BlazBlue CS: Tier list

[Jourdal]

Aren't there only about 3 people qualified to actually be discussing this?

[whitevoid]

S Litchi Bang > Hazama

A Arakune Carl > Hakumen Ragna Tao

B Jin Lambda > Noel

C Tager > Tsubaki Rachel

based on japanese tier list, jBBS/wiki (via LK), alzarath, myself.

I like this list. Though I'm not super sold on Hazama being S as opposed to A, but I definitely can see why people think that. But in my eyes he's more A, it's just that unlike the other A tiers he is stable across the field (unlike Carl and Arakune) and has greater potential to go broke (Hakumen). This essentially gives him the characteristics that those A tier characters lack which would place them in S, but imo he's still closer to A tier characters then the S tier characters.

But like Henaki said, pretty much irrelevant. I like giving props for Noel being B tier, as she's not as terrible as most people like to think. She's solid, she just lacks anything really amazing or cheap to crutch on.

[zeth07]

Why exactly do we even need a discussion for Tier Lists if we are just going to go by what the Japanese Tier List says anyway? Isn't it kinda pointless to discuss why the tiers are the way they are, if the Dustloop community/BB players can't even form their own Tier List for the game?

Or even if the "credible" Dustloop players did come up with a Tier List based on "American BlazBlue", there still wouldn't need to be any discussion if the discussion is ignored anyway and only the opinions of "top players" are taken into consideration.

Thus, why do we need to discuss the Tier Lists, if the discussion isn't even used?

Discussion of the match-ups can just go in the match-up threads in the character forums right? It's like if someone came up with logical arguments for certain match-ups/placement, it wouldn't change the tier lists because it's just one opinion and who's to decide if that person's opinion is worth anything anyway.

[whitevoid]

Someone tell me why Lambda is apparently in the same tier as Jin now.

And people who don't main characters should stop trying to argue with the people who do main the characters. :8/:

I used to wonder that too, but when you look at who's in A it makes sense. She just doesn't ever get as absurd as the A tier characters can get.

[Dorian]

I'd say inb4hugepointlessdiscussion but I'm 2 pages to late.

The list looks more or less correct, and just as well; if tier lists were official then it WOULD be set in stone. People seem to forget this is all based on OPINIONS, granted, they are informed opinions, but opinions none the less.

I'm still waiting for the whole "Wahhh wahhh hazama hakumen carl and arakune are to OP now wahhh", but of course people will still bitch about rags.

[huey253]

it seems like Ragna and Bang have slightly favorable matchups againist hazama

(not sure about litchi but probably the same)

i believe that hakumen and hazama are around similiar levels in matchups etc, but hazama has more tools.

i personally think they are around the same spot though.

[mundus]

I think Hazama might actually have slight favor vs Litchi, her biggest (probably only) weakness is that once your in on her, her defense is mediocre, i've even seen Litchi's get bodied by Tager, cause he is pressuring her without her staff and even with that she only has one reversal. The problem with Litchi though, i actually getting close to her since her godlike range, Hazama doesn't have that problem. Also her corner traps are risky if you are sitting on 50 heat.

[smooshman]

others...others like ice car gay freak and poor Rachel, she deserve more than this, much more than "ice car gay freak"....

What the fuck is this supposed to mean?

[Spirit Juice]

JP tier lists > American tier lists. Henaki is also pretty biased lol. There is no way I would ever put Hazama at S tier, but A+ or A does sound reasonable.

[Blade]

I'd like to hear where Makoto lies in JP opinion, but they may not care about her.

[St1ckBuG]

These threads are good... they're always filled with idiots that obviously have no idea what they're talking about. If you're going to try and say something supporting your opinion, before you press 'submit' or 'post quick reply', take a couple seconds and FUCKING READ your thoughts that you just typed.

If anyone says what Zidane says is wrong, you're only making yourself look more like an idiot. He understands the game on a level that you wish you did. Stop making yourself look like a scrub by not using common sense when it comes to BB and fighting games in general.

