[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

5C > 623AA > j.2C > 5C > Gurren > hop 5A > hop juggle? Or maybe j.B > j.2A > j.C

[Sophisticat]

Well, this should still work:

[starter] -> Renka(G) -> IAD j.B -> j.A -> etc.

So not all his corner carry is gone...

[dioxideUniversa]

4c unchanged

sob

at least make it not CH through the entire move. ):

why would you waste meter for a shitty enma combo when renka kishuu does like so much more lol

I didn't get the impression that Renka Kishuu combos would still be worth doing with the current changes on the table, but it's not as if we've seen any numbers / those numbers aren't final anyway.

Edited August 7, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[xlolxlolx]

well who knows maybe j.a>j.b is still possible, but having bonus proration is always good tho

but if combos are gonna be really short midscreen then....renka guren i guess?

Edited August 8, 2012 by xlolxlolx

[Darkside937]

The more I hear, the more I'm losing interest in BBCP. If they go the "nerf everything remotely good while giving one or two minor buffs to compensate" route yet again, I won't be wasting my time on this game.

GG is balanced as the entire cast has at least a few very strong tools, leaving no one truly disadvantaged. BB does the opposite by making sure all characters suck equally via beating everyone over the head with nerfs, like it's transcended regular pillow fighter status to full-length hug pillow fighter status.

Guess which one is more fun.

[mAc Chaos]

CT for everyone -> PROFIT

Well, the game looks way different, so I don't think we can judge it with the proper frame of reference. We'll have to see how it all shakes out when it's out, with all the new mechanics and no guard primers and crush trigger and all that.

[BladeOfJustice7]

First loketests don't mean shit. At this point I'm sure they're aware what tools hakumen needs to be viable.

I am curious to see how agito works along with kishin though.

[Isuna]

Well, this should still work:

[starter] -> Renka(G) -> IAD j.B -> j.A -> etc.

So not all his corner carry is gone...

I'm pretty sure someone at JBBS said that they couldn't do air dash JB after Renka bounce, as I think it is wall stick instead of wall bounce now. Don't quote me on that though.

[Darkside937]

CT for everyone -> PROFIT

Well, the game looks way different, so I don't think we can judge it with the proper frame of reference. We'll have to see how it all shakes out when it's out, with all the new mechanics and no guard primers and crush trigger and all that.

CT really was the most fun BB. Sure, it was the worst balanced, and it did have some problems (defensive burst having autoguard was a huge one off the top of my head), but the game in general felt far less... neutered. I even thought the Libra had potential (make it return to neutral faster and change how moves increased it, for example making Arakune's bugs having zero impact on the libra).

I don't like how crush trigger sounds on paper, but I'll have to see it in action.

First loketests don't mean shit. At this point I'm sure they're aware what tools hakumen needs to be viable.

First loketests don't mean shit, but three instances of a first loketest indicating the entire cast was heading to nerftown followed by an iteration of the game confirming it definitely does. With the first loketest of the fourth revision looking that way, brushing it off would be naive.

Just look at the things Hakumen has had "adjusted" in the past few iterations:

- Proration on counters nerfed repeatedly to the point of being near useless, due to their ridiculously terrible risk/reward (guess right and get 2k, guess wrong and eat a 5k CH combo)

- Counter properties nerfed (opponent's positioning made worse or the counters were made uncomboable)

- Green bursts during air combos can no longer be j.D'd. Not that it matters, since you can't combo after j.D anymore.

- Meter autogain slowed over and over

- Primers reduced to 5 from 6

- Hotaru having its damage, P1, comboability, and primer breaking properties nerfed.

- 4C implemented, then disadvantage on block increased, in spite of the move already being subpar

- Frame advantage on normals increased, then nerfed

- 2A having one extra frame of startup (BIG change)

- 6B comboability nerfed, ground bounce on CH removed

- AA 6A nerfed by transforming it into a sloooooow pressure tool with advantage. Now has head attribute inv. again... but without the frame advantage, and it's still slow as hell.

- j2C startup nerfed

- Mugen combo damage nerfed, now has meter cooldown

- SEVERAL (literally almost all) of Haku's moves have had some aspect of their proration nerfed, along with the rest of the entire cast, lowering average damage across the game.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not whining about nerfs because OMG I PLAY HAKZMAN I WANT HIM TO BE DA TOPEST TEIR EVER. I'm whining about nerfs because I'M SICK OF SEEING FUCKING NERFS. Would it fucking kill ArcSys to actually buff the entire cast of Blazblue for a change? How about everyone in the roster keeps the GOOD things they have, while the garbage stuff gets enhanced?

