[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BladeOfJustice7]

The reason it worked was because there's a difference between an air unblockable and a true unblockable. A true a unblockable includes fully charged shippu, jin's D dp second hit, tsubaki's 22d, and then you can air unblockables like Ragna's 6a or pretty much any ground normal other than everyone's 5a apart from hakumen.

Nirvana's clap, to me seems like a hybrid of an AA and a true unblockable. However it did not have the properties of a true unblockable in the air, which allowed hakumen to counter it.

And yes it really was the Dark Ages for Hakumen back in CS2 lol, shoutouts to Spark during the time winning EVO.

[Isuna]

Max Charged Shippu does more damage than normal Shippu. 5500 VS 4000. You can use it for some frame traps in some cases, but it's gimmicks. Still awesome when you hit people.

Fixed.

I think it would be interesting if different corner combos lead to that you had different amount of time to charge Shippuu and increase damage.

[mAc Chaos]

During loketests I always wonder how I would balance Hakumen if I was the one doing it.

What if we just took CT Hakumen and gave him 4C and j.C. (Although really if the choice was to get CT Hakumen back I wouldn't even care about 4C and could live without j.C.) The way they changed Hotaru and Tsubaki later on makes it way easier to combo in the corner though. It all depends on the rest of the cast too as far as balance, but I'm talking more about what you think he "should" play like.

[Sophisticat]

I really like his current versatility, but I also think he should primarily be a hard-hitter since that's what he looks like. Big ass sword, strong sense of justice, very strong char. story-wise, etc.

Giving him CT monster dmg back might be a bit much, though. I'm sure there's some sort of balance that can be achieved.

[mAc Chaos]

I think he gets more in Extend and CS1. Especially in the corner. He used to be gimped in the corner, remember. No oki, just lots of tricks. His damage was just more satisfying and explosive.

[Isuna]

Personally, I really like defensive Hakumen. I wouldn't mind seeing making A and B starters lead to no damage, while the slower C attacks leads to great damage. Imagine having a invulnerable backstep, and backstep Ragnas frickin' ID to 5C and kill him. X3

Zanshin leads to greatest damage, of all his starters!

I think it would be more interesting if he had the greatest damage in the game with 8 magatama, but pretty weak with few.

Well, my wishes aside, what I would had done if I actually worked at Arc Systems is probably,

• If our corner carry is a concern, what about removing JB > JA link? If it isn't enough, nerf untechable time of Renka (1)?
  
• If Zanshin is too strong, why not remove damage like someone said, but make the proration better. Normally we can't do to good damage, but with magatama we can. Well, I'd rather nerf the hitbox than start-up or removing the unblockable.
  
• If corner combo is too strong, remove wall bounce from 6A. Still too strong, remove wall bounce from Hotaru?
  
• If our corner combo is too strong, why not shift his game to midscreen game with better Tsubaki/Zantetsu?
  

Useful Mugen?

Mugen to be 4+ instead of 8. Combo rate is normal, but no extra damage (including Shippuu).

[Darkside937]

Hakumen's backdash has 0 frames of invincibility for two very good reasons:

1. Mainly, because he has Hotaru, which is (currently) a safe DP. If he could backdash cancel into it, he would have a nearly 100% safe reversal option for a mere 25% meter, which would be pretty busted since the only reason a mostly safe DP like Hotaru isn't already broken is because it has prejump/dash startup.

2. To a lesser extent, he has Zanshin, which is already a solid option for dealing with meaties. I can understand why they wouldn't want to give him both counters and backdash as that would be too many good options (or really more than what he needs).

I don't think this would be feasible unless they made some major changes to Hotaru (make it punishable). Although to be honest, I'd be fine if they just changed Hakumen's dash canceled specials so they could only be performed on forward hops, since that would circumvent the "true reversal Hotaru" scenario and canceled Hotaru/Tsubaki is rarely useful anyways (the only situation I can think of is maybe backdash Hotaru as anti-air).

