[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Darkside937]

^CS2 Hakumen was pretty trash.

You know how Hakumen's shortcomings are a trade off for doing huge damage? Okay, now picture that huge damage being below average in addition to some of his best tools from CS1 being nerfed or removed. You basically had to spend meter and play risky only to still get 1k less than higher tier characters on average.

IMO CS2 was his worst version, even worse than CT.

Edit: Almost forget the worst part: his meter gain was crippled. The 180 frame cool down and further auto gain nerf meant you had to be SUPER conservative with meter. The amount of mistakes you were allowed was extremely limited since you had to conserve as much as you could to invest in combos/mixups, and in CS2 his expendable meter was so limited it was difficult at times for his character design to function properly.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Darkside937

[mAc Chaos]

I was playing CS2 the other day, forgot you can't combo off throw. ;_; RC'd a throw to win with a 2k combo, lulz.

I don't know if he was the worst though. Maybe worst in a vacuum, but in context of the game it wasn't that bad.

[SteelCoil]

I think they might be trying to make Hakumen less polarizing.

He's always been awful without meter but amazing with a lot of meter, so I think they are trying make meter matter a little bit less by giving stuff that doesn't need meter.

Kind of like how they're making curse matter less for Arakune.

For example:

Knockdown after throw without meter.

Possibly comboable 6B

2A > 3C

These changes ensure that he has mixup options should Hakumen have little to no meter and that all of his combos can end with a knockdown.

So while combos cost more meter, Hakumen isn't exactly a sitting duck like he normally is when he has none.

Is that worth giving up 4k+ combos for 3 meter?

Probably not, but there's still room for doubt, if only a little.

[BladeOfJustice7]

According to speculations yes. I think it usually adds less than 200 damage as ender.

lovely daze.

I only played with my friends in my hometown once a week for a year and I haven't really been a part of this community.

As I joined about CS2, I didn't want to play too much story because I hadn't played CT. And I didn't take my time doing it before I left for Japan.

Story coupled with hakumen's speech about justice and his style of play plus his damage output along with his appearance/voice made me main him.

As I am so used to play BB on the 360 controller I really feel alienated when trying to play it at the arcades: things I should be able to do I can't just because the controller is in the way. On the other hand UN is completely new for me, as I've never played MB, so it just feels weird.

I'll probably go with the flow and play the most popular character. : P

As of right now, I think my plan will be:

drop BlazBlue > learn to play with stick while learning UN > pick-up BlazBlue again when Hakumen isn't shit

Main Gordeau and be cool. I learned stick while playing cs1 hakumen so it wasn't so bad. By the time cs2 came out I only had a few kinks to work out in terms of inputs, dp motions, iad, sj2a (for his corner loops). SO by the time csex came out I was/am very consistent on stick. I would say that you must make sure not to give up, but learning to play on stick is like a hueg weight off your shoulder since you can play virtually anywhere, so long as you have properly functioning sticks.

Was he really that bad in CS2? Tier-wise I know he wasn't that great, Extend really only improved our offensive right?

In CS2 Zanshin, Hotaru and J2A worked properly, which I would consider much more important than having most Extend gave us.

He was terrible, SPark was the only hakumen player to make hakumen look strong in that version of the game lol. Read darkside's post about cs2 hakumen

If Mori would just utter "we testing some crazy shit right now"

I would say "lol, this is crazy" : D

When Mori says nothing I just suspect is "we're going through with this whatever players say"

and I'm saying "shit, this is crazy" D:<

I hope we're not going to be heading towards his cs2/ct version again.

^CS2 Hakumen was pretty trash.

You know how Hakumen's shortcomings are a trade off for doing huge damage? Okay, now picture that huge damage being below average in addition to some of his best tools from CS1 being nerfed or removed. You basically had to spend meter and play risky only to still get 1k less than higher tier characters on average.

IMO CS2 was his worst version, even worse than CT.

