BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[bbq sauce]

I know what he means by certain mirrors are harder than others. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that you can't use matchup statistics and odds like 7-3 or 4-6 or whatever to determine the difficulty of the mirror. In terms of statistics, mirrors are always equal. Now, if we made a mirror ranking chart, with the hardest mirror being a 10 and the least hardest being a 1, that would be a much better way of doing things.

Well than think of it this way.

Hard matcup = harder to win match up = you lose more often than an "easy" one.

Tier list takes into account your match ups.

When you're mirror is a "hard" mirror, it acts as a bad match in your match up chart.

Thus it factors you down small bit as a character, opposed to say, a character with the same average in match up points, with an easy mirror.

Isn't every mirror ever 5-5 due to the fact that even if you lose or gain an option or a specific combo, the other person loses/gains it as well. A difficulty rating could work though. Maybe we should put that for all matchups that are 5-5.

Mathmatically, yes.

But, when you play against a character who shuts down an option, you're playing essentially, an incomplete character. The first paragraph in the below sums it up the best way possible.

I'll try explaining again for you and anyone else who's interested in advanced character analysis- you're saying a 5-5 matchup between two different characters is the same as any mirror match in the game. Japan is saying that for a "normal" mirror match, this holds true- just play your character, and the better player will win. For a difficult mirror (which you say is the same as any other matchup), you need to play very differently and you lose a lot of your tools which make up the foundation of your character- when this happens, luck becomes a much larger factor in the matchup compared to the "normal" 5-5 mirrors. And if you've played fighting games for a while, you know that gimmicky/lucky/dice-roll characters are always ranked lower due to lack of stability. (Fuerte, Satsuki, grapplers in general).

So yes, congratulations on using your logic and ability to add + divide, but that's not what the Japanese are saying about mirror matches. Characters with a bad mirror like Arakune have much less control over the match, are much more likely to get randomed out, and therefor the Japanese take that into consideration when ranking them overall. If you still don't believe me, come to Japan and watch the way the best players counter-pick each other- no one ever counter picks Mame's Ragna with Ragna, but people always lose to Hima Arakune and then counter with Arakune (and win way more than they should).

Edited November 5, 2010 by bbq sauce

[farranpoison]

Well than think of it this way.

Hard matcup = harder to win match up = you lose more often than an "easy" one.

Tier list takes into account your match ups.

When you're mirror is a "hard" mirror, it acts as a bad match in your match up chart.

Thus it factors you down small bit as a character, opposed to say, a character with the same average in match up points, with an easy mirror.

The problem is, again, you aren't the only player. If it's just harder for you to win, then yes, the matchup is less in your favor. But wait, the opponent is also feeling like it's a bad matchup. So it evens out in terms of odds. Now real life will play out differently, yes. But as I keep saying, this is a matchup chart based on odds for each player in a matchup.

[Remiri]

Well than think of it this way.

Hard matcup = harder to win match up = you lose more often than an "easy" one.

Tier list takes into account your match ups.

When you're mirror is a "hard" mirror, it acts as a bad match in your match up chart.

Thus it factors you down small bit as a character, opposed to say, a character with the same average in match up points, with an easy mirror.

Mathmatically, yes.

But, when you play against a character who shuts down an option, you're playing essentially, an incomplete character. The first paragraph in the below sums it up the best way possible.

Therefore it requires a different chart, as you are comparing say a ragna mirror to an arakune mirror...using the standard match-up chart already states that it doesn't include mirrors so that chart should say 'N/A' for the mirrors.

[Dacidbro]

Farran you are fucking RETARDED

That's all

And for anyone else that forgot to actually read the thread or read it and completely disregarded the most important parts, having a confusing/tricky/impossibly difficult/erratic mirror DOES make your character worse, so it DOES deserve a legitimate matchup number because it DOES represent the strength of your character.

[Jourdal]

Damn...this is like smoosh arguing with Zidane about Hazama all over again....

[Remiri]

The current chart doesn't support the notion of a 60-40 mirror as there is just one window. Just Sayin'

[Sophisticat]

Farran you are fucking RETARDED

That's all

And for anyone else that forgot to actually read the thread or read it and completely disregarded the most important parts, having a confusing/tricky/impossibly difficult/erratic mirror DOES make your character worse, so it DOES deserve a legitimate matchup number because it DOES represent the strength of your character.

