[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BladeOfJustice7]

SO basically they can just go around counters so long as they use the right normals?

And when is the next loketest?

[Spark]

Assuming they don't change counter attack frames, the only times they would be able to block would be if they jumped in, did a jump cancelable move on 2D and jump cancel away, or RCed a move that got caught by 2D. 5D and 6D are fast enough that they should hit the opponent out of their hitstop before they get a chance to block if they caught their non-projectile normal/special.

[BladeOfJustice7]

the thing is 6d is a 10 frame startup now if I remember correctly. The only frame 1 active counter now is 2d, if this sticks I could see this becoming an issue for hakumen while on defense whe the game is fleshed out more.

[mAc Chaos]

What if we thought of his throw as Ragna's 22C.

Instead of a shitty combo we could use the throw stagger for mixup. lool

I'm guessing after 3C we might be able to do something like, 3C CH > 2B > 5A > j.B > j.2A > j.2C > Agito.

[xlolxlolx]

massive 2k combos bro lolololol

[Isuna]

The only thing I know about counters being able to canceled out of, is that someone said "Jin jump canceled J2C when he hit my 5D and I missed". So I guess a 5A > 5B gatling would still be caught as Hakumen SHOULD be invincible during Zanshin. Unless we try to Emma of course..

[samthegreat]

I'm just gonna leave this here

Hopefully not everyone already knows about this...

[mAc Chaos]

that was amazing

[BladeOfJustice7]

Indeed.

[Isuna]

Well, you guys were interested in what the Japanese players said about Hakumen compared with CT etc, so I translated the post which rounded it all up. Certainly, there may be people viewing it differently:

CT

If he used magatama he would do damage, regardless of his combo rate Something > 6C > Shippuu was hot. Compared to later versions, instead of current JC - 4C - Fuumajin he had the strongest 6A ever.

単体性能はともかくSTG勢との相性が悪すぎたからランクは微妙。

He had bad match-ups which is why he was ranked low. (?)

あと投げ抜け仕込み当身できた。

And, from throw break he could go to Zanshin. (?)

CS

He got JC - 4C - Fuumajin, and with this his corner combos and neutral game was greatly improved. Combo rate was still high so midscreen he could get 3~4k from Renka>Kishuu, max 6C (FC) > max 6C > rapid max 6C > 6C > Shippuu did 8k (lol). Both Hotaru and Tsubaki did great damage midscreen and could easily be comboed off, and he got great damage from Zanshin. As there were many other strong characters around, he wasn't ranked very high but, he was very strong in his own way.

CS2

With JC & 4C getting more hitstop/hitstun (硬直?) and lowered combo rate, among other reasons made his neutral game and damage worse, and JD was no longer usable. He became a corner character (端ゲー?), with Tsubaki and 6C causing slide and Hotaru causing "blowback" (is this the term we are using in English?). Furthermore, Emma's proration got unbelievably worse, so most midscreen combos became Renka > Gurren > air dash.

Unlike CS1 Hakumen who could do damage from any starter, he got no damage from easy starters such as 5A & 2A & 2B, and of course nothing from counters either. This is the "Dark Ages of Hakumen".

As many characters were strong during CS2, you can't say otherwise than he was weak.

EX

With JB's longer hitstun and Kishuu improved invincibility, 6A's anti-air properties and wall bounce, the added JB > J2A gatling route, Shippuu's improved minimum damage, and less cooldown he became really strong.

Midscreen it was okay with Renka > Kishuu, in the corner you could add one 6A and one 6A and with this improve heat gain and damage. Hotaru got lower proration and Kishuu's added full-body frames hurt, but all the buffs canceled this out.

The characters that were strong during CS2 were mostly weaker now, so regardless if you look at the match-ups or just on Hakumen he was strong.

[BladeOfJustice7]

CS2

With JC & 4C getting more hitstop/hitstun (硬直?) and lowered combo rate, among other reasons made his neutral game and damage worse, and JD was no longer usable. He became a corner character (端ゲー?), with Tsubaki and 6C causing slide and Hotaru causing "blowback" (is this the term we are using in English?). Furthermore, Emma's proration got unbelievably worse, so most midscreen combos became Renka > Gurren > air dash.

Unlike CS1 Hakumen who could do damage from any starter, he got no damage from easy starters such as 5A & 2A & 2B, and of course nothing from counters either. This is the "Dark Ages of Hakumen".