Edit: Almost forget the worst part: his meter gain was crippled. The 180 frame cool down and further auto gain nerf meant you had to be SUPER conservative with meter. The amount of mistakes you were allowed was extremely limited since you had to conserve as much as you could to invest in combos/mixups, and in CS2 his expendable meter was so limited it was difficult at times for his character design to function properly.

You forgot about the fact that meter gain made it TERRIBLE when you were about to do an extended combo in cs2 that took up 3+ stars you had to pray your opponent didn't burst at the right time.

Because not only have they blown you away making it harder for you to get in close, thereby increasing the chances you have of making one of the very few mistakes you're allowed to make in a round/match, but you also lose all the stars you had trying to start a combo meaning that you're put at a disadvantage since you don't have much tools to defend yourself against you opponent if they decide to go offensive on you when you wake up.

I think they might be trying to make Hakumen less polarizing.

He's always been awful without meter but amazing with a lot of meter, so I think they are trying make meter matter a little bit less by giving stuff that doesn't need meter.

Kind of like how they're making curse matter less for Arakune.

For example:

Knockdown after throw without meter.

Possibly comboable 6B

2A > 3C

These changes ensure that he has mixup options should Hakumen have little to no meter and that all of his combos can end with a knockdown.

So while combos cost more meter, Hakumen isn't exactly a sitting duck like he normally is when he has none.

Is that worth giving up 4k+ combos for 3 meter?

Probably not, but there's still room for doubt, if only a little.

That's an interesting take on his changes, and you may very well be right.

[Isuna]

I guess I was too low-leveled at the time of CS2 to understand how weak he was.

Story coupled with hakumen's speech about justice and his style of play plus his damage output along with his appearance/voice made me main him.

For me the initial I liked about him was Zanshin, as the only fighting game I had ever played before BB was DoA. It also helped that he made much damage for simple hits for a noob like me. I really like his design, and I could probably write a essay why Hakumen is the coolest character ever. But not now. : p

Main Gordeau and be cool.

Yuzuriha got too many things going for her. As I have a hard on for iaijutsu it is hard to resist. And look at the length, shes frickin' using Hakumens sword! XD

Not to mention boobies. : 3

The second character I thought looked interesting was Orie.

I learned stick while playing cs1 hakumen so it wasn't so bad. By the time cs2 came out I only had a few kinks to work out in terms of inputs, dp motions, iad, sj2a (for his corner loops). SO by the time csex came out I was/am very consistent on stick. I would say that you must make sure not to give up, but learning to play on stick is like a hueg weight off your shoulder since you can play virtually anywhere, so long as you have properly functioning sticks.

The thing is that I don't like stick. I don't like moving my wrist while playing games. Like a Japanese reviewer said about the HitBox "people overseas where arcades are not so usual and most gamers are used to buttons, the HitBox probably fits them better", and I couldn't have said it better.

The only reason ever for me to learn to play stick would be becuase of the convience. And with that little motivation and having to spend money to train to just play the game, you can see where I am.

New translations~

[SteelCoil]

6C > Shippu is back guys.

Now I have reason to use it again.

I do like that they're buffing up the C normals too, and with the new wall stick on j.C, it might actually mean something when it hits.

I'm wondering if the 20% damage increase on OD is universal. High meter gain is already a big deal for Hakumen, and the damage increase makes it an even bigger deal.

Most of the other character's ODs seem very lackluster in comparison if they didn't also get this boost.

I don't have any opinion on the Enma followup to the Ds until I see some frame data.

Also, all the drives with the exception of 6D do close to the same amount of damage a drive combo does in EX.

This probably means that the claim about Ds being uncomboable without OD is true.

OD counter combos better be amazing.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I guess I was too low-leveled at the time of CS2 to understand how weak he was.

Yea he was terrible, Spark was honestly the only good hakumen player at the time. He just did not have effective tools.

For me the initial I liked about him was Zanshin, as the only fighting game I had ever played before BB was DoA. It also helped that he made much damage for simple hits for a noob like me. I really like his design, and I could probably write a essay why Hakumen is the coolest character ever. But not now. : p

I play Ky for GG, his damage kinda sucks, so when I saw Hakumen's damage output I gravitated towards him.

