[CS1] Iron Tager Video Thread

[Mike Z]

Well, he got suckered by elbow whiff to 720, so I dunno what kind of experience you were giving him. :^) I guess I was looking for gimmick exp, since I don't play the same as other people.

Also, isn't that purple grab > j.A x n trap the gayest thing ever?

Yeah it's pretty stupid - IB and get hit to escape is your only option. I got out when I fought him in winners', just not on the stream. The corner one is worse. Tager needs a doublejump.

("Gay" is not an acceptable slur while I'm a mod, btw - this is 2010, not 1990. You've been warned.)

[Astaroth136]

Well, he got suckered by elbow whiff to 720, so I dunno what kind of experience you were giving him. :^) I guess I was looking for gimmick exp, since I don't play the same as other people.

Yeah it's pretty stupid - IB and get hit to escape is your only option. I got out when I fought him in winners', just not on the stream. The corner one is worse. Tager needs a doublejump.

("Gay" is not an acceptable slur while I'm a mod, btw - this is 2010, not 1990. You've been warned.)

Well, he certainly didn't fall for any tick throws (which is what I tend to do), but that's when your collider got him.

The "N" word is acceptable in most of these forums, but the "G" one isn't?

I understand your reasoning though.

[Brice]

yay, finally got some recording going on for me...

here's a couple of casual play from a lan party where we were up for 24h, reasons for me to be scrubby.

also, i was on stick on most matches and i'm more of a pad tager strangely, so be hard on me:

tager valk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujMx3NOrhbc

tager valk again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyBRDWfo35s

tager mu : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwnMin-HPQ0

tager mu again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZc00wl2Ers

[A.X.I.S.]

Mike you use gimmicks no one ever use.

you pretty much caught him because he was trying to:

A. auto pilot punish, especially j.2C 720, he honestly thought he could punish you for whiffing it.

B. was trying to autopilot jump out.

I had to start delaying my pokes to catch him jumping.

hey mike I got secret gimmicks, get at me.

[Leo7]

i'll refrain from using the g word as well then.

tager valk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujMx3NOrhbc

you can 720 after the first hit of the "banki messai" super btw, don't have to wait till the end.

[Brice]

@leo : yeah i know i can do it but i don't really like the timing on this, so when the valk can't rapid, i prefer waiting till the last hit because it's easier and with IB i can store some more heat (ok, it was going to kill him anyway but... :P)

[A.X.I.S.]

my only advice: walking is a form of transportation.

anyways I can't really go into much detail because you guys was scrubbing it up/trolling each other so...

[DJ Koopa]

Yeah, I'm back again. I've grown and such, obvious to those that have been watching the stream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34H_X8t99sI <- vs Ragna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQX8rBMP8s <- vs Makoto, Jin, Hakumen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXe4SnPMzN4 <- vs Litchi

...Where do I go from here? More criticisms for me, please.

[GZ-Matthias]

Not that he needed it, but Kyle had quite a bit of experience in fighting Tager. I'm pretty sure he played me, AXIS, and a few other Tagers on Live a lot. That couldn't have hurt...

and plays me in local ranbats / offline a lot. Yes that trap is a bitch, but you just have to mash IB and eat a j.A. Then you can tech on the ground. Is it a bitch that you have to deal with it? Yes. But if you treat it right it won't matter anymore. It's just repetitive and a nuisance but there's no reason to really get hit by it. Though I laugh my ass off every time I manage to not fit an instant block in for some reason and get unblockabled anyway.

The real threats are the corner setups. Especially if they include the gear super.

edit: Also a carl player mentioned trying to see if Tager could do a falling j.C to clash Brio to mess it up somehow. I never got around to testing it with him yet though.

[Overheat]

Yeah, I'm back again. I've grown and such, obvious to those that have been watching the stream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34H_X8t99sI <- vs Ragna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQX8rBMP8s <- vs Makoto, Jin, Hakumen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXe4SnPMzN4 <- vs Litchi

...Where do I go from here? More criticisms for me, please.