Sorry for the ragepost, I usually don't comment on such issues. It's just that seeing the new trailer almost rejuvenated my interest in BB by itself, while the actual reports coming in from the loketest are basically telling me, "Nope, it's still the same pillow fighter you and everyone else quit since the constant downgrading of anything fun made playing it so boring." I will be keeping an eye on the loketests and would love to be proven wrong, but I'm not expecting much as this has happened three times before, and I'm quite frankly disappointed to see such strong indicators that history will repeat itself.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Darkside937

[Afro-Demon]

To be fair, not every character has been constantly been getting shat on. Tager's been always getting buffs, despite him always being shit, and Carl has found at least 4 different ways to remain in A- tier lol. True, some system changes were weird and there were some damage nerfs across the board, but do you even remember CT damage? Nu 2C>j.C>j.2C>j.C>j.2C>j.214D hit over 4k. It needed some adjustment.

More on topic, I don't even think half the nerfs are going to stick, but I would love to see some love to haku's counter mechanics. I mean, that's part of what makes haku unique, so I think it should at least be good.

And I'm worried about Crush Trigger as well. I mean, it literally says "Fuck you Tager" written all over it.

[Kriegdrache]

Yeah, I have high hopes that the changes shown in the first loketest aren't gonna stick. If they thought J2A > Air dash was a problem, surely they'd have sniped it at an earlier point in time?

Have faith my Hakubros. <3

[Isuna]

If Hakumen does too much damage, lower the damage. Do not destroy his combos.

Personally, I feel "rape anything but the dustloop and his counters".

But, I really wonder what Agitos purpose is.

[Isuna]

News!

JC wall sticks in corner!

[Gemakai]

Wow! That is news! Sounds pretty nice actually.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't like how crush trigger sounds on paper

Why not?

The stuff I'm seeing (Jin "ice shake" might be back) looks like they just went nuts and threw in a whole bunch of crazy stuff. It sounds like the game's going to have lots of off the wall stuff even if the moves are basic.

Edited August 8, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[xlolxlolx]

hey man....ice shake means hes back up at least 1 letter on netplay tier :D

[mAc Chaos]

Custom blue beat combos, here I come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsKuzAq1B2Q

Here's some footage of new Hotaru and j.C wall stick.

As well as something weird with 6B.

Throw in the corner is weird, it pushes Haku out, no bounce. Looks like it staggers long enough for hop 2B?

Carl blocks 5D while haku tries to get out of Nirvana pressure, but later he goes for j.2C on Haku and gets "frozen" as 5D catches him.

Edited August 8, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[dioxideUniversa]

Wasn't it reported that projectiles hitting parries could be blocked?

j.C wall stick seems neat, interested in seeing what sorts of combo paths that opens up.

things

While I do not personally have as big a beef with their balance direction, the main issue between versions seems to be that every single time they display that they have no idea what they want to do with the game's mechanics, always whipping out brand new ones and suggesting drastic changes to how characters work. They do not always work differently, but as you've stated, there's enough being jerked around that it is a significant turnoff for some. BB strikes me as the type of game that does not know what it wants to be.

And I'm actually the opposite with Crush Trigger; it sounds nice in concept, but I'm really skeptical about it being good in practice, especially for Haku.

Edited August 9, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[Isuna]

As well as something weird with 6B.

You can supposedly combo off 6B(CH), so I guess they have changed something about it.

Throw in the corner is weird, it pushes Haku out, no bounce. Looks like it staggers long enough for hop 2B?

Throw causes stagger instead of blow away now. 3C or Gurren > 3C connects.

But I guess if you want any non-existent corner carry you will need Emma or Renka.

I guess they are testing how Hakumen would be without corner rape: making the throw useless in corner, destroying J2A and making Tsubaki not slide.

Hopefully this means that this is really a "let's test all the crazy ideas we have!"-loketest and that they really intend to listen to the players' feedback.

Carl blocks 5D while haku tries to get out of Nirvana pressure, but later he goes for j.2C on Haku and gets "frozen" as 5D catches him.

I guess they try to nerf Hakumen against Carl and Relius, as his drive is very good in those match-ups. But what's really wrong with having a few good match-ups? ._.

Well, they did buff Tager so that he has a chance in his bad match-ups.

But really, some characters are going to be strong against other characters by design. It is inevitable.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, for that 6B combo, he rapid canceled it first and THEN went into a followup. So I dunno if it would be comboable normally.

His drive against Carl is more like the only thing stopping you from getting you eaten alive when you get sandwiched.

And you still probably will.

