[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Spark]

You can combo off CH agito right? So TKing agito to bait throws seems good since it's cheaper than tsubaki and hotaru. Hopefully it's safe on block.

[mAc Chaos]

Actually I thought you couldn't.

[Sophisticat]

I have a question for you guys who have played a lot of Hakumen, do you like these changes?

I don't mean particuary nerfs or buffs or so, but how he is changing?

I think they're going a bit overboard with the change to j.2a. J.2a -> AD j.2a was staple Haku and part of what defined the character. So now you have a move with an animation that doesn't really fit. What's j.2a going to be other than a combo piece?

They would have to give him a more radical redesign such as adding Mist Finer-ish slashes to make up for the lost corner carry. If they instead turn him into a mid-screen brawler, how does that fit with his character-defining sword length? Only 4c, 6c, and j.C really take advantage of it, and none are more than situational pokes. At the same time, his mixup sucks and tick throw's getting nerfed so they would have to add frame trap moves or something to make him viable at close-range. If TK Agito is an overhead (?), then I think he'll be ok there.

As for counters, that doesn't bother me as much. They'll still do their job and I'm ok with that.

Aside from that, I'll need to see how he turns out in practice. I'm honestly a bit confused as to what they're trying to do with him...

[CupofT]

Would you still be able to 2D supers? Like a Hazama wakeup Houtenjin. 6D is clearly out of the question with the slower startup.

[Warhound]

^Because of the throw range nerf (possibly for all characters), 2A>throw doesn't connect anymore like before.

I'll probably cope and play the game just like I did during CS2, though I think I have a bit more hope than before since this is a new game and none of us are sure how the game will go yet.

I'm okay with the blockable drives as long as if Haku is still plus on block, though I'm still irked that 6D looks like it'll stick to the weird start up for now.

I think that was a question I addressed in his initial loketests. Unless they've changed it, no doesn't look like we really get anything if they can block the catch.

You can combo off CH agito right? So TKing agito to bait throws seems good since it's cheaper than tsubaki and hotaru. Hopefully it's safe on block.

I guess we'll have to see, since the info we got, the guy doesn't sound sure. Hope it's true, that'd be a useful option to have.

Sounds like they effectively shat all over 6D as move. Oh well, back to using j.D constantly.

[mAc Chaos]

According to one of the info dumps we got, you can't combo off CH hop Agito. It's in that info thread, near the top. I knew I remembered that from somewhere. Was one of the first things I thought of when trying to figure out if Agito would be good. http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14863-CHRONO-PHANTASMA-Hakumen-Loketest-Info-(INFO-ONRY)

Of course, maybe it changed since then.

[itsme]

From the latest jbbs, there were reports of Agito causing floor bounce on CH though I'm not sure if it's combo-able or not. I still think it's a bit too early to discuss combos but I wonder if Agito>Hotaru connects for some IAD cross up combos.

Also, Agito may possibly be plus or at least neutral on block considering someone pointed out it can be used to fill in the recovery for Hotaru, though it might have been in a sense of a frame trap more than making it safe.

Also, posted the translation to the combo portion of CP.

Edited November 13, 2012 by itsme

[Isuna]

I think they're going a bit overboard with the change to j.2a. J.2a -> AD j.2a was staple Haku and part of what defined the character. So now you have a move with an animation that doesn't really fit. What's j.2a going to be other than a combo piece?

Exactly my thoughts.

At the same time, his mixup sucks and tick throw's getting nerfed so they would have to add frame trap moves or something to make him viable at close-range. If TK Agito is an overhead (?), then I think he'll be ok there.

Agito is sadly not an overhead. But isn't semi-combable 6B, faster dash and added gatling 2A > 3C things that would improbe mix-up?

Would you still be able to 2D supers? Like a Hazama wakeup Houtenjin. 6D is clearly out of the question with the slower startup.

There are no changes to the start-up of 2D. However, you cannot combo of it.