Yuzuriha got too many things going for her. As I have a hard on for iaijutsu it is hard to resist. And look at the length, shes frickin' using Hakumens sword! XD

Not to mention boobies. : 3

The second character I thought looked interesting was Orie.

Refer to what I said above, plus Gordeau's scythe has HUGE range lol

The thing is that I don't like stick. I don't like moving my wrist while playing games. Like a Japanese reviewer said about the HitBox "people overseas where arcades are not so usual and most gamers are used to buttons, the HitBox probably fits them better", and I couldn't have said it better.

The only reason ever for me to learn to play stick would be becuase of the convience. And with that little motivation and having to spend money to train to just play the game, you can see where I am.

I lost in a local tournament because I had to play on ps3 pad, as opposed to me playing on my preferred 360 pad. So since then I converted to stick, it's just so much more convenient. I can pretty much play anywhere.

New translations~

I've managed to ignore most changes but, WHY ARE THEY NERFING YUKIKAZE'S DAMAGE?! Each game they made it better to the point where it was actually a viable tool for 4 stars, now they're making the risk doing it, even less worth it with less damage. FUCK THIS GAME/CHARACTER. I'M LEARNING VALKENHAYN FULL FORCE NOW.

6C > Shippu is back guys.

Now I have reason to use it again.

Actually if I understand correctly 6>shippu=4320 since the 5400=OD(+20% damage). If i understood correctly.

I do like that they're buffing up the C normals too, and with the new wall stick on j.C, it might actually mean something when it hits.

130 for jc is pretty crazy lol

I'm wondering if the 20% damage increase on OD is universal. High meter gain is already a big deal for Hakumen, and the damage increase makes it an even bigger deal.

Most of the other character's ODs seem very lackluster in comparison if they didn't also get this boost.

No only character's who have their install linked with their OD would be getting a 20% damage increase. I say this because 720+20%=6744, which is just plain insane/dumb.

I don't have any opinion on the Enma followup to the Ds until I see some frame data.

I don't quite understand how that works yet...

Also, all the drives with the exception of 6D do close to the same amount of damage a drive combo does in EX.

This probably means that the claim about Ds being uncomboable without OD is true.

OD counter combos better be amazing.

I still don't like the fact that you can block his drive, I would be fine with the lack of follow up if his counters got a damage buff and you got a star no matter what. We've seen that everytime you give hakumen 1 thing and take away 2 he ends up being shit because he lacks the proper tools to win.

[Isuna]

Refer to what I said above, plus Gordeau's scythe has HUGE range lol

Yuzuriha also have huge range. Merkava also has huge range. Waldstein also got huge range. All characters have great range. : p

I lost in a local tournament because I had to play on ps3 pad, as opposed to me playing on my preferred 360 pad. So since then I converted to stick, it's just so much more convenient. I can pretty much play anywhere.

My personal opinion is that arcades should offer HitBox controls as well. : P

FUCK THIS GAME/CHARACTER. I'M LEARNING VALKENHAYN FULL FORCE NOW.

Valkenhayn is also nerfed. ._.

I still don't like the fact that you can block his drive, I would be fine with the lack of follow up if his counters got a damage buff and you got a star no matter what. We've seen that everytime you give hakumen 1 thing and take away 2 he ends up being shit because he lacks the proper tools to win.

^This

Take away our corner carry from Zanshin and leave it be. Please, Mori-san! T_T

[mAc Chaos]

YI don't quite understand how that works yet...

Imagine you successfully countered something. Normally Hakumen throws out his hand and catches the person and smashes them onto the ground or throws them into the air. Instead you push A or something and he does 623AA which can be blocked or interrupted.

Also 6 stars in the corner = 4.5k damage. yesssssssssssssssssss

How are they buffing C normals? I'll have to look again. I just saw 3C being easier to punish.