Better than before, for sure. In the Litchi match, you did B sledge 6 times in the first 10 seconds, and they were all whiffs... You also do 5C > 6A > AC, which screws your AC loop reps when you do 2B > 2C. Try doing 5C > AC, and 6B > 2C, and that'll make sure the second rep won't blue-beat. Try not to taunt if you mess up stuff as well... A few questionable bursts as well.

[GZ-Matthias]

Yeah, I'm back again. I've grown and such, obvious to those that have been watching the stream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34H_X8t99sI <- vs Ragna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsQX8rBMP8s <- vs Makoto, Jin, Hakumen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXe4SnPMzN4 <- vs Litchi

...Where do I go from here? More criticisms for me, please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34H_X8t99sI#t=3m52s

Overheat said it above. But also, DO NOT DO INVALID COMBOS. In fact you end a lot of your combos completely wrong. This leads to your opponent just getting away from you for free and you don't even regain magnetism. THIS IS BAD. You want to end your combo's either with magnetism or with your opponent still in a position to get mixed up. Of course, both if possible. Gadget finger is an easy way to get this but of course it has it's downfalls. But it's better than just letting your opponent get away for free.

I also caught you do some really weird 720 setup. You did an AC whiff combo, but used the whiffed AC to buffer 720. The issue with this is you have to fire AC before they need to tech. This means they'll always see that you did 720, then they can just neutral tech and jump up to punish you It worked on two players because they for some reason ROLLED. Why they rolled is beyond me. Even weirder is you go for one of these setups in the middle of a combo when the opponent would have died if you just did the combo. Don't go for a reset when you're in the middle of winning the round.

Bullet Points:

- Good improvements since the last time you asked for help

- Think more as you're performing... you still do lots of unsafe things. Using Sledge to travel versus that Litchi stands out as a really bad idea.

- With combo's, try and think about how to end them with your opponent still in an unfavorable position. Don't just keep doing damage (Blue beat invalid combos etc).

- With tech traps, don't go for them when you don't need them. If you have the opportunity, always seal the deal and end the round.

- At one point in one video you do a wake up 720 in the corner. It fails, and you mash out MTW immediately after. Don't do this. It worked, but don't do it. If it failed you would have been punished and out of meter. Luckily your opponent sucked.

The real people that need criticism are your opponents. They're garbage. Seek out better competition. Better players won't fall for most of the resets you were doing. That Litchi let you get away with spamming sledge so much

edit: Damn I didn't realize how long this post was.

[DJ Koopa]

Better than before, for sure. In the Litchi match, you did B sledge 6 times in the first 10 seconds, and they were all whiffs... You also do 5C > 6A > AC, which screws your AC loop reps when you do 2B > 2C. Try doing 5C > AC, and 6B > 2C, and that'll make sure the second rep won't blue-beat. Try not to taunt if you mess up stuff as well... A few questionable bursts as well.

I see... Though, wouldn't 6A > AC be better than 5C > AC? For the magnetism and the pull on contact that is. As for the taunts? I was being cocky 'cause it was the end of the stream and they had already watched me as well as fought with me before, so I was doing some mind games there. Totally pointless and just asking to get punished, I know, but still.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34H_X8t99sI#t=3m52s

Overheat said it above. But also, DO NOT DO INVALID COMBOS. In fact you end a lot of your combos completely wrong. This leads to your opponent just getting away from you for free and you don't even regain magnetism. THIS IS BAD. You want to end your combo's either with magnetism or with your opponent still in a position to get mixed up. Of course, both if possible. Gadget finger is an easy way to get this but of course it has it's downfalls. But it's better than just letting your opponent get away for free.