Edit: and really, I just want him to have high damage and useful counters. Those are the two traits that define him as a character IMO.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Darkside937

[Warhound]

Useful Mugen?

Mugen to be 4+ instead of 8. Combo rate is normal, but no extra damage (including Shippuu).

Sigh....you know what? This sounds great. I'd love to play a character with a useful install for once. It would be great to actually get to see Mugen in action as opposed to what I used it for in CT, which was for victories.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Warhound

[TheBossGiga]

Im sorry but imo Haku definitely wasnt horrible in cs2 and i sincerely doubt he will be bad in CP. Haku has been a sound character since CS1 it would be hard to nerf him to trash status. If his Magatama cool down stays the same, He still has 4c and Jc, Hotaru exists, his overheads are still almost unreactably fast, and if 6a is a solid anti-air He will be solid. This may be late but cool down a little you guys are just used to being top tier.

P.S: CT haku was weak.

[toanenadiz]

CS2 Haku was the least scary, from a Lambda/Nu perspective. CT was a worse match-up for him but he had that huge damage factor that made him scary.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Im sorry but imo Haku definitely wasnt horrible in cs2 and i sincerely doubt he will be bad in CP.

No, he was bad. he had nothing going for him, if you could name five legit tools he had over his other iterations that made matchups easier please name them.

Haku has been a sound character since CS1 it would be hard to nerf him to trash status.

No he hasn't he was bad in cs2, not Rachel CS1 status, but he was terrible. And people just see the changes going on with him are reminiscent of cs2, hence why they're all bummed out about this game.

Changing his combo system, and changing the properties of his counters drastically (again). IS where people are worried, him having weak counters and weak damage for being a meter dependant character will weaken him back to cs2 status.

If his Magatama cool down stays the same, He still has 4c and Jc, Hotaru exists, his overheads are still almost unreactably fast, and if 6a is a solid anti-air He will be solid.

What overheadS, he only has 2.

6b leads to nothing on hit, it's only meant to pester people and break primers, which it won't be in CP since there's no more primers.

And Tsubaki needs 3 stars and the right set up for it, which we're not sure how we'll be able to combo off a successful Tsubaki.

6a is an average AA, there's better ones in the game.

4c almost sucks, Tager and Carl are the only times that move shines really. It's like the gauntlet hades for hakumen, it only a few changes away from being completely useless lol.

This may be late but cool down a little you guys are just used to being top tier.

No they're just worried about him being shit (again) for the 3rd time in this series. This has been the strongest he's ever been in BB by far.

P.S: CT haku was weak.

His options were weak, but his damage was monstrous, cs2 had limited options and had to play perfectly against your opponent.

[mAc Chaos]

CS2 Haku was the least scary, from a Lambda/Nu perspective. CT was a worse match-up for him but he had that huge damage factor that made him scary.

Yeah, I remember Arcade Fire telling me he wasn't even afraid of me getting near him anymore because all my combos did like 2k and would knock him all the way away from me each time.

But I never thought CS2 Haku was that bad. He was underpowered, but he had all the tools to win if you played him right. I definitely felt the lack of fear from Lambdas though. I don't remember enough to be sure.

It's like the gauntlet hades for hakumen, it only a few changes away from being completely useless lol.

Speak for yourself, Gauntlet Hades is unblockable against me. :P

Edited September 8, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[BladeOfJustice7]

Yeah, I remember Arcade Fire telling me he wasn't even afraid of me getting near him anymore because all my combos did like 2k and would knock him all the way away from me each time.

But I never thought CS2 Haku was that bad. He was underpowered, but he had all the tools to win if you played him right. I definitely felt the lack of fear from Lambdas though. I don't remember enough to be sure.

I absolutely hated cs2 and cs2 hakumen. Though I probably hated cs2 BECAUSE of cs2 hakumen lol.

Speak for yourself, Gauntlet Hades is unblockable against me. :P

The Ragna matchup isn't your strong suit though, it's just like how I'm free the lambda's 4b online. And gauntlet hades is stronger online anyways lol. mAc, did you see my p.m?

