Darkside937 Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 Ok i still dont feel like typing much so this will be kinda short. So onto CS2 Haku. Overall he had the Best normals out of any of the previous iterations of haku Stopped reading right there. I'll type up my opinions on this discussion when I have more time, but the short version is that no, CS2 Hakumen was not better than CT Hakumen. You need to stop looking at certain aspects of him in a vacuum and realize you are WAY overestimating the usefulness of some things, e.g., 4C, which is a terrible move.
mAc Chaos Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) > 2a nerf not significant welp Well, I wonder if Giga played Hakumen. He seems to be familiar with his different versions. But his perspective is skewed. CS2 Haku wasn't bad; it's just that all of Haku's rough (good and bad) edges were sanded down. He didn't have any glaring unsafe normals, etc., but he didn't have anything great either. He was just average. You could grind out lower damage combos safer and win, whereas in CT it was more like, doing high risk high reward stuff. CS2 felt more like, low risk low reward. But the problem is that the character doesn't exist in a vacuum. A lot of characters had high reward stuff compared to him, especially up close, which suddenly made things high risk for you since the opponent could get a lot more out of each situation than you could. If you have a low reward and they get a high reward, then suddenly it becomes high risk for you. This pushed me more towards zoning in CS2, keeping away from areas where I would lose out on risk/reward, but then you only do a little damage with your pokes, and then they get in on you and make up for all the damage and more. But really, I always felt like with Hakumen if you played on point, you could make up for his deficiencies in every version and win. Even CT (except Arakune :3). It just requires to be flawless, but I like aiming for that. Edited September 9, 2012 by mAc Chaos
mAc Chaos Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12892-CSEX-Lambda-General-Discussion&p=1390685&viewfull=1#post1390685 Lambda can't be allowed to have a useful 2C. We must destroy this last miserable vestige from CT and banish it to where it belongs. Surely there must be a way to counter this. Ah, there's no real way to win in this situation. 6B will beat 2A but nothing beats 236A out of the corner (I think). The only way to win is to pretty much decide beforehand if she's going to do 2C or throw and responding appropriately. Edited September 9, 2012 by mAc Chaos
Isuna Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Im sorry but imo Haku definitely wasnt horrible in cs2 and i sincerely doubt he will be bad in CP. Let's see about that... >_> If his Magatama cool down stays the same As far as I know it is the same, but as we have use more magatama to get any damage, you will have less of it. He still has 4c and Jc Don't know how one hit ~1k damage are going to help anything. Surely, it is better than having nothing, but while Ragna can do 4,4k meterless in corner from a dash 5B, we can probably only get about the same damage from a 4C/JC counter hit with 6 magatama combo. Hotaru exists Hotarus been nerfed, 20% less damage and it floats Hakumen higher, so it is really unsafe on block. If I understood Darkside's analysis of Hakumen pressure game, this is a huge determent. And as Zanshin, his other defensive option is nerfed, it will generally be much less dangerous to approach Hakumen. The CT love isn't because he was good, it was because he was fun. ^Word. I joined up during CS2 and played Hakumen because I liked him. fun >>> good And I'm just dropping this from the JBBS: "If Zanshin now is blockable, does that mean we can Zanshin Zanshin?" "5A, get Zanshin'd, Zanshin, get Yukikazed" just sayin', Hakumen mirrors will never be the same (also, this makes me hope for that they makes unblockable again)
Sophisticat Posted September 9, 2012 Author Posted September 9, 2012 SEX Haku has overall the best normals. Not much to argue with here, j.B trumps everything. Between the rest, CS1 Hak def. has the best, dude. He could get reasonable dmg off anything and had good corner carry to boot. CS2 Hak mostly got nerfs from here aside from proration on C moves. Special cancel 4c isn't good enough to overcome his nerfs here. Best normals? This is after the 2A nerf and the 6A nerf. And j.C nerf as well. And 6b.
Darkside937 Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Hakumen will be bottom tier if he remotely resembles the sorry state he's in now. The Hotaru safety nerf alone is going to absolutely cripple his pressure game to the point where it's non-existent as he'll likely be forced to immediately go for a mixup after connecting a couple of blocked attacks. There will be no threat in just mashing him out of hops since throwing out Hotaru now places the risk on him, so once he gets pushed out and needs to get back in, he'll either have to 6A, which is too slow to be used consistently, or Kishuu, which also isn't feasible to use repeatedly since it will burn through your stars, which he now desperately needs for damage. In addition, Kishuu itself has also been nerfed. That's not even mentioning the other laundry list of nerfs he's receiving in other areas. If they don't at least give him some of his more essential tools back (safe Hotaru being number one on that list), they are going to destroy him. Stuff like that is why BB's constant redefinition of character designs bothers me. Take Zanshin's changes, for example. 5D never needed a delay and 6D never needed a ridiculous 10 frames of startup. Those are just completely stupid and unnecessary changes, and their randomness proves to me that BB's balance team has no idea what in the actual fuck they are doing. It's also why I don't think adding a command grab to his move set would conflict with his design. Compare his original concept in CT to the train wreck he is slated to become. Is disturbing the integrity of his design something to even be concerned about anymore? It seems like ArcSys already did that long before CP when they ruined his primary defining characteristic over and over: Zanshin. But this is merely an aside; I'm not trying to resurrect that debate.