Also, I wouldn't compare Jin to Lambda but I will tell you why she is in her respected tier:

Bang walks over her: nails destroy her neutral game, she has no solid reversal to get out of his mixup/pressure/oki game, and since she can't keep him away (he rapes her up close) it only makes matters worse.

Litchi walks all over her: same reasons as above but probably worse... staff/fastfall ruins her neutral game and you only need to get hit 2-3 times.

Hazama walks all over her: chains destroy her neutral game and his normals rape her. He's a combination of Bang and Litchi.

Ragna is tough but do-able: keeping him out can be a guessing games at times, but if you condition him to take chances you can win. Once he's in his normals walk all over her... 2-3 combos and you're dead.

Hakumen is doable: DON'T GET HIT. He can just turtle and make the next hit hurt... a lot.

Tao is just better all around except for not having a reversal, but Lambda just has a hard time getting in the hits (in Tao vs. Lambda that is).

Arakune: not a bad matchup for Lambda but his damage output is far beyond Lambda's, keeping him higher up the list.

Jin: his average damage isn't that great but he makes up for it by being good all-around. He's about as average as they come.

And this is where Lambda is, but for different reasons. She gets wrecked by characters that have an easy time getting in (or can just turtle), and her damage relies on where you are in the stage. Her good damage starters are generally risky and her mixup is mediocre. Her strength is trying to force opponents to make bad decisions and then capitalizing. She's 1/2 way between an awesome character and a shitty one. She's better than everyone below her, even with Jin, but worse than everyone above her, even if by just a smidge.

If that doesn't help explain why I don't know what will.

[Afrikaan]

I'd like to hear where Makoto lies in JP opinion, but they may not care about her.

I'd say they have no reason to until CS2 hits arcades.

And for the love of god can ArcSys please actually loketest shit this time around? We don't need shit like Makoto's parry loop or Rachel in general happening ever again.

[farranpoison]

Rachel was loketested.

Look how that turned out. :8/:

[Senkei]

I don't think Arakune should be that high. I just think you scrubs shouldn't be getting cursed so much lol. But that's more of an American problem if you ask me(defense and movement). I can see how his placement seems justified by his sometimes amazing damage output, but in all reality he's not as consistantly powerful as the big boys around him.

People just oogle over that giant red bar and 100+ hits that happen when he's cleaned up and they say OMFG broke....

[Afrikaan]

Rachel was loketested.

Look how that turned out. :8/:

To their credit, the Rachel they put out is twice as good as the Rachel they initially showed at the 1st Loke Test.

[Sneakman]

To their credit, the Rachel they put out is twice as good as the Rachel they initially showed at the 1st Loke Test.

.....dude...

Also Hazama being S- tier seems about right IMO...freakin' Baiken

[Mumm-Ra]

I'm not really sure about Hazama and Ragna basically switching places, I actually think they made a typo in that last japanese tier list, but I don't play either characters, so I wouldn't know.

I don't think Arakune should be that high. I just think you scrubs shouldn't be getting cursed so much lol. But that's more of an American problem if you ask me(defense and movement). I can see how his placement seems justified by his sometimes amazing damage output, but in all reality he's not as consistantly powerful as the big boys around him.

People just oogle over that giant red bar and 100+ hits that happen when he's cleaned up and they say OMFG broke....

As a Arakune main I think that Arakune being A tier, unlike before when he was B tier, makes sense. Its not because he can deal 14k+ damage, but the fact that he has enough setups to do such atrocities. The only thing that keeps him outside of S tier is how bad he is outside of Fever (he might not be unplayable, but he is bad), and the change in the curse system. He wasn't S tier in CT because he had the highest damage in the game, but because of how easy it was for him to obtain curse and deal his high average damage combos (5k into recurse and "oki").