[mAc Chaos]

I used to fight Ragnas all the time. :< There aren't really any Ragnas I have problems with outside of the best ones. :P

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that. So many videos. They're probably all good. I was busy getting raped by 80 hours of work last week so I saw the PM and never had a chance to look at the videos. SOON

Edited September 8, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[TheBossGiga]

Ill go into what bladeofjustice7 said later cuz iuno how to quote. But honestly if you think CT haku had in anyway better tools than CS2 iuno where to begin.

CT haku was a incomplete character. Besides 6A and 3c he had no good tools unless you think zanshin is good. By design in CT he was a char that relied on your opponents mistakes to win which may seem good but when your opponents mistakes count more than your own solid playing you have a bad character(like tager).

He had no tools to win at neutral at all he simply had to take what you give him and then guess out with a hard read or punish a bad move. This may work at low levels but the better the people you are playing the more he has to rely luck. His moves were slow and had mad recovery on em so whiff punishing was stupid easy.

Zanshin was better than it is now but the whole idea of a DP that loses to throws and either highs or lows while still just as punishable doesnt make too much sense when a char is sorta built around them, even yukikaze the counter that costs 50heat lost to lows.....

The only thing he had going for him was dmg and if you put it in perspective at the time was not That good. At 1 to 4 mags he got about the same dmg as everyone else did without any heat except he had really shitty normals so on top of being risky really anything you used before like six mags was wasted.

He had no good match-ups point blank because he was so fundamentally weak, even against bang who wasnt so much fundamentally weak than just weak in general(like CS1 tsubaki) was only and even MU.

Literally If you were to put CT haku in any iteration of BB he would be bottom or close to it. I think this CT love can only be chalked up to nostalgia and the fact that back then you were able to get away with such a bad char because most people were bad at the time.

I wana talk about CS2 haku but i typed a bit so il wait BUT 4c being a bad tool is one of the dumbest things ive read in awhile no offense. It simply existing makes haku a much better character.

Edited September 8, 2012 by TheBossGiga

[Sophisticat]

CT Haku wasn't that bad.

Neutral game he had 5/2a, 5b, 6a, 6b, Hotaru, and counters. J.2c was faster as well, and his meter gain was arguably the best we'll ever get. Can't forget his huge burst dmg potential too.

Everything else sucked, lol, but that doesn't make CT his worst iteration. You could turtle until you found the right opening and blow them up once you had an opening because meter gain and sheer, absurd dmg (6k midscreen w/5 mag, lolwut) compensated for some of his weaknesses. If top 3 weren't so dominating, then I think he'd move up a bit in the matchup chart.

CS2 Haku had more/better tools for the most part, but his meter gain and lowered/more even dmg output sort of crippled his capacity to take advantage of them. That didn't stop Spark from winning EVO, but then again that's Spark for ya.

Personally, from worst to best:

CS2

CT

CS1

SEX

:D

[kirbster]

Ill go into what bladeofjustice7 said later cuz iuno how to quote. But honestly if you think CT haku had in anyway better tools than CS2 iuno where to begin.

CT haku was a incomplete character. Besides 6A and 3c he had no good tools unless you think zanshin is good. By design in CT he was a char that relied on your opponents mistakes to win which may seem good but when your opponents mistakes count more than your own solid playing you have a bad character(like tager).

He had no tools to win at neutral at all he simply had to take what you give him and then guess out with a hard read or punish a bad move. This may work at low levels but the better the people you are playing the more he has to rely luck. His moves were slow and had mad recovery on em so whiff punishing was stupid easy.

Zanshin was better than it is now but the whole idea of a DP that loses to throws and either highs or lows while still just as punishable doesnt make too much sense when a char is sorta built around them, even yukikaze the counter that costs 50heat lost to lows.....

The only thing he had going for him was dmg and if you put it in perspective at the time was not That good. At 1 to 4 mags he got about the same dmg as everyone else did without any heat except he had really shitty normals so on top of being risky really anything you used before like six mags was wasted.