[Isuna]

Well, for that 6B combo, he rapid canceled it first and THEN went into a followup. So I dunno if it would be comboable normally.

You could combo of 6B(RC) in Extend, right? : P

His drive against Carl is more like the only thing stopping you from getting you eaten alive when you get sandwiched.

And you still probably will.

I agree. They all talk highly about Hakumens counters, but they are (were?) extreme-risk medium-reward and you never saw them in matches anyways.

One interesting thought I saw on the JBBS. One guy said "I wouldn't mind if the counters did 0 damage".

I remember that that one time I played CT, 6D didn't do any damage right.

I certainly prefer to see no damage than se them unusable.

Edit: checked the newest 100 posts om the JBBS:

6C > Shippuu

Fuumajin time decreased

5D is delayable, but mechanics are unknown

6A is still anti-air, but lost corner bounce

All types of jump attacks got less untechable time on CH

JB smaller hitbox?

You can cross over with step Agito

"90% of the combos until Extend has changed"

a situation where JB > JA > 2C is possible does not occur.

Hakumen gravity got stronger?

Renka (1) > Kishuu > step is still possible

Akumetsu not usable during loketest or command has changed

Gurren still has repeat proration

6D > Mugen > Tsubacopter > Shippuu only gives 6k

6B cancels into drives

Tsubacopter lives

Tsubaki > 2B not possible

5A > 5B and 2A > 2B both chains to Emma

Forward Throw > 5C is possible

2A > 2A > Shippuu possible

Kishuu lost its invincibility against projectiles?

5C > Renka(1) > Emma > falling J2C > 2C > jump JB > J2A > jump J2C > Agito = 3540

5C > Renka(1) > Zantetsu > Kishuu > 2C > jump JB > J2A > jump J2C > Agito = 4451

Hotaru only blows opponent away half distance of Extend

J2A sends opponent diagonally upwards

J2C sends opponent diagonally downwards, if you air-to-air J2C(CH) and Hakumen is above, you won't make it to 5C

2A > 2B combos even on standing opponent

5A(air CH) > jump JB possible ("That fact that I even need to write this makes me think this is another character lololol")

Agito gives okizeme even from high air

Edited August 9, 2012 by Isuna

[BladeOfJustice7]

Starting to get negative about this game. Guess I'll start looking into Valk as my sub from now on. He's consistently good in this game at least...

Not that I'm assuming all these changes will stay, but I feel he's going to suck again and I'm going to miss csex. Even as he's "top tier" he's not some unstoppable force that can be auto piloted to win. It's easy to get an idea of where your character is headed as loketests go on, especially when they were really good in the previous version of the game.

Though I'm sure people will say hakumen is stupid good, but whatever.

[mAc Chaos]

The character doesn't have to be good to have fun. It's a new game with a whole bunch of new stuff. Let's just enjoy it for what it is. I'll just adapt to whatever they make him into. I did it before, I'll do it again.

6B was always comboable (off RC), yeah, so none of that is anything new.

Hmm, 6D, zero damage. I totally forgot about that. Was it really 0 damage? Well, most of the damage was off the combo anyway.

But seriously, lol those changes.

Edited August 9, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Darkside937]

Why not?

To explain this, I'm going to offer my thoughts on guard gauges in general. In games I've played with guard gauges present (and for the purpose of this explanation, BBCP), there are a few types:

1. Gauge type. Meter increases slowly via blockstrings; when maxed, guard is broken and the attacker gets a free combo.

2. Primer type. Characters have a specified number of primers; certain attacks remove them. When all primers are depleted, guard is broken and the attacker gets a free combo.

3. Bar type. Meter increases slowly via blockstrings; when maxed, guard isn't broken--however damage is increased depending on how high the meter has been raised.

4. Crush type (please correct me if my understanding of this is wrong, it very well may be ). Certain attacks can be followed up for 25% meter with a special attack that breaks guard upon connecting, giving the attacker a free combo.

The issue with 1 is that it rewards the attacker for pressuring their opponent, but not necessarily skillfully. Mindless or sometimes even inescapable pressure shouldn't result in a free combo (CvS2 Shoshosho, BBCT Rachel/Arakune bugs). Number 2 is problematic as the ability to break someone's guard lies more in the hands of the developers than the player, as how successful someone is at breaking their opponent's guard is highly dependent on how good their character's primer breaking moves are. It's a heavy-handed approach by developers, as if they're saying, "We want _____ character to be inherently good at breaking guard, so we will strictly define this by making sure their moves capable of doing so are well suited for it (e.g., Lambda)." Shouldn't that be determined by the skill of the player? If someone were to come up with a tight, tricky blockstring that utilized none of their primer breaking moves, shouldn't they be rewarded for that, instead of being told, "Well, that awesome blockstrings you created didn't use move X, so instead it's not going to affect their guard whatsoever and they can literally block it all day."

