A.X.I.S. Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 the trolling wasn't from him, it was from you guys being/acting dumb. dustloop needs to get off that wheel chair logic.
FlyingVe Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Thank you Zong/AXIS, couldn't have said it better myself.
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Unless I'm missing something here, aren't all tier lists made under the assumption that all players who play the characters are of equal skill level? I dunno where all this "adequate vs possibly not adequate" stuff came from. If you want true human factor in tier lists, then why don't we go the Smash route and make tier lists based on who wins tournaments?
eirei Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 If you want true human factor in tier lists, then why don't we go the Smash route and make tier lists based on who wins tournaments? Because in Smash, whoever wins, we lose.
FlyingVe Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Because in Smash, whoever wins, we lose. In Smash it's a 0-0 matchup for humanity.
SimpleKiss Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Personal full of shit matchup chart S: Bang, Litchi A: Hazama, Arakune, Hakumen Ragna B: everyone else. Way on the fucking bottom: Rachel Eat Shit Simplekiss out
Rhiya Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Lol you guys are trolling yourselves wondering if Jiyuna is trolling. He lives in Japan, yes. But he was gdlk when he lived here anyway, it doesn't matter where the fuck he's from. He said something (and explained it in great detail) that makes perfect sense. Learn to read scrubs. The idea that some mirrors are harder and that some are easier makes lots of sense. IT's perfectly comprehendable. IT's when you try to assign matchup numbers to them that it's wonky, since it's a 5-5 matchup regardless of how difficult the mirror is. That's where everyone got lost.
ZONG_one Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I understand same character = 5-5. But if everyone would just read it again, they would understand, I'm sure of it. (Or at least you get it. I would hope the majority can comprehend what he was getting at.) As someone who plays a lot of chars, I understood immediately from his example. Especially since I play Ara and Ragna too. I'm just sayin... get at me.
LunaKage Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I understand same character = 5-5. But if everyone would just read it again, they would understand, I'm sure of it. (Or at least you get it. I would hope the majority can comprehend what he was getting at.) As someone who plays a lot of chars, I understood immediately from his example. Especially since I play Ara and Ragna too. I'm just sayin... get at me. I understood, but one thing is for certain, in Ragna Mirrors, I'm putting my money on Ragna.
ZONG_one Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Someone make a mirror matchup chart. TEAM STICKBUGGGG, ASSEMBL..... nevermind.
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 God, why would you do that Zong. Never again.
SansProtocol Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Basically, he's saying that the overall difficulty of playing a character against the field is helped greatly by not having to change your gameplan in a lot of matches. For example, when someone hates on a god-tier character (we'll say Bang), they usually go "LOL 5A", "LOL two command grabs in the air", or "Those unnatural blockstrings", and they note something seemingly OP'd about the character. Usually, this stems from the fact that the ability or move is applicable to all match-ups and makes it overall useful for your general gameplan. The more of these that can fit into a standard plan of action for a character, the higher he usually is on a tier list, as he will usually beat the field with a better toolbox of moves that others don't have. So because of this fact, the less you have to deviate from plan A in a mirror match, let alone any match-up, the better that character is overall. TL;DR: An assault rifle is usually better to have in most situations than a shotgun or a sniper rifle. Yes, you'll be a monster close-range (Tager) or a long-distance nightmare (Lambda) but 90% of the time, you'll want the all-around good weapon (Bang).