Oh well, back to using j.D constantly.

Didn't anyone say that JD has minimum height now?

[Warhound]

Didn't anyone say that JD has minimum height now?

Like you can only activate it close to the ground? If that's the case, still no problems here.

[itsme]

^Nah, more like you have to wait a bit after jumping if you want to use it. So no up back jD.

Also, I like the 2A>3C gatling for the low mag reset, even if it saves only a mag it still helps conserve energy.

Edited November 14, 2012 by itsme

[Warhound]

^Nah, more like you have to wait a bit after jumping if you want to use it. So no up back jD.

Ah. That's totes butt, bro.

[Sophisticat]

Agito is sadly not an overhead.

Well, darn.

But isn't semi-combable 6B, faster dash and added gatling 2A > 3C things that would improbe mix-up?

That's cool to have on 6b, but I wonder if it would be efficient to break 2.5k because of proration? Still a nice addition, though.

Faster dash improves pressure/movement for sure, but not convinced mixup gets better. If TK/Hop Agito were an OH, then this would be a gdlk change for sure. Tsubaki/Hotaru/Agito option select omfg. That would scare the crap out of everyone, lol.

Hmm... 2a -> 3c doesn't strike me as more than a minor pressure option on block, and a chance for oki on hit. Maybe you could do some sort of small mind game there with 2a -> 3c/6b? Since throw range got nerfed universally, then there's less chance to be thrown out of 6b if spaced right. Both options beat mashing, and 6b beats lows and throw/jump-out attempts. Could be worth experimenting with.

But these still aren't enough to address his deficiencies, though. Nice additions, but not enough. Unless 6b can lead to major damage, he still needs a reliable overhead for his mixup to be viable.

That's my take, anyway.

[mAc Chaos]

I would like the faster dash speed, but without the 2A > throw setup it becomes a lot less good. Or rather that's all I would've used it for.

Instead of 3C wouldn't it be better to just do 2A 2B on block. But if you land the 2A then it's a different story.

[dioxideUniversa]

The hop speed is still a buff even if its major use would've been something like 2a > TRM. The change will still be useful for footsies.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah I know. I was just imagining how great it would've been with the TRM though. I would just never stop.

[Isuna]

If Izayoi is kind of a projectile-Hakumen, is it a conspiracy from Arc to nerf Hakumen so bad that everyone tries out the new character? (OДO)

[BladeOfJustice7]

^lol

[Isuna]

Does this increase the lol-factor?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30179551.jpg

Btw, one guy at the JBBS noted that JC doesn't have repeat proration... even tough it got wall stick.

Could this be the secret to corner damage?

[itsme]

Even though I honestly have more fun playing Platinum at times compared to Haku, he'll probably never leave my main spot.

^Also, I was just thinking about that when I read about it. If the 2C float is really nerfed as they said it felt like, maybe something like ~jC>5C>2C>[rising jC>land 5C>2C]xn~ or some sort of corner loop like that might work? After reading about how Enma seeming to have SMP made me wonder if Agito has any increased untechable time during Mugen like Tsubaki, and am wondering if we'll get a Hirentotsu/Agito loop in CP.

[Isuna]

I enjoyed playing Tager a lot more, just because I did his challenges 1 to 9 in like one hour, while it took me 4 hours just to get the dustloop for Hakumen once.

Anyway, if I gotta be honest, I'm seriously thinking of switching to Izayoi if she turns out to be a projectile-Hakumen. I'm too bad too have such an loyalty as you guys.

Though, I promise, Hakumen will always have a place in my heart.

[dioxideUniversa]

no offense, but you've been one of the quickest to pronounce hakumen DOA months before experienced players have even had a chance to get hands-on with the new version, which is still not even finished. it's not some kind of masochistic brand-loyalty to still want to play your main when the changes don't change him too fundamentally, as memorable as j.2a > AD j.2a is.

a lot of the changes aren't fantastic, but it does not realistically seem like he is going to be cs1 rachel-levels of broken with the changes. it also still depends on how the rest of the cast turns out--it's still too early to say for certain.

also yes, tager has a significantly lower learning curve than hakumen in terms of execution. everyone is a tager sub.

