BBCS II Loctest Discussion ~not "Complaining"~

[Blade]

I've thought about this for a long time, and while I agree in concept, I disagree in practice. Think about it. We have two series here (GG/BB) that are so diverse that there is practically no hope of ever making things completely even. We can get close, but things will most likely never even out completely. Now, assuming we get close, which characters would you rather be on the top end? The easy ones or the difficult ones? If we have to have a top and a bottom, I think it only makes sense to have the difficult ones at the top and the easy ones at the bottom. It encourages diverse play. Beginners could jump on low and still be effective (assuming the game is reasonably balanced), and advanced players would get an edge for working extra hard. If things were the other way, you would only have an incentive for both beginners and veterans to play ez modo. There would be little to no incentive to play the other characters, tier-wise.

As much as I thought about this, I considered the idea that characters could have "easy mediocre damage combos" and "hard high damage combos". Working for that extra damage is fine and all, but it shouldn't prevent the character from being playable by beginners altogether. That's why I think characters like Ragna can have easy combos of decent damage, and Hazama can have easy combos that are decent as well...but their higher damage combos could be more diverse. Even if they play differently, that shouldn't change their damage output on easy combos which could be consistent across the board at the very least. Lambda has a few easy combos but they aren't that rewarding, so making something that is easy and at least moderately rewarding, would be ideal.

It would be the harder combos that decide how ultimately effective they are damage-wise in that case.

Also, did not know Mike Z. was a contributor....keep up the good work, Mike!

[psycofang2]

apparently they add new fx (hakumen)

so they kill something good that he had (jD) and give him snow glitter? thats...thats just...im gonna go now...

[SimpleKiss]

I've thought about this for a long time, and while I agree in concept, I disagree in practice. Think about it. We have two series here (GG/BB) that are so diverse that there is practically no hope of ever making things completely even. We can get close, but things will most likely never even out completely. Now, assuming we get close, which characters would you rather be on the top end? The easy ones or the difficult ones? If we have to have a top and a bottom, I think it only makes sense to have the difficult ones at the top and the easy ones at the bottom. It encourages diverse play. Beginners could jump on low and still be effective (assuming the game is reasonably balanced), and advanced players would get an edge for working extra hard. If things were the other way, you would only have an incentive for both beginners and veterans to play ez modo. There would be little to no incentive to play the other characters, tier-wise.

I'll be damned if I lose to someone who can do combos easy but don't know what the fuck they're doing. I'm just saying, that knowing what parts of Ragnas blockstring against you is unsafe is more useful information down the road. So maybe Mr. Scrub or new player or whatever can do all his combos.

Great, does he even know when to use them? Nope. He doesn't. And he won't get a chance to use them either.

[Nobus3r1]

so they kill something good that he had (jD) and give him snow glitter? thats...thats just...im gonna go now...

Hey, while IRL glitter may be the herpes of the craft world digital glitter is there to distract your opponent from your true intentions.

[Blade]

I'll be damned if I lose to someone who can do combos easy but don't know what the fuck they're doing. I'm just saying, that knowing what parts of Ragnas blockstring against you is unsafe is more useful information down the road. So maybe Mr. Scrub or new player or whatever can do all his combos.

Great, does he even know when to use them? Nope. He doesn't. And he won't get a chance to use them either.

I can appreciate that but...that has more to do with setups than the actual combos themselves. So if you get hit with Ice Car and get combo'd for it...that'd be your own fault. Not the fault of the scrub.

Fight someone playing in Beginner Mode and you'll see what I mean.

[psycofang2]

they'll be getting back up from snow glitter after getting hit by snow glitter...i can FEEL the twilight jokes coming. it may not happen now but it will happen...eventually.

and if they add glitter fx to an awesome move now making it somewhat...yeah not going there. they better add flaming hell fxs to shippu. summers advance = fire. do it.

[Blade]

they'll be getting back up from snow glitter after getting hit by snow glitter...i can FEEL the twilight jokes coming. it may not happen now but it will happen...eventually.

and if they add glitter fx to an awesome move now making it somewhat...yeah not going there. they better add flaming hell fxs to shippu. summers advance = fire. do it.