He had no good match-ups point blank because he was so fundamentally weak, even against bang who wasnt so much fundamentally weak than just weak in general(like CS1 tsubaki) was only and even MU.

Literally If you were to put CT haku in any iteration of BB he would be bottom or close to it. I think this CT love can only be chalked up to nostalgia and the fact that back then you were able to get away with such a bad char because most people were bad at the time.

I wana talk about CS2 haku but i typed a bit so il wait BUT 4c being a bad tool is one of the dumbest things ive read in awhile no offense. It simply existing makes haku a much better character.

This is a smart post

Also Blade, I will still play BBCP Haku just enough to force you to practice and not let me surpass you with him he is so fun to play

[mAc Chaos]

The CT love isn't because he was good, it was because he was fun.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Ill go into what bladeofjustice7 said later cuz iuno how to quote. But honestly if you think CT haku had in anyway better tools than CS2 iuno where to begin.

CT haku was a incomplete character. Besides 6A and 3c he had no good tools unless you think zanshin is good. By design in CT he was a char that relied on your opponents mistakes to win which may seem good but when your opponents mistakes count more than your own solid playing you have a bad character(like tager).

Yes, you're right ct hakumen was incomplete, people who know me heard me saying this A LOT lol. I only need to mention being stuck in the same position when cutting arakune's bee or nu's sword portal super for like 5 seconds lol and yukikaze losing to lows.

He lacked a lot of tools, no pokes, and really needed you to make a mistake and could not initiate offense really. Which is why I wouldn't want to revert back to CT swag to be honest with you. But at least he had one thing going for him, damage. That's my point, IF he got in on you, yes it's a big if, but if he did you're losing half you life bar, coupled with the fact of how dangerous bursts were? If you burst and he hit you, or burst after he did 6c and had 4 stars, that was usually the end of the round. He had a fear factor about him.

He had no tools to win at neutral at all he simply had to take what you give him and then guess out with a hard read or punish a bad move. This may work at low levels but the better the people you are playing the more he has to rely luck. His moves were slow and had mad recovery on em so whiff punishing was stupid easy.

Zanshin was better than it is now but the whole idea of a DP that loses to throws and either highs or lows while still just as punishable doesnt make too much sense when a char is sorta built around them, even yukikaze the counter that costs 50heat lost to lows.....

The only thing he had going for him was dmg and if you put it in perspective at the time was not That good. At 1 to 4 mags he got about the same dmg as everyone else did without any heat except he had really shitty normals so on top of being risky really anything you used before like six mags was wasted.

Yea pretty much everything you just said was what was wrong with hakumen back in CT. But other than Yukikaze where did cs2 hakumen shine? His, in particular midscreen was, was nowhere near thee squirrel girl. In cs2 the fundamental characteristics of hakumen that defined his weaknesses (lack of mobility), were gone. His pay off from getting a successful counter was gone (2k dmg), and because of no jb>j2a you had even less corner carry from his counters usually as well since jc would usually miss off a combo from 5d for instance. His meter gain was incredibly slow and had no way of punishing jump ins on him (unlike ct hakumen), and his corner carry was crap and was very star reliant, compared to other cast members who had much higher damage output without the need to meter and placed you in the corner and HAD enough meter do wreck your health in the corner.

Not to mention bursting from any character for the first time took a major dent in his offensive when done during his combos, because not only did you lose stars but you also had to deal with a magatama regen cooldown in addition to your incredibly slow meter gain. So what would normally happen to you after you just spent almost 4 stars to get that 3k corner carry is, your opponent could burst, you just lost 3 stars and now you can't do anything, so they can rush your ass down with an IAD because you have no way of AA them and you have no stars to do anything. SO they get to initiate pressure against you, and your only tool is Zanshin or hope you can jump out (keeping in mind makoto's pressure lasted forever, Valk's pressure was/is pretty much unblockable lol, and Hazama has a strong mixup game that can get passed Zanshin or keep you grounded). SO you're at a disadvantage from your opponent bursting out of your combo more than any other character in the cast.