We all get that. The problem is, these factors apply to both players since both use the same character. How do you account for that? Difficulty is the only valid criteria so far since it's a player factor as character factors cancel themselves out.

Therefore, mirrors should be assigned their own chart because they don't operate in the same way.

[natearistata]

God, every single thread I've read in this particular section of the forums always gets some streak of posts that make me want to kill myself.

This shit is ridiculous.

[huey253]

chillllll, this isn't flame wars z.

it seems the main arguement isn't that people aren't believing jiyuna, but more of people questioning if that number belongs in our current ideaology of a matchup chart, which is pretty questionable. calling people retarded over an opinion is kinda harsh, even if you think they deserve it.

I understand this concept of 6-4 mirror matches, but i think some people are arguing that statistically it should be 5-5. The problem with that is that this chart isn't based on statistics, but rather how a couple of players feel about each individual matchup, which isn't neccesarily wrong.

/end serious post

5A

[Black Onslaught]

I want to know why you gay babies are qqing so hard over shit that'll be irrelevant in a month

some form of saying stay free goes here

[Remiri]

Stayin free since page 294

[Dacidbro]

It's not a problem. Just put it in the chart. Everyone should understand that mirrors are even, but not necessarily good for the character.

[farranpoison]

Can someone make a tier list thread? Please? Where Tao is obviously S tier because she won SBO.

[Remiri]

I would highly recommend considering different nomenclature for this. No one in this thread should say that a 60-40 ragna vs ragna makes sense, it fucking doesn't. I AGREE WITH THE CONCEPT, but call it something else ffs.

Can someone make a tier list thread? Please? Where Tao is obviously S tier because she won SBO.

I may be new to posting here, but this is either retarded or an attempt to troll.

[Black Onslaught]

5A

Why isn't this man a Bang co-mod

[huey253]

since this matchup chart ISNT based on statistics, it actually makes sense to throw those numbers in.

otherwise, it would make everything inconsistant...

dustloop is so great...

[Dacidbro]

I seriously don't get it, everyone wants Japanese insight until it's actually there, then it's discredited as a foreign thought.

Who knew

[huey253]

I seriously don't get it, everyone wants Japanese insight until it's actually there, then it's discredited as a foreign thought.

Who knew

suprise!

[A.X.I.S.]

OMFG!! you guys are still arguing over this!? my god when will dustloop ever grow up?

I am facekeyboarding because these people arguing over something so...so fucking AH!

WHY DUSTLOOP WHY!? WHY CAN'T WE SQUASH THE BEEF!!?

WHY CAN'T WE JUST DROP IT AND FORGET THIS HAPPENED!?

DAMMIT JIYUNA!

[Black Onslaught]

he threw fucking sugoi infront of it, what more do you people want

yo is this thread going to be deleted when CS2 comes out

[natearistata]

this thread should be kept forever for people of the future to come back to and facepalm at

[Remiri]

since this matchup chart ISNT based on statistics, it actually makes sense to throw those numbers in.

otherwise, it would make everything inconsistant...

dustloop is so great...

How would you just throw those numbers in? Its 2 numbers in a single instance, or are you going to come up with a differential equation for the BBCS matchup chart. haha

[huey253]

Bang forums are so GDLIKE, that i know i couldn't do as good as a job that the current moderators are doing.

shoutouts to bang mods, stay gdlike.

you guys act like there will be a matchup chart the week CS2 comes out. It probably won't even be discussed for over a month due to people learning their characters again.

even then, there has been no notice of when the US will get the dlc anyways, so don't get excited.

I HATE DIFF EQ

[farranpoison]

since this matchup chart ISNT based on statistics, it actually makes sense to throw those numbers in.

otherwise, it would make everything inconsistant...

dustloop is so great...

Except for that fact that it is. :8/:

Someone needs to edit this thread's name into "Go into here and find yo sig"

[huey253]

but it isn't, st1ckbug and co came up with opinions for each of the matchups....

stay free :3