[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Mightfo]

You can buffer dash jabs and lose no frames. At most you only lose one frame, otherwise Ragna would not be able to do dash 5A after 22C in FC combos, however I am sure that you don't lose any frames at all.

actually im pretty sure the 5a 22c thing is a weird special dash jab that bb lets you do which allows an otherwise impossible link or something, i remember reading about that. it is weird as fuck and i can understand how that would be deceiving.

anyway, i believe what i said because i went and tested jab dashes in pressure and because it makes sense with how runs seem to work in general in this game in my experience. go test runs with makoto 2a and stuff. you definitely "lose" at least one frame-which means that hakumen would not be broken with a run, as i pointed out.

I don't get your point on Ragna's pressure. It's no different from what I'm saying. He has no safe ways to reset pressure, dashing in after a minus move is one of those unsafe ways.

you said that the reason ragna's pressure is unsafe is because dashing after a - move is unsafe, i pointed out that isn't why ragna's pressure is judged poorly. ragna's pressure problems have very little to do with jabs and early normals which is most of what we're talking about regarding hakumen. its not that ragna is really that different in terms of running restarts(2a 2c for example) but that his options towards the end of his chains he is worse than say, makoto or litchi, which is not really what we're talking about. but everyone has to take risks eventually, especially hakumen, even if he had a run.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mightfo

[Fluck]

Who did you test with? Makoto's 2A is 6 frames instead of the standard 7 so that can mess with things.

[Skeletal Minion]

I already covered my thoughts on most of this in that huge write up I did about Haku's pressure a while back, so I'll try to keep this short.

>Haku's pressure

>Good

Ha, no. His pressure took a major hit when they nerfed his frame advantage in CS2, but even in CS1 it wasn't exactly spectacular. In all BBs except CS1 (and even then to a degree), there are simply too many instances during regular, non-fancy strings where his opponent can IB and jab. This is largely because:

1. Haku's fastest normal is 7 frames (excluding 5A since it whiffs everyone crouching except for Haku and Tager, making it worthless outside those matchups as far as pressure is concerned) vs. most opponent's 5f or 6f. Even if you do a 2B, giving you +2, they can just frame a 5f normal to trade with your 2A, or IB to make you -1, making it so they only need 4f to get a hitbox out vs. your 7f.

2. They can barrier to push you out after two blocked normals, requiring you to hop/6A/Kishuu back in. Barrier only adds +1 to their recovery in BB, so the increased risk on them is negligible.

However, there are a few saving graces that make Haku's pressure usable.

1. Late gatlings. By late chaining a 2A into, say, another 2A, you're effectively increasing your frame advantage on the first 2A enough to make the second one "safe enough."

2. Special cancels. Frame trapping by cancelling into Renka can be a great option for the reason mentioned above (so long as its meter cost is kept in mind).

3. Drive cancels. This mainly applies to instances where opponents IB a 6A to make you -3, but can also be useful to fend off other attempts to punish blocked A normals. Unfortunately, it carries the downside of being insanely risky if you misread and they keep blocking, but at least the option to use it as a deterrent is there if they start getting sassy with your 6A.

4. Hops. If you want to know more look at my pressure write up a while back in this thread, but being able to throw out a safe DP any time you have two or more magatama works pretty well as an anti-mash option.

tl;dr: Hakumen's pressure is holier than a pope carved out of Swiss cheese. There are often several instances where your opponent can IB > jab to expose you, or straight up mash out of a hop if you didn't Hotaru. The deterrents available to Haku work well enough, but having pressure built on "You can mash me out here, but don't, because there's a chance I'll blow you up with X" is not nearly as good as just having inherently tight pressure thanks to true gatlings. Giving him a run wouldn't even benefit him unless they gave him actual gatlings to go with it instead of his late ones, PLUS you would lose access to dash-cancelled Hotaru/Tsubaki, meaning they could disrespect you anytime there's a hole unless you want to stop and TK one of them, which would still be inferior to a dash-cancelled version as you would lose the benefit of moving forward and having frame advantage after the special (neither version is plus on block when TK'd, instead having varying amounts of plus depending on which frame you execute it during his hop).