Arakune: not a bad matchup for Lambda but his damage output is far beyond Lambda's, keeping him higher up the list.

"Not a bad matchup for Lambda"? I might not be japanese but I'm not really sure that saying "not a bad matchup for Lambda" is correct, I'd rather say "A good matchup for Lambda".

When using Arakune and playing against Lambda you suddenly turn into Tager from my experiences, you get shut down almost completely, waiting for the Lambda player to mess up. It might not be as bad as before (I've got actual nightmares about Arakune vs. Nu), but its definitely better than "Not a bad matchup for Lambda".

I'm still waiting for the whole "Wahhh wahhh hazama hakumen carl and arakune are to OP now wahhh", but of course people will still bitch about rags.

Arakune being called OP "now"? He was being called broken since Arcade release .

[MisterBadguy]

We don't need shit like Makoto's parry loop or Rachel in general happening ever again.

Parry loop was intended. If it were not, then the parry animation simply would not cancel into normals. Even if it wasn't it's far from unfair. Stop bitching about it. I'm sorry, but I'm still finding it fucking amazing that people seem to think Makoto was just slapped together without thought.

Compare:

Belial edge: 4k+, 50 heat, true oki.

Parry loop: 4k+, 50 heat, May use that heat to increase damage to 5k~ but sacrifice oki, or keep the heat, and get the same oki everyone else gets.

Makoto's real damage comes off her fatals, and corner combos, which WERE intended, and can hit over 7k, but I don't hear anyone bitching about that.

What Rachel did in the last game WAS unintended, and she actually deserved almost every nerf she got, just maybe not all of them at the same time.

[GenoWhirl]

Inb4Makoto gets 50% repeat proration on 5CC

[farranpoison]

Inb4Makoto gets 50% repeat proration on 5CC

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT ;_;

Just take out parry loop, Makoto without it is still good.

[Seifuuku]

Parry loop was intended. If it were not, then the parry animation simply would not cancel into normals. Even if it wasn't it's far from unfair. Stop bitching about it. I'm sorry, but I'm still finding it fucking amazing that people seem to think Makoto was just slapped together without thought.

Compare:

Belial edge: 4k+, 50 heat, true oki.

Parry loop: 4k+, 50 heat, May use that heat to increase damage to 5k~ but sacrifice oki, or keep the heat, and get the same oki everyone else gets.

Makoto's real damage comes off her fatals, and corner combos, which WERE intended, and can hit over 7k, but I don't hear anyone bitching about that.

What Rachel did in the last game WAS unintended, and she actually deserved almost every nerf she got, just maybe not all of them at the same time.

i don't think parry loop would exist if parry had something like 214x for command.. for something with a 46 command to be not cancel-able into anything would be very stupid

[St1ckBuG]

"Not a bad matchup for Lambda"? I might not be japanese but I'm not really sure that saying "not a bad matchup for Lambda" is correct, I'd rather say "A good matchup for Lambda".

When using Arakune and playing against Lambda you suddenly turn into Tager from my experiences, you get shut down almost completely, waiting for the Lambda player to mess up. It might not be as bad as before (I've got actual nightmares about Arakune vs. Nu), but its definitely better than "Not a bad matchup for Lambda".

not bad = good? I understand what you're getting at but... there was no reason post.

Also, I forgot about Carl, but we all know how he can also shut down Lambda's neutral game. I hope I don't have to explain.

[Afrikaan]

.....dude...

Also Hazama being S- tier seems about right IMO...freakin' Baiken

No like seriously, imagine the Rachel we have now not able to move George with wind and even worse wind gain and damage.

That's the Rachel from the 1st loketest.

[GenoWhirl]

*shiver* SHE HAD A PUMPKIN GAUGE

[Mumm-Ra]

not bad = good? I understand what you're getting at but... there was no reason post.

I might have misunderstood, I replaced "not bad" with "even" in my mind, when its obviously a favorable matchup for Lambda.