My issue with Guard crush is how it seems like it will take this to an even greater extreme: "If you want to break your opponent's guard, you have to use this specific move followed by this specific move. If either of those are sucky for your character, that's too bad." I'm totally fine with them wanting to make certain characters better or worse at breaking guard as that helps define their design overall, but as I said before, this appears to be an extremely heavy-handed approach, where a character is explicitly defined as either good or bad at it via how good or bad the relevant moves are, with player skill taking a backseat to the developers' hard coding. The system looks very "all or nothing."

IMO, the ideal type is number 3, the Guilty Gear type. It rewards an attacker who applies solid pressure by increasing the damage his next hit or combo will do, and even though each character has moves that are obviously better suited for increasing the bar, the attacker is not FORCED to use those moves--you can get someone's guard bar flashing by solely using 5Ps if you're able to make that a viable strategy. However, it doesn't suffer the flaw of type 1: instead of giving you a freebie for mashing buttons while they're blocking, it is still your responsibility as the attacker to mix them up or otherwise land a hit to take advantage of that increased damage. In other words, your pressure can't be mindless, and every move your character has is as useful for increasing their guard bar as you can make it.

You could combo of 6B(RC) in Extend, right? : P

I agree. They all talk highly about Hakumens counters, but they are (were?) extreme-risk medium-reward and you never saw them in matches anyways.

One interesting thought I saw on the JBBS. One guy said "I wouldn't mind if the counters did 0 damage".

I remember that that one time I played CT, 6D didn't do any damage right.

I certainly prefer to see no damage than se them unusable.

Edit: checked the newest 100 posts om the JBBS:

If they want to make them deal 0 damage, I'd be fine with that, so long as they fixed their abysmal proration. If it's not even possible to come somewhat close to the amount of damage you'll incur by guessing wrong, what's the point of even using them? Their risk/reward is just broken at this point, and nerfing them YET AGAIN by making them blockable on projectile counters is going to really hurt Hakumen in certain situations (vs. Carl [especially during Nirvana sandwich], vs. Relius, Daisharin, Jin's icesword run-ins, Silpheed pumpkins, etc). Honestly, at this point, if they're just going to further nerf counters since it's obvious they have such a hate-on for them, I'd prefer if they just removed them completely and changed his drive into something actually useful. I'd be disappointed since counters are one of the reasons I was initially drawn to Hakumen, but shit, the fact that they haven't removed them in spite of how worthless they are makes them borderline fanservice moves anway.

On the newly observed changes (thanks Isuna!):

- Step Agito can cross-up? I guess it's not a dive kick after all. Maybe it's an axe-kick like (Street Fighter) Makoto's?

- 6B has been cancellable into drives since CS1, along with most other A and B normals. Not sure what they mean here.

- Son of Tsubakicopter is cool, but Tsubaki > 2B doesn't work? Wat

- Throw > 5C possible: fucking excellence. Happy with this.

- Kishuu losing projectile inv: just great (sarcasm). Although, with Murakumos possibly cut from the game, this might not be so bad... I'll miss kishuu'ing through bursts though, since it was practically directly injecting sodium into your opponent's bloodstream (though not nearly as much as countering their burst did. Really wish they'd bring that back :sad: ).

- Hotaru blowback distance halved: Very excite. Of course, it will depend on what combo followups are possible.

- J2A knocks opponent upwards: Weird change, not sure what they have in mind for this.

- 2A > 5B combos even on standing opponent: It would be really nice if 5B's startup was reduced.

- Agito gives oki even when high up: Cool, but then again, oki isn't nearly as important in BB as it is elsewhere. If it's able to cover (like how slight-delay 6A against downed opponents in the corner forces them to neutral tech) or assist in covering (for example, either move in the renka/gurren OS oki) multiple wakeup options, it will be awesome. If not: Meh.

- Akumetsu's motion possibly being changed: If this goes back to a 720...

- Everything else: WOO, ALL ABOARD THE NERFTRAIN! Next stop: Pillowtown, home of "No fun allowed." Please relinquish your strongest tools at the door, we'll be replacing them with what's in the box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ErCZ3Xn_n0&feature=player_detailpage#t=79s

Edited August 9, 2012 by Darkside937

[toanenadiz]

Though I'm sure people will say hakumen is stupid good, but whatever.

Hakumen is stupid good.