You mentioned mixup game and in cs2 hakumen's mixup game wasn't great either. Yes you could get a trm, but you couldn't do anything with it unless your'e in the corner, tsubaki had begun to slide so that was also useless outside of the corner, so you only really had 6b to pester people. His midscreen options were extremely gimped. So whatever you did, it pushed your opponent away from you, forcing you to get back closer to you opponent, you get a grab it knocks them away from you, you land 6b they could roll away, I think MAYBE you could catch a roll away with 2b but I'm not sure about that.

And hen finally he didn't really have any good matchups really, outside of Carl and Tager, plus his damage in the corner was nowhere it is now, I think his combos were max 6k or so, keeping in mind, that your opponent only needs to burst once they see how much stars you're dedicating to your combos and they just need to burst at the right time to only free themselves from your damage and corner trap, but also your options on neutral. Oh yes also keeping in mind all of the cs1 combos did less damage, since pretty much all of his slashes got either a damage nerf and/or were slowed down except for like 5c/4c.

He had no good match-ups point blank because he was so fundamentally weak, even against bang who wasnt so much fundamentally weak than just weak in general(like CS1 tsubaki) was only and even MU.

Literally If you were to put CT haku in any iteration of BB he would be bottom or close to it. I think this CT love can only be chalked up to nostalgia and the fact that back then you were able to get away with such a bad char because most people were bad at the time.

CT - he had absurb damage from anything, yes he was incomplete but he had SOMETHING going for him that made people afraid.

CS1 - He really shined when it came to damage payoff from Zanshin

CS2 - Yukikaze and a faster kishuu? But you can rebuttle here

CSEX - I don't really need to state where he excels lol. But it is finally where I consider hakumen complete, but it's not that we're afraid of hakumen not being one of the best 3 characters in the game we're afraid of him being fundamentally weak again. Where his counters are nigh useless and his damage output is subpar compared to more mobile characters who have an easier time initiating offense.

I wana talk about CS2 haku but i typed a bit so il wait BUT 4c being a bad tool is one of the dumbest things ive read in awhile no offense. It simply existing makes haku a much better character.

I didn't say bad, I said almost useless, the risk/reward for throwing that move can be lop sided in certain matchups, it's slower than 5c (15 frame start up for 4c as opposed to 5c's 13 frames), and it's in CH state from the entire beginning frame to last frame of the move. Yes it is a very long distance poke, but it also extends his hitbox as well, which goes back to the CH state for the entire move.

Matchups like Ragna or any rushdown character this move can't and shouldn't be used because it's easy to get around it, the matchups where it shines are Carl and Tager really. Other than, I can't think of where ever else it shines. y=Yes it has it's uses, just like gauntlet hades, but either making it faster (10 frame start up) or removing the CH state duration would make it more safe. Perosnally when it comes to pokes I tend to rely on jc's very close to the ground, whenever I have to play footsies.

CT Haku wasn't that bad.

Neutral game he had 5/2a, 5b, 6a, 6b, Hotaru, and counters. J.2c was faster as well, and his meter gain was arguably the best we'll ever get. Can't forget his huge burst dmg potential too.

Everything else sucked, lol, but that doesn't make CT his worst iteration. You could turtle until you found the right opening and blow them up once you had an opening because meter gain and sheer, absurd dmg (6k midscreen w/5 mag, lolwut) compensated for some of his weaknesses. If top 3 weren't so dominating, then I think he'd move up a bit in the matchup chart.

CS2 Haku had more/better tools for the most part, but his meter gain and lowered/more even dmg output sort of crippled his capacity to take advantage of them. That didn't stop Spark from winning EVO, but then again that's Spark for ya.

Personally, from worst to best:

CS2

CT

CS1

SEX

:D

lol, and yes that's how I would order them from worst to best as well.