[mAc Chaos]

I enjoyed playing Tager a lot more, just because I did his challenges 1 to 9 in like one hour, while it took me 4 hours just to get the dustloop for Hakumen once.

Anyway, if I gotta be honest, I'm seriously thinking of switching to Izayoi if she turns out to be a projectile-Hakumen. I'm too bad too have such an loyalty as you guys.

Though, I promise, Hakumen will always have a place in my heart.

You'll enjoy grinding out the wins with Haku even more once you have to earn them more.

[Sophisticat]

You'll enjoy grinding out the wins with Haku even more once you have to earn them more.

I'm honestly tired of going against the grain to win, myself. Part of why I like CSEX Haku so much.

[Wander]

Izayoi lools pretty interesting, shes almost like a female hakumen with her color scheme, heat gauge and justice. I really hope shes a character i can play since I still dont have a real sub

[BladeOfJustice7]

Even though I honestly have more fun playing Platinum at times compared to Haku, he'll probably never leave my main spot.

^Also, I was just thinking about that when I read about it. If the 2C float is really nerfed as they said it felt like, maybe something like ~jC>5C>2C>[rising jC>land 5C>2C]xn~ or some sort of corner loop like that might work? After reading about how Enma seeming to have SMP made me wonder if Agito has any increased untechable time during Mugen like Tsubaki, and am wondering if we'll get a Hirentotsu/Agito loop in CP.

Except Mori has stated he's doing his best to remove loops from the game. Even though I can't imagine an ArcSys game without any loops whatsoever lol.

I enjoyed playing Tager a lot more, just because I did his challenges 1 to 9 in like one hour, while it took me 4 hours just to get the dustloop for Hakumen once.

Anyway, if I gotta be honest, I'm seriously thinking of switching to Izayoi if she turns out to be a projectile-Hakumen. I'm too bad too have such an loyalty as you guys.

Though, I promise, Hakumen will always have a place in my heart.

Tagers combos are hella easy compared to Pretty much the rest fo the cast, AC/J2C x n>gadget finger>stuff>GIGANTIC!!!!

no offense, but you've been one of the quickest to pronounce hakumen DOA months before experienced players have even had a chance to get hands-on with the new version, which is still not even finished. it's not some kind of masochistic brand-loyalty to still want to play your main when the changes don't change him too fundamentally, as memorable as j.2a > AD j.2a is.

a lot of the changes aren't fantastic, but it does not realistically seem like he is going to be cs1 rachel-levels of broken with the changes. it also still depends on how the rest of the cast turns out--it's still too early to say for certain.

also yes, tager has a significantly lower learning curve than hakumen in terms of execution. everyone is a tager sub.

Hakumen always like he was above average in terms of execution and learning to use his tools in matches. He's nowhere near as hard as Valk to use optimally, but he's nowhere near "pick up and play" type of character.

I spent a month mastering Hakumen's super jump corner loops. I literally just sat in training mode sweating trying to do those loops until my left wrist was hurting, and even then I didn't stop. You can't just give up characters based off loketests. The way I see it, learning to use their shittier iterations just makes you all that much more of a better player. That's why I grinded out playing on stick and learning to develop my skills with cs2 Hakumen, now look at me with CSEX hakumen. Nolan can vouch for me on this.

You'll enjoy grinding out the wins with Haku even more once you have to earn them more.

that and flat out blowing someone up after you figured out their tendencies and are outright afraid of you

I'm honestly tired of going against the grain to win, myself. Part of why I like CSEX Haku so much.

:o

Does this increase the lol-factor?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30179551.jpg

It does significantly actually :3

Edited November 14, 2012 by BladeOfJustice7