somehow. There's a note on the throws that has 100%, so maybe it can't be prorated BELOW 55%? It's just a guess, but the 60f on j.2C's note might be how long it knocks them down either on counterhit or when you hit them out of the air.
Manta Posted May 12, 2010 Posted May 12, 2010 New and improved translation of the frame data, with thanks to those n the previous posts and whoever originally compiled the CT data. Still incomplete though, may need some empirical evidence of some of the notes. EDIT: Seems pretty small, need some way to get a bigger image.
Manta Posted May 12, 2010 Posted May 12, 2010 It should, it'll be there on the next post, this is far from done. This 55% thing pops up in the notes for 3C and sledge hammers. Any idea what they mean?
Manta Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 Would it be possible to update the guide with a few more combos links? From the top of my head: Unmagnetised: 360B, 236A, 22D j.B+C, Land, 2B, 2C, 623C... 5A, 5B, 3C, 22D 5A, 5B, 3C, 41236D, 1080D 41236D, (5C, 6A, 2C) 623C... (Ignore some/all bits in brackets if your opponent rebounds too high) 3C (Close), 2B, 2C, 623C... Magnetised: (1 or 2 hit opener)...623C, 623C (Whiff), 6C sjc, j.2C, 2B, 2C, 623C, BGadget ...623C (Into corner) 6C, 623C... Damn, what would us Tagers do without the "2B, 2C, 623C," gatling?
A.X.I.S. Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 just curious I've been looking at the CS frame data and noticed tager got a lot of guard break moves...how come no one goes for some primer smashing? I mean to say if you drop someones primers down to 1 or 2 then they are bound to get stupid/scared/mashy...but then again this is america eh.
Osuna Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Because none of the guard break moves are safe. Hammer, 2C, and 2D aren't Ideal in a block string because of long vulnerable start up and generally aren't that good on block. Also you can recover stocks by running away and zoning tager, which everyone does anyway. Guard breaks aren't as good anymore anyway.
Manta Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Because none of the guard break moves are safe. Hammer, 2C, and 2D aren't Ideal in a block string because of long vulnerable start up and generally aren't that good on block. Also you can recover stocks by running away and zoning tager, which everyone does anyway. Guard breaks aren't as good anymore anyway. Let's not forget that your primers recover the fastest when you're forcing your opponent to block instead, something a lot of characters have little difficulty with. Still, there are a couple of good ways to break them with Tager if your opponent has fallen low on them. 2C, 4D is a gatling I see a good amount on players who can hitconfirm a single 2C. 4D is frame neutral and a little magnetism is nice too. Spark bolt, possibly not the best way to crush the last one (They'll barrier guard it instead) but this is the safest way he has to remove them. MTW has the amusing property of being basically unblockable if the opponent has only one primer left. Actually, that isn't many at all, but then Tager does have the other guard breaking ability which is the classic "Throw the turtle".
Osuna Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 That's another issue with guard break moves aside from spark (Which I don't think you an combo from if you break their guard with it? They bounce weird) Seeing as throws are faster and do more damage than letting them block.. I mean most other characters going for a slow move at least get an overhead property so they can get damage potentially.
Manta Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 As are a lot of Tager's breaker moves, 6B, 6C, 3C etc etc. Tager has it a lot easier than some other characters when it comes to the guard crush, although he doesn't have it as nice as Carl and Lambda. Spark bolt only does wallbounce if you crush them on air hit, standing hits crush as normal. The problem is that the wallbounce from a normal sparkbolt feels different to one from a crush, that's probably what's screwing up the timing.
Leo7 Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Guard primer breaking blockstring posted earlier: 6B > 6B > 6C > Spark 4 primers, if the opponent is hit crouching, you can combo into collider instead of Spark. j.2C RC j.2C (can catch opponent by surprise if they have 2 primers left and are not barrier blocking) Aside from that .... MTW has the amusing property of being basically unblockable if the opponent has only one primer left. Um, not really, only the last hit of MTW breaks a primer, so they won't get damaged by MTW at all, they will just get hit by whatever follow-up you decide to do. Not to mention that any smart player would barrier block to prevent the primer from breaking. Anyways, problems with guard breaking can be summed up like this: - Easy to keep away from Tager = Easy to recover primers - Barrier Blocking = 3+ more guard primer moves - Counter Assault Only times I've ever guard broken opponent is after they bursted and they were not paying attention to their primer count. Otherwise, if you're spamming several guard break moves in a row, it should become extremely obvious to the opponent what you're going for, and they'll adjust accordingly.
Manta Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Guard primer breaking blockstring posted earlier: 6B > 6B > 6C > Spark 4 primers, if the opponent is hit crouching, you can combo into collider instead of Spark. Whilst this technically works, I've had nothing but trouble with using it. Personally, I find 6B 3C 41236D to be a better use of that sitatuation (of course, mixing it up is always good).
A.X.I.S. Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 ah I see thanks...I have some thoughts on guardbreaking but I'm more on the lines of using it as a mind games then actually going all out on smashing them...besides 6B is a funny meaty. also 6A is the worst meaty to time...period.
Leo7 Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Whilst this technically works, I've had nothing but trouble with using it. Personally, I find 6B 3C 41236D to be a better use of that sitatuation (of course, mixing it up is always good). Except 6B doesn't gatling to 3C and 3C isn't special cancellable ...
A.X.I.S. Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 6B gatlings into 6A which is unsafe as hell... also 6B>2C if they are close and not IBing. meaning 2 primers and a frame trap yeeeouch. don't forget you can 3C RC walk 360/720. I seen gali do it in a combo vid...well the 720 at least. sadly its not really all that great in CT but in CS it has potential for a nice tick set up.
Manta Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Except 6B doesn't gatling to 3C and 3C isn't special cancellable ... Really, there was me thinking that I saw 5A, 5B, 3C, 41236D once..... Yeah, Just saw the video, I imagined the 3C all along.
Dacidbro Posted July 14, 2010 Posted July 14, 2010 I think, in general, guard breaking for most characters is only viable post burst. I think this rule is especially true for Tager, who has so many reasons not to guard break from the get go (one buster = 3k w/ mag; Guard break combo = 2.5k-3k w/o mag? profit???) But man, if your opponent bursts twice and only had 4 primers to begin with, Tager starts to feel pretty scary on defense Tager, like most characters, has a lot of great ways to break one primer. Lol.
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