This is a smart post

Also Blade, I will still play BBCP Haku just enough to force you to practice and not let me surpass you with him he is so fun to play

I wouldn't drop him, I have too much character loyalty/attachment to drop him.

I'm sure there are points that I'm forgetting to add but that's all I could think of at the top of my head.

[TheBossGiga]

Ok i still dont feel like typing much so this will be kinda short. So onto CS2 Haku. Overall he had the Best normals out of any of the previous iterations of haku. He had actual control of space and because of that haku could control the pace of the match. He could confirm any hit into Oki if you wanted to something that CT haku wouldnt even recognize. His dmg was actually similar to what it is now for the most part. His meter gain was nerfed pretty badly which is what put the breaks on his dmg held his game back for the most part. if he got a buff to this alone he would've been A tier. Imo CS2 haku was the most well balanced ver. of haku yet. The only notable buffs he got were upper invul 6a, increased meter gain, increased J.b untech time and gat into J.2a, a special cancellable forward throw, and a sick kishuu i think everything else were nerfs But still that was all he needed to become top tier. Their were no drastic changes to his character design or boosted proration just a few buffs here and there and he was godlike. Forgive me for not going into too much detail i forced myself to type this.

[mAc Chaos]

Best normals? This is after the 2A nerf and the 6A nerf.

[TheBossGiga]

Sry for double post didnt see your post but i wana RESPOND btw i learned how to quote

But other than Yukikaze where did cs2 hakumen shine?

Neutral.

If you hadn't noticed they changed haku's entire design by then he wasn't a char that punished mistakes instead he was a character that the the opponent had to play around because he pretty much had tools in all game states(offense,neutral,defense) that dictated how you can play against him. The thing is his meter gain kinda dictated what he could do aswell

His, in particular midscreen was, was nowhere near thee squirrel girl

It actually was -_-.. i Hate the top tier effect. just because she was top tier doesnt mean every single thing about her was better than everyone lower tier. Really unless you still believe mak is a neutral god in EX she wasnt that much stronger than haku in neutral if at all because not much changed about her pokes and speed from CS2 to Ex.

Not to mention bursting from any character for the first time took a major dent in his offensive when done during his combos, because not only did you lose stars but you also had to deal with a magatama regen cooldown in addition to your incredibly slow meter gain.

This is for the most part true. But its really not as bad as your making it out to be. the cool down was somewhere between 3-5 secs after an attack that cost 2+stars so unless they bursted Right after you've used an attack you only gota wait like a second or 2 before it kicks back in. Besides his meter gain wasnt that bad On most combos 3 mags or under he gains enough back to almost breaks even And Besides that haku has the advantage in neutral.

So what would normally happen to you after you just spent almost 4 stars to get that 3k corner carry is, your opponent could burst, you just lost 3 stars and now you can't do anything, so they can rush your ass down with an IAD because you have no way of AA them and you have no stars to do anything. SO they get to initiate pressure against you, and your only tool is Zanshin or hope you can jump out (keeping in mind makoto's pressure lasted forever, Valk's pressure was/is pretty much unblockable lol, and Hazama has a strong mixup game that can get passed Zanshin or keep you grounded). SO you're at a disadvantage from your opponent bursting out of your combo more than any other character in the cast.

Well first you wouldn't be using 4mag(3 actually) unless you wanted almost full screen corner carry, Second you wouldn't use that many mags if you wouldn't have enough to do a decent corner combo after,and Third im not sure if you heard but haku's 5a as an anti air is actually pretty good, but really it is by no means easy getting in on haku if your playing right (unless your tao, lambda, or valk) im not saying its impossible but it is definitely not easy. So if your actually getting IAD'd on regularly and feel helpless while its happening that's your fault.

Really though that entire situation was based on bad haku play

You mentioned mixup game and in cs2 hakumen's mixup game wasn't great either. Yes you could get a trm, but you couldn't do anything with it unless your'e in the corner, tsubaki had begun to slide so that was also useless outside of the corner, so you only really had 6b to pester people. His midscreen options were extremely gimped. So whatever you did, it pushed your opponent away from you, forcing you to get back closer to you opponent, you get a grab it knocks them away from you, you land 6b they could roll away, I think MAYBE you could catch a roll away with 2b but I'm not sure about that.