Edited August 28, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Isuna]

You hold A to activate Zanshin Emma. As it skips Kishuu it costs 1 magatama. So get 1800 damage + 1 magatama, or invest that magatama to do a (very) little more damage.

Almost all C attack got damaged buffed, not that it helps in anyway.

[Warhound]

So then what's the point of Zanshin Enma? A fail-safe in case your counter goes south? And is 6D still 10 frames?

Edited August 28, 2012 by Warhound

[mAc Chaos]

Wait, so you can still counter normally? I thought the whole "counters are blockable" thing was the same as Zanshin Emma. Or is it that you can activate a counter but have no followup and just get a free star.

Or maybe it's just 5D where you use Zanshin Emma but not the rest.

[Isuna]

I guess it is like this:

• 1. Block something with Zanshin and get 1 magatama.
  do nothing > 2A
  hold A > 2B
  
• 2A. Tries to do a blockable throw, that leads to no combo.
  
• 2B. Does Emma, which leads to combo.
  

I think Zanshin Emma is only confirmed for 5D. Quite hard to test 2D and 6D is unsuable so.

And no, I see no point in it.

[WolfCrimson]

Lighten up guys, it's still just a loketest.

[Saeor12]

I thought the blockable counter was only on a projectile hit...or did i just misunderstand?

[WolfCrimson]

I thought the blockable counter was only on a projectile hit...or did i just misunderstand?

No, you understood correctly.

[mAc Chaos]

I could see lots of strange mixup situations from that. Imagine being in the corner with Litchi staff bearing down on you, and you counter it. But Litchi is also there, maybe getting ready to throw in an overhead or a throw in between the next staff hit. If you don't counter her moves, you are forced to block, but if you do try to counter you might screw up the timing and get hit. On the other hand, you could still hit her if you counter her own physical attacks rather than the staff, if you manage to do it successfully.

[Saeor12]

so as long as the frame data isn't completely absurd, Zanshin will be a strong tool like it always has just minus the projectile shenanigans.

[WolfCrimson]

so as long as the frame data isn't completely absurd, Zanshin will be a strong tool like it always has just minus the projectile shenanigans.

Yup.

[SteelCoil]

Except apparently there was a case where Jin was able to jump cancel one of his normals and block the counter.

Just a rumor at this point, though.

But in CS, I do remember there being cases where opponents RC'd immediately upon hitting Zanshin.

Of course, they just got hit anyway and wasted their meter, but now....

Eh, I'm sure it won't be too bad. Even if that does work, Yukikaze will still probably be unavoidable minus projectiles.

[Spark]

Any confirmation on whether the counters are plus on block?

[BladeOfJustice7]

Valkenhayn is also nerfed. ._.

More like balanced, he's been one of the top 5 characters in each version of cs no matter how much they "nerfed" him lol. Andf I'm fine with that, I still wanna learn him.

so as long as the frame data isn't completely absurd, Zanshin will be a strong tool like it always has just minus the projectile shenanigans.

Except apparently there was a case where Jin was able to jump cancel one of his normals and block the counter.

Just a rumor at this point, though.

That could be problematic if it's true.

But in CS, I do remember there being cases where opponents RC'd immediately upon hitting Zanshin.

Of course, they just got hit anyway and wasted their meter, but now....

Eh, I'm sure it won't be too bad. Even if that does work, Yukikaze will still probably be unavoidable minus projectiles.

Yea that was the beauty of Zanshin, once activated it was unstoppable, the problem was knowing when to try and activate it lol

Any confirmation on whether the counters are plus on block?

Good question.

[mAc Chaos]

You could still dodge the counter in certain circumstances.

It wasn't undodgeable; you had to fall into the catch's hitbox. It was just really big. I had situations where a Ragna would Inferno Divider, I would counter it, and then they would cancel into another one and dodge it. Although now that I think about it, that might have been from ID invincibility. Still, same idea.

[Warhound]

I think I remember catching the edge of another Hakumen's j.2C and it was just outside the hitbox.

[Isuna]

Rumours go that opponent can cancel they way out of it.