Jin is homo for Ragna anyway...so face the music.

[Caruru]

Trust me, you don't. Like Skye said, the game would be boring and stale. Not every character can be tournament viable, that's just how FGs are, I think not enough people are willing to accept that.

lol what an outdated mentality

Tell this to T6 or AH3 players - where everyone is tournament viable. Plus both games are fun :p

Intopic: please, make Tsubaki good. Make the blind person viable.

[Xtra_Zero]

Back on topic, I want to know why they're messing with Carl. Imo Carl was just about perfect in terms of balance.

[Seifuuku]

>nerf top 2

>only slightly nerf what some people consider next top 4 (hazama carl arakune hakumen)

reasonable.. it was a small nerf in the first place and he gained an extra gatling (5b 2b 5b)

[Mekki-Maru]

Someone reading Dustloop for the first time would think most of you had never seen a loctest before. Fuck.

I'm all for Bang and Litchi having shorter combos. Shorter combos and more damage in general would be cool.

[Dacidbro]

I dunno, I think Bang got realllll lucky if all he lost was FRKZ loops, some of the 5B bullshit, speed on a couple moves and wallbounce. Lol.

[Afrikaan]

I dunno, I think Bang got realllll lucky if all he lost was FRKZ loops, some of the 5B bullshit, speed on a couple moves and wallbounce. Lol.

Assuming Bang>Litchi, It's kinda ironic that Bang got hit the least, yet Ragna got absolutely smattered with nerfs. So much for America's big 3 :/

[mundus]

Assuming Bang>Litchi, It's kinda ironic that Bang got hit the least, yet Ragna got absolutely smattered with nerfs. So much for America's big 3 :/

Apart from his damage and the fact that his BNBs is much easier now, he didn't get that big of a change from CT to CS, so big changes aren't needed to make him balanced imo.

Edit. By more damage i meant longer combos, if anyone gonna start listing everything that was changed about him.

[Xtra_Zero]

Unless I'm missing something, no wallbounce hurts Bang real bad. I'd say Litchi got off easier.

[SimpleKiss]

I can appreciate that but...that has more to do with setups than the actual combos themselves. So if you get hit with Ice Car and get combo'd for it...that'd be your own fault. Not the fault of the scrub.

Fight someone playing in Beginner Mode and you'll see what I mean.

What is this... I don't even... It's like you're agreeing with me but you're not.

And the only time I ever get hit by naked icecar is online when it's laggy as fuck. Naked Icecar gets IB'd and punished on reaction almost everytime someone does it to me. Shit, I think that's one of the very first things x-box live taught me do (instant block punish icecar.)

Beginner mode Noel *is* annoying... until you just start blocking and grab her

[Seifuuku]

doesn't bang have a few 3k+ damage combos that don't use wallbounce? iirc something like 5a 5b 6c j2d 5d jb jc

[Jourdal]

doesn't bang have a few 3k+ damage combos that don't use wallbounce? iirc something like 5a 5b 6c j2d 5d jb jc

Yeah he does have some good damage combos that dont require wall bounce. But....all dem daifunka setups ;__;

[Varamathras]

doesn't bang have a few 3k+ damage combos that don't use wallbounce? iirc something like 5a 5b 6c j2d 5d jb jc

No, pretty much all his damaging combos involve at least 1wallbounce.

[Leo7]

What's wrong with 2C? :razz: It hits behind Tager after all.

Late reply but:

Slow start-up + late invincible frames = situational and pre-emptive anti-air. I also don't like how easy it is to bait (IB + barrier lol). Very rewarding though.

But Tager needs a twitch anti-air (2A being the closest, but the hitbox is too situational).

Also, I thought Hyper Fighting was the best SF game :razz:

[Ben Reed]

@Bang changes:

Obviously something had to give with his meterless damage, and I do hope there's a more meaningful tradeoff between damage and seals now.