As many characters were strong during CS2, you can't say otherwise than he was weak.

lol.

[Darkside937]

CT

単体性能はともかくSTG勢との相性が悪すぎたからランクは微妙。

He had bad match-ups which is why he was ranked low. (?)

Were you questioning the wording or what they meant by it? If the latter, it's because even though Hakumen was indeed a solid character in CT, he got smeared by the top three (Nu, Rachel, Arakune. Rachel to a lesser extent [6-4], but Nu was terribad [7-3] and Arakune was [8-2, but IMO 8.5-1.5 or 9-1]). He had even or almost even matchups with everyone else, but his stronger tools/aspects (6A, 6B, Zanshin, huge damage from pretty much anything, etc) were not enough to keep him from getting beat the fuck up when facing the top tier.

"Zanshin after throwbreak" is probably referring to how he could escape Carl's pseudo-infinite by teching the purple throw and immediately J.D'ing. This made him one of only a handful of characters that could truly escape it, resulting in him having one of the better matchups against Carl in the game.

Overall, that's a pretty accurate summary. And yeah, LOL at the Dark Ages bit.

[mAc Chaos]

There were no matchups in his favor, but some were 5-5 like Ragna, if I still remember correctly. He was Tager's only good matchup. Good times.

I think Rachel was worse than 6-4.

CS2 was fine for me. I'd gotten over the shock of the change in style by then. It was CS1 that was the big hurdle.

Edited September 4, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Wander]

I forget, wasnt the clap air unblockable? How could j.d counter it?

[mAc Chaos]

It's unblockable against the air. It's just an anti air move, like Ragna 6A that you can counter or barrier.

[toanenadiz]

You couldn't barrier the clap in CT Mac. That is what made the clap loop possible...

[mAc Chaos]

I forget. I guess countering air unblockables is different than ground ones then. Or maybe because Ada is treated as a projectile.

[toanenadiz]

Clap is actually two hits. So maybe only one of them was unblockable and whichever one you countered wasn't the unblockable one. It's strange that this wasn't questioned before.

[Darkside937]

It worked like this:

Clap was fully unblockable in CT. If Carl landed a hit with basically anything, he would call Nirvana to his position and combo into an air purple throw while having her simultaneously perform the clap. If you didn't tech, the throw would land and you would get ground bounced directly below him, where he could purple throw again, and the clap would still hit you. If you DID tech, the clap would meaty unblockable you after the throw break animation, and Carl could jump up and purple throw again.

Hakumen could escape this by breaking the throw, countering on the first possible frame to nullify the clap's hitbox, and air backdashing away (although still at a disadvantage since Carl could chase you via airdash and keep pressuring with mashed j.As). The only other characters that could escape this were Rachel (break the grab and 4D to safety), Ragna (break and 1 frame ID), and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting. If you were not one of these characters and got put in the trap, the round was over. It was burst safe and inescapable save for the above exceptions if the Carl executed it correctly.

[toanenadiz]

I believe Wander's actual question was why did Haku's jD work against the Clap, which is unblockable, while his counters don't work against other unblockable attacks like Tsubaki's charged 22D or Carl's charged 6C? I believe everyone knows (or at least knew when it was relevant) how it worked (the last character who could escape it was Carl, assuming he had Ada near).

[Darkside937]

Oooooohhh, I see.

Actually, that's a good question. Maybe it was a system change made after CT? If someone really wanted to test they could boot up CT and try to counter a fully charged Shippu, but I'm not that curious, lol.

[Wander]

Im curious but i dont have a copy of CT anymore..

[toanenadiz]

I still have all my copies of it. I plan on testing it out whenever I get off of work and get home.

[Isuna]

Wouldn't it be awesome if charged Shippuu actually were useful?

I think it would be cool if it increased damage for every 5F charged or something.

CT

単体性能はともかくSTG勢との相性が悪すぎたからランクは微妙。

He had bad match-ups which is why he was ranked low. (?)

Were you questioning the wording or what they meant by it?

No, I was actually not sure of the translation.

"Simple/stand alone ability (単体性能?) aside, STG-strength (STG勢?) and his match-ups were too bad so his ranking was not too good."

[mAc Chaos]

Charged Shippu does more damage than normal Shippu. 5500 VS 4000. You can use it for some frame traps in some cases, but it's gimmicks. Still awesome when you hit people.