Dream Maker Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) CS2 Haku was fine, of course he was weaker than most characters back then but the gap was nowhere as big as it was between the low and tops of CT or CS1. The three big things Haku gained that made him godly in CSEX : - Gauge stop cooldown being shorter - jB cancel into j2A that opened the way to easier midscreen combos (it was possible to do decent combos on midscreen in CS2, he just had less openings and the combos were harder) - Throw being special cancellable again Aside from that he was about the same except for some little damage buffs on some moves and 6A becoming an anti-air again although it is not even close to be as good as it was in CT. The only reason people think CT Haku was better is because he was like Tager, a character that could deal awesome damage but only from some moves that are very risky or not very likely to hit in normal conditions, basically a "noob bait" that works well against people who don't pay attention enough or don't have enough experience against him, and even more so on online matches. He could reverse a match quickly on an accident, but he didn't have the flexibility and all the options he gained in the latter episodes. Nobody knows how he will be in CP. Although the changes do look bad, I know for sure that it's impossible to predict how the character will perform just based on that, especially in an update like CP which is a whole new game and thus has massive changes. I remember when GGAC just came out, many people considered Testament to be low or low-mid tier because he lost his gravedigger loop as well many of his BNBs and options people were relying on during the previous episodes. But a few weeks later he made his way to the top because people discovered how to use his new options and found out how to do stupidly strong loops with his new move, and also that forward EXE had massive frame advantage. So I say let's wait for the game to be released and see what he can really do with his new options. Sometimes a loketest is not long enough for people to discover everything, and things are still subject to change anyway. Edited September 9, 2012 by Dream Maker
Warhound Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 "If Zanshin now is blockable, does that mean we can Zanshin Zanshin?" does that mean we can Zanshin Zanshin? Zanshin Zanshin? GIFSoup
Wander Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 "5A, get Zanshin'd, Zanshin, get Yukikazed" Im not sure if i remember correctly, but i was in training mode and the cpu haku 5d my 2a and i astraled his 5d
Darkside937 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 If you Zanshin a Zanshin and the attacks come out at the same time, do they clash?
BladeOfJustice7 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 You guys are being retarded lol, you can't zanshin a zanshin, zanshin is an "blockable command grab", until they add the ability to counter grabs, hakumen will not be able to zanshin zanshin. Hakumen 1 does 2a Hakumen 2 does 2d Hakumen 1, unless he jumps or can block in time, will get caught in zanshin, pressing zanshin will still lead to hakumen 2 catching him with a counter lol.
Darkside937 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 ...so can you Akumetsu a counter? (I'm just being silly and taking advantage of the excuse to use Psyduck. :psyduck: )
BladeOfJustice7 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Yes you can, Akumetsu is the only counter that can take physical unblockables.
toanenadiz Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Is Zashin really a command grab? That seems strange. Now I have to test to see if gravity well can avoid it.
Warhound Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 You guys are being retarded lol, you can't zanshin a zanshin, zanshin is an "blockable command grab", until they add the ability to counter grabs, hakumen will not be able to zanshin zanshin. Hakumen 1 does 2a Hakumen 2 does 2d Hakumen 1, unless he jumps or can block in time, will get caught in zanshin, pressing zanshin will still lead to hakumen 2 catching him with a counter lol. You're just taking the fun outta things now （￣□￣；）
BladeOfJustice7 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Is Zashin really a command grab? That seems strange. Now I have to test to see if gravity well can avoid it. If it has enough invincibility frames, like about as much in Inferno Divider, then yes it can be avoided. it's the onyl move I've seen with enough invincibility to avoid it when it's activated. You're just taking the fun outta things now （￣□￣；） Lol clearly you guys are having a ball, so I'll just watch to see where this goes now.
shtkn Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 you cannot cancel zanshin'd physical attacks into jumps/blocks/RCs. This is because this character is trapped in hitstop. this is the same reason that you can't RC physical attacks after activating yukikaze. projectiles are another matter. this wasn't changed in cp was it? cuz if it wasn't then you guys are crying over nothing. only thing lost now is that opponents can block haku's attack after you zanshin projectiles
BladeOfJustice7 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Well the thing is, is that there was info at one of the loketest that Jin did a jump cancellable move on zanshin and was able to escape it's activated grab hitbox. So if that's the case the the hit stop is either non existent or it's activation is slower.
Isuna Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 One guy at JBBS said "I can confirm that you can jump cancel guard Zanshin", so it seems like the increased hitstop on Zanshin is only for Hakumen, like 10F hitstop for opponent and 15F hitstop from Hakumen. And Hakus 5A can cancel to 2D right? Haku A: 5D Haku B: 5A Haku A: *blocks* Haku B: cancels 5A to 2D Haku A: *counters* Haku B: *blocks* Haku A: Yukikaze
mAc Chaos Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Pretty much all his non C normals can. Oh man, this adds a whole other level to my counter mindgames. Just imagine it Blade.
dioxideUniversa Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 anyone on dustloop complaining about people theory fighting about bbcp should just be pointed to this thread where we are discussing parrying parries
BladeOfJustice7 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Pretty much all his non C normals can. Oh man, this adds a whole other level to my counter mindgames. Just imagine it Blade. No you do 66>hotaru, I'm the one known for using counter lol. anyone on dustloop complaining about people theory fighting about bbcp should just be pointed to this thread where we are discussing parrying parries I'm not involved lol.
Warhound Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 It may not be harmless. If you can Zanshin a Zanshin, you'd probably start an alternate dimension or something.
mAc Chaos Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Of course, but you forget that Hakumen can cut through dimensions. So really it would just be another layer of yomi.
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