That said, I'm not entirely convinced that many of the problems Bang posed for lower-tier characters couldn't be changed by simply changing the proration on certain of his combo-centric moves, and of course some sort of nerf to 5A couldn't hurt (probably not a +1 frame to startup, as that might cascade a bit too radically with other things, but perhaps cutting off a chunk of its attack hitbox couldn't hurt; as it stands it has fairly ludicrous range for its speed and ability to stuff pokes AND start combos). People bitch about the wallbounce combos, but I really would hate to see them go; at the risk of making people burst blood vessels, I LIKED Bang's firepunch-centric combos a lot better than his more technical but toothless CT combos. I would much rather see them retained and toned the hell down rather than taken out altogether. CS Bang was one of the first rushdown characters I found in BB who actually fit my style (and the bursting begins!), it would kinda suck to see him reverted to CT mode. But we'll see.

The 5B nerf is warranted, I think. No complaints there.

Ashura nerfs seem kinda premature and I have to wonder if they'll stay. The fact that it was safe on block in CS was a little ??, but otherwise it did low enough damage (for Bang, anyway) and granted little enough advantage (-1 on hit, it was nothing BUT an escape tool or emergency combo filler for the kill) that I don't think it warrants much nerfing beyond perhaps making it punishable if baited (if only to put it in line with pretty much every other reversal super in the game).

I really don't get all the comments about forcing people to "play creatively" with a CT-mode Bang over a CS-mode Bang. Did Bang get disproportionate damage for basic/meterless setups in CS? Yeah, there's no getting around that. Was playing him brute-force with no regard for spacing/bumper trickery/fancy seal combos to build for FRKZ the ONLY way to play him? Hell no, and as CS play evolves here in America, we're beginning to see that it's just as true here as in Japan (all self-deprecating humor notwithstanding). I for one see no need to emasculate Bang's fire-punch manliness where simply handing him a few tabs of Prozac would suffice (he is a little wound up, after all). But again, we'll see. It's still unclear exactly WHAT they're doing to firepunch wallbounce mechanics from the translation.

@Tager

Well, nobody really expected any radical changes anyway. I do get a little apprehensive thinking about changes of ANY kind to Collider, though. The move already vastly improved for CS in terms of whiff Collider combos and raw Collider combos, to the point where I can't imagine it getting much better -- but I CAN imagine ASW making it WORSE (intentionally or unintentionally).

S-tier Tager would be ludicrous, but it would be nice to see him in A for a little bit. Put the fear of magnetic God into people who got too comfortable with Tager as nothing but a very interesting and tantalizingly fat hitbox. The scrub rage would be erection-inducing, it would be that great.

@Makoto

She'll be fine without parry loop, I think, as long as she still gains meter at a decent rate. Corner D loops (well, "loop" isn't really the word, but I can't really think of a better term) have plenty of options, and she seems to have plenty of ways to push people to the corner. Probably not S-tier, but she doesn't seem to be in any danger of being low tier.

@Valk

I have only one-and-a-half words for Wolfman Jack: STAY GDLK. This guy, like Bang, is so cool that he deserves to be S-tier. Cool old butler guy that turns into a fuckin' wolf and does 4k damage for a fat lot of nothing? Mayhaps I've finally found my alternative to Hakumen/Tager/CS Bang (who is my favorite of the three but is going the way of the dinosaurs...which is a shame because I've always loved dinosaurs).

[NumeroGaijin]

too bad that hardly applied much to ragna

[Linear04]

wait i thought only heavenly pheonix doesnt wall bounce?

does it apply to the ground one too?

[seyu]

i missed a few pages, so i hope this wasnt covered yet.

just saw this in the news thread

CH 2C, 1D, 6A, Lilly, j.2C lvl3 bounce, summon George, 3C(1), Sword Iris, 6C, j.C, land, j.C, j.C, A-Lobelia 5350 damage

is 2C a FC or something? hope they dont overdo it with rachel again

[NumeroGaijin]

same thing dacid said