Dacidbro Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Just for the record, the Bang mirror is actually pretty awkward. Because Bang's pressure is so unbelievable but actually has moderate difficulty dealing with his own guardpoints, you have to play the match a lot differently than almost any other character. But once you get your rhythm down to call out the guard points, Bang's defensive options really melt away, and you have an easier time pressuring Bang than almost any other character. Takes a bit of character knowledge, but it's straightforward enough I'd definitely agree with a 5-5
Rhiya Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Basically, he's saying that the overall difficulty of playing a character against the field is helped greatly by not having to change your gameplan in a lot of matches. For example, when someone hates on a god-tier character (we'll say Bang), they usually go "LOL 5A", "LOL two command grabs in the air", or "Those unnatural blockstrings", and they note something seemingly OP'd about the character. Usually, this stems from the fact that the ability or move is applicable to all match-ups and makes it overall useful for your general gameplan. The more of these that can fit into a standard plan of action for a character, the higher he usually is on a tier list, as he will usually beat the field with a better toolbox of moves that others don't have. So because of this fact, the less you have to deviate from plan A in a mirror match, let alone any match-up, the better that character is overall. TL;DR: An assault rifle is usually better to have in most situations than a shotgun or a sniper rifle. Yes, you'll be a monster close-range (Tager) or a long-distance nightmare (Lambda) but 90% of the time, you'll want the all-around good weapon (Bang). I think everyone got that. The leap was when he was saying difficult mirrors could count as a 35-65 for the matchup chart, because of how much more effort is required for a difficult mirror than a cake one like Ragna's. If I'm getting this right, it was a suggestion that involved including ease of use as a factor in the tier list created by the matchup chart.
Mightfo Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) Those unnatural blockstrings synthetic blockstrings genetically modified blockstrings lab reject blockstrings biomechanical blockstrings fucking abomination blockstrings industrial blockstrings frankenstrings playing-god-strings Edited November 4, 2010 by Mightfo
Zidane Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Can we use these past couple of pages as a template of what users to ban? Better yet, can I get banning powers?
Dacidbro Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 ... Talking about banning? I used to think you were NJ, Zidane. Now IJDK
A.X.I.S. Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Can we use these past couple of pages as a template of what users to ban? Better yet, can I get banning powers? we can't ban dumb people. but we can just troll them. wait I can't troll too much now. bawl.
Synthesis Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 For those of you still confused, here's an example: Let's say you're playing a Rachel mirror. It is technically 5-5. But what if your style of playing Rachel is rushdown, while his is zoning? What would the matchup look like? (This isn't accurate, just an example) The matchup is 4-6 for the person who is rushing down. What if Rachel switches to zoning? The matchup switches: 6 - 4 for the zoning rushdown Rachel. Why? Because she can do both proficiently. What if the other Rachel starts to play a turtling/zoning Rachel? And then switches to rushdown? With characters that can do multiple things, they can react to the other player and change fight patterns to make the life of the other player harder, but switching and mixing up playstyles to account for the others' playstyle makes this match more difficult than 5-5, and thus should be considered in tier list placement, because there is the chance that you can come up against another Rachel, and that matchup will NOT be even because you don't know how the opponent plays, and you must adjust and fluctuate to where the character doesn't feel the same. An example would be Mu v Mu. This matchup is 6 - 4 Mu's favor, on whoever gets momentum first coupled in with other factors.
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 You don't know how the opponent plays. That would be a valid argument, if it weren't for the fact that you aren't the sole player. The opponent is also under the same stresses as you. In a Mu matchup like you said, the advantage goes to whichever one gains momentum first. But the chance to get that momentum is EQUAL FOR BOTH PLAYERS. Thus, still 5-5.
HiagoX Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I have to thank Jiyuna for the explanation. The more you know~
Synthesis Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Regardless of chance, you can't risk throwing things out that will give you the momentum, and thus the fight feels harder than even, because if you make a mistake you'll pay for it. Because of this, you limit your own options. This is just like Mu's matchup with taokaka: Because Taokaka limits her oki and limits her pokes, the matchup is bad. Now, if your mirror limits your options, the will make the matchup against you, regardless if they are limited too. They feel the limitations on themselves, too, but they can't possibly know how the matchup feels for you. They can only tell how it feels for themselves, and so it feels 6-4, and their perception in this case determines the matchup.
ZONG_one Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I have to thank Jiyuna for the explanation. The more you know~ Lol. I like everyone re-explaining what Jiyuna said, only making it more complicated. Reading something twice to understand it is infinitely better than reading 100 different second hand interpretations of the original.
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