6b gets you oki, if the dont emergency tech you can follow up with 2b,5a, air stuff for like 1-2k and some corner carry, if you decide to wait until they normal tech 2b should beat both rolls and you can confirm into like 2-3k even about 5k if your feeling very generous 6b is ok for what it is. Tsubaki can also be followed up for about 3k anywhere on screen 5k in the corner. And damn yo zantetsu is still a move lol.

I didn't say bad, I said almost useless, the risk/reward for throwing that move can be lop sided in certain matchups, it's slower than 5c (15 frame start up for 4c as opposed to 5c's 13 frames), and it's in CH state from the entire beginning frame to last frame of the move. Yes it is a very long distance poke, but it also extends his hitbox as well, which goes back to the CH state for the entire move.

Matchups like Ragna or any rushdown character this move can't and shouldn't be used because it's easy to get around it, the matchups where it shines are Carl and Tager really. Other than, I can't think of where ever else it shines. y=Yes it has it's uses, just like gauntlet hades, but either making it faster (10 frame start up) or removing the CH state duration would make it more safe. Perosnally when it comes to pokes I tend to rely on jc's very close to the ground, whenever I have to play footsies.

I never thought that i'd have to argue that haku's 4c is a good tool. It just being there makes it hard to just run up on him. it being special cancellable make it so that if it hits you can confirm into pressure and or a combo. If it were any faster it would be broken as hell, the extended hitbox problem only comes into play if they specifically and directly call it out which if they are actively attempting to do then you have an extreme opening on your hands that you can exploit. like you said though against tager and carl it ascends from just being great to godlike and also like you said J.c is even better but that still doesn't make it bad.

Best normals? This is after the 2A nerf and the 6A nerf.

The 2a nerf was definitely not significant at all. 6A was big but a special cancellable 4c and every single C getting a few frames faster and 5c getting 100p1 is much bigger bro

But to summarize while cs2 hakumen had a few good match-up CT haku had none at all and i doubt he would ever if he stayed the same. After Ct haku had more going for him than just dmg his neutral became much much stronger and he actually got oki. you gota see this objectively man he's simply better than ct in the most important ways most of the weaknesses you stated for cs2 haku CT haku had to a far greater extent(save meter gain) even in CT his greatest strength his strength, was not even strong cuz more people simply hit more, more often ,for less and saying that top three held him back from being higher is wrong those matchups would have only went from terrible to horrible those three have never been good match-ups for haku regardless of how good he's gotten or how bad they've gotten(4get cs1 rach please) those three didnt magically make hakumen have bad matchups against everyone else so he would have definitely stayed bottom regardless.

Im glad this is Haku general i cant shake the feeling that im derailing the thread

Edited September 8, 2012 by TheBossGiga

[Sophisticat]

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement here. It basically boils down to:

Better hit confirm < ----- > More damage

Take a left for CS2 Haku, right for CT. Personally, I'd take the higher dmg over better tools so CT Haku'd be my choice. Some would prefer being able to land more hits for less dmg. So it depends.

[toanenadiz]

I have no idea if any of your posts were directed at me but I was just going by fear factor, where CT Hakumen was overall scarier than CS2 Haku. CS2 Haku was a much better character overall but I was scared of him less than CT Haku. I haven't seen CS2 Haku do things like this (stealing your clip Mac): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7IXbyitoyo#t=2m20s .

It isn't completely logical I know, but a fear factor isn't something you can always objectively define.

[Sophisticat]

FFFFFFFF...

I keep forgetting just how much dmg he actually could dish out. 5k after 5D? Lololol...

I checked some of his old combos. I used to be all over 6c CH because that was his best normal starter. It turns out 6c CH -> 5c -> Dustloop did 5k. 2 stars. 5k. Friggin' insane.