Yeah, I've been pushing further and further away from Gadget for some reason, opting to try and catch people with the 2D > AC whiff > 360 gimmick. I've actually been trying to turn that into a 2D > AC whiff > AC > xx for a change-up, but it's a tad difficult. I mean, I am playing with Autism here, habitual muscle memory heyhey? >_> I don't like the wake-ups since I'm not quite comfortable with what I have coming despite the frame advantage. Too many invincible-frame moves upon recovery totally nailing me. Inferno Divider... *shudders*

I also caught you do some really weird 720 setup. You did an AC whiff combo, but used the whiffed AC to buffer 720. The issue with this is you have to fire AC before they need to tech. This means they'll always see that you did 720, then they can just neutral tech and jump up to punish you It worked on two players because they for some reason ROLLED. Why they rolled is beyond me. Even weirder is you go for one of these setups in the middle of a combo when the opponent would have died if you just did the combo. Don't go for a reset when you're in the middle of winning the round.

Yeah, if you noticed that the two I did this on, They tend to autopilot tech-mash away, in the air or on the ground. Basically just reading into what I know they're gonna

do then. Even if it's totally unnecessary.

Alternatively, the jin/ragna would NEVER tech as long as I had a loop on him, just because of the whole proration thing on AC and such. What do I do in those situations?

Bullet Points:

- Good improvements since the last time you asked for help

- Think more as you're performing... you still do lots of unsafe things. Using Sledge to travel versus that Litchi stands out as a really bad idea.

- With combo's, try and think about how to end them with your opponent still in an unfavorable position. Don't just keep doing damage (Blue beat invalid combos etc).

- With tech traps, don't go for them when you don't need them. If you have the opportunity, always seal the deal and end the round.

- At one point in one video you do a wake up 720 in the corner. It fails, and you mash out MTW immediately after. Don't do this. It worked, but don't do it. If it failed you would have been punished and out of meter. Luckily your opponent sucked.

-Thank you, I wanted to wait a while before I asked again, to let some things sink in and evolve on their own in my messed up little head.

-I had played that Litchi three times prior, and EVERY SINGLE NEUTRAL STANCE they'd spam that staff kick and any projectile-staff moves, so I intended to spam Bsledge there, just to say "Stop #$%^ing fishing for zoned CH" and such.

-I'm...not too well with thinking on the fly, sadly. :/ I gotta find someone to help drill enders into my head.

-Well, when do you need tech traps? That seems kind of cryptic, if you could clarify please.

-Heh, funny thing is, Ike thinks he's all that, really. And even tends to trash talk about the people giving me advice in this forum.

The real people that need criticism are your opponents. They're garbage. Seek out better competition. Better players won't fall for most of the resets you were doing. That Litchi let you get away with spamming sledge so much

Even funnier, the person who runs the stream (which will actually be up in about half an hour (4-6PM EST) at http://www.justin.tv/peacefuljay) calls these people "pros" and only invites them when he disbands the room and does 5-P.slot to only invite these specific peoples.

[A.X.I.S.]

I'm planning on getting in peaceful jays stream this time around.

there is one thing that bugged me with your matches...you had a very very sloppy approach at certain times.

[Overheat]

I see... Though, wouldn't 6A > AC be better than 5C > AC? For the magnetism and the pull on contact that is.

I'm not entirely sure, but maybe someone else can clear up whether or not you should use 5C > 6A > AC, or just 5C > AC. But start learning GF gimmicks, and start doing 6B > 2C > AC instead of 2B > 2C > AC.

[A.X.I.S.]

don't use 5C>6A, 6A sucks in combo's.

5C>collider is better and you can get 6B>2C>623C>B/Egadget easier.

[Leo7]

go for ac whiff > 6c > j.2c > 2b > 2c > ac combos if you're feeling yourself.

edit: j.d whiff > lowest j.2c combos if you're really feeling yourself imo.

-I had played that Litchi three times prior, and EVERY SINGLE NEUTRAL STANCE they'd spam that staff kick and any projectile-staff moves, so I intended to spam Bsledge there, just to say "Stop #$%^ing fishing for zoned CH" and such.

what staff kick are you talking about. 6b? cause that move doesn't have a projectile property. it's ok to do a psychic sledge to punish some sort of itsuu attempt during a blockstring, but otherwise, you shouldn't be sledging mindlessly.

[evilben]

Alternatively, the jin/ragna would NEVER tech as long as I had a loop on him, just because of the whole proration thing on AC and such. What do I do in those situations?

ummm... id say just keep beating on him until he decides to get out, the longer he stays there the more heat you get, even if you arnt doing damage he's giving you the potential to do more in the future with that heat!

also... gadget finger him, force him to his feet... i know its not great v those DPs.. so maybe end him off with a 2d to get him away where he will tech and still get some good mag on him...

probably wrong here... im sure axis will bullet point out a list of why i should shut up T_T (and he'd be right!)

[A.X.I.S.]

if he doesn't want to tech then just magnetize him, if he already has mag then wait until his character is starting to get up and hit him low, it will reset him.

2D should only be used to get corner, pretty much positioning, lately I've been doing B sledge walk when they have mag so I can punish tech rolls and hit them with meaties on their wake up...6A is my personal favorite because its hard to get around for those who don't have a DP or tao...fucking hate tao.

heat is all good and what not but your job is to present a threat that makes him feel like he has to tech, like air throws.

[Mike Z]

Alternatively, the jin/ragna would NEVER tech as long as I had a loop on him, just because of the whole proration thing on AC and such. What do I do in those situations?

This.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZMq_e_MPKw#t=8m45s

Build heat and go for an airthrow. Airthrow = 2K guaranteed dmg if they are really not hitting anything, or a reset that's good for you.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't get that tech purple throw into 720 setup. Axis tries it to me all the time since I thought the 720 was guaranteed or something if they break it, but that never happens when I tech it.

[Isorropia]

It's just a gimmick. If your opponent breaks the throw and 'holds up', or manages to press an aerial at the precisely wrong time, they get 720d.

If however, they break the throw, then CH tager out of the air, double jump, airdash forward, airdash backwards or change their momentum with a special/aerial, it fails.

So for hakumen, j.c will hit tager clean out of the j.d whiff.

[Mike Z]

First off, my goal was to address "What should I do if they don't tech?" with the answer being: build meter and go for an airthrow, because it forces them to do something or take damage.

Now then, Iso - it is a gimmick, but it's better than you and Mac indicate. If you're getting hit when you try it, you're doing the D too early. Haku j.C and Jin j.C will both hit Tager if he D's right away (although you can j.C clash instead).

The point of the mixup, though, is that you can hit D at the last possible moment, and confirm the 720 if the opponent pressed any button or did nothing. You don't actually need much pull - D is very strong vs air. Your goal is to have them land into the edge of the 720 range, so that a falling normal will whiff through Tager's head before the superflash. In fact, even without any sleep, you'll notice I press D very late, and have recovered by the time a Haku j.C would have been in range.

If, instead, you notice they altered their momentum in some way, it's easy to turn the 720 into a Collider...which at that point is fairly free since they stuck themselves in the air.

Axis - get on that, I expect to see Mac posting that you landed this despite his j.C by next week. (^.^)

Gimmicks get better the more you understand them.

[Soriphen]

Mike Z = my hero. Dat yomi was fukin top tier....shit man....talk about the sexiest gimmick I've seen for Tager.

[A.X.I.S.]

when I play mac he probably won't tech the throw, I usually try to go for a second airthrow but then he decides to tech into a collider pssshaw.

anyways if mac wants to play me he can pm me on here, I am afk on this xbox.

[Hitage]

So I recently placed 5th at a tourney and some of my matches were recorded. I was hoping on some critiques to improve. I'm very aware of dropping my combos at crucial moments and not taking advantage of opportunities in matches. Thats in fact why I ended up losing against that hakumen and placing 5th as you guys will see in my last match. But then again, im not blaming everything on dropped combos, im just disappointed that I actually dropped combos like those. Thats something that shouldn't ever happen. But yea, any tips on some of the match-ups or anything that will help me up my game is much appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUHfjSBW3ss vs Ragna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxwMHazVXQE vs a different Ragna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1rCP3SfMKc vs Hakumen pt1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJOZMVbM4eY vs hakumen pt2 (this match pains my soul so much, HOW DO I MOVE ON?!)

Edited October 27, 2010 by Hitage