Both he and his pressure would like be worse overall.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Skeletal Minion

[Mightfo]

Who did you test with? Makoto's 2A is 6 frames instead of the standard 7 so that can mess with things.

i tested with litchi 2a. my execution isnt the best though so if i messed up then whatever. in before someone who is an expert on running in BB somehow finds this discussion and tells us what's up

1. Haku's fastest normal is 7 frames (excluding 5A since it whiffs everyone crouching except for Haku and Tager, making it worthless outside those matchups as far as pressure is concerned) vs. most opponent's 5f or 6f. Even if you do a 2B, giving you +2, they can just frame a 5f normal to trade with your 2A, or IB to make you -1, making it so they only need 4f to get a hitbox out vs. your 7f.

arent the charas with normals faster than 7f that hit crouchers tsubaki, noel, platinum, bang, tao, hazama, noel, makoto and carl? good chunk of the cast but just barely under half

edit: oh wait, litchi 5a hits haku crouching, so i guess that counts as well vs haku, so that's a majority. only litchi and makoto's big-chara-only 5a are 5f tho, bang's isnt anymore etc

btw good points about dash cancelled hotaru etc

wtf why am i posting so much in this GD i dont even play this character

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mightfo

[Skeletal Minion]

Even the chars who have 7f normals can IB and jab if they instant blocked and you didn't cancel using one of the methods I mentioned.

[Isuna]

I took a detour to the arcade and luckily there were two Hakumen players there.

Don't know if it has been mentioned somewhere esle but, Zantetsu got a HUGE proration buff

[itsme]

Just finished watching some CP Haku livestream day one tech. He is looking way better than I anticipated.

[dioxideUniversa]

i recorded said footage and will have it uploaded in a couple hours. were there more matches than the arakune and plat ones? tuned in late.

[itsme]

There were a lot of streams and I was watching the latter part of the Naka Joy stream so not sure, the one I watched had a Plat, Rachel and Ragna.

[Isuna]

The little I saw, he seemed pretty good as long as he was on the ground, but the aerial combos including the corner ones didn't look too satisfying.

Double Zantetsu gave 5k midscreen from what seemed to be uncomplete combo.

Anyone seen any 6D?

[dioxideUniversa]

Double Zantetsu

be still my beating heart

Anyone seen any 6D?

i saw 5d get blocked. that's almost 6d

There were a lot of streams and I was watching the latter part of the Naka Joy stream so not sure, the one I watched had a Plat, Rachel and Ragna.

I can't jp so i'm not sure what i was watching. ): http://www.twitch.tv/central804/ whatever this one is!

I saw stalling in the air with Agito, which was used to bait an AA one time. Not much else interesting--I saw him parry a projectile a couple of times but I was too distracted to check if it gave meter or not.

Edited November 21, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[itsme]

The little I saw, he seemed pretty good as long as he was on the ground, but the aerial combos including the corner ones didn't look too satisfying.

Double Zantetsu gave 5k midscreen from what seemed to be uncomplete combo.

Anyone seen any 6D?

Eh, I saw a lot of janky corner combos too but I think it's possible to expand on it in the future.

Also, double Zantetsu into 5k sounds nice but I thought Zantetsu was supposed to have SMP? I guess we'll just figure more about combos in the future.

I saw how the new 6D looks but haven't seen it actually succeed yet, it really looks like a safer alternative to 5D since it's recovery is supposed to be really fast. I think I also read in the jbbs that it possibly does have a better proration compared to the other drives.

@dioxideUniversa

I think that's the Hachiouji stream, got to saw like two games of Chibaken's Haku at the end too. Agito is looking really good, especially as a pressure tool. The stream I've been watching showed that the ender is decent enough to provide a quick oki setup and it seems to be able to provide good overhead pressure since it seems to be plus on block because of how the Haku was able to constantly pull an Agito > jB blockstring; even on whiff he just fell to the ground to block or was mashing on jA at times to beat the opponent out of a throw or something. And also, the free mags gain from just catching projectiles is looking really good, every time the Rachel challenged him, he made a lot of mags easy just by catching the rods, George and Tempest Dahlia.

[StarGazer]

Snip

Hakumen's pressure is weak Decent good.

But he doesn't need a good "pressure" like most of the characters to achieve a strong offense.

[Isuna]

Eh, I saw a lot of janky corner combos too but I think it's possible to expand on it in the future.

JC > 5C link seems to be really close, so I am unsure

Also, double Zantetsu into 5k sounds nice but I thought Zantetsu was supposed to have SMP?

Oh yeah... hmmmmmm

I saw how the new 6D looks but haven't seen it actually succeed yet

I just saw it once today, when I was watching the other machine, for a moment I thought it was back, but I guess I'm wrong. ):

It wasn't follow-upped though, maybe it isn't possible anymore?

Also, I thought it looked like Agito ender was neutral at best?

[dioxideUniversa]

oh god yeah i just saw the free meter from projectile parries. i'm drooling

he also gets a star from cutting projectiles too. a lot of times when i'm watching he just has tons of meter all the time

here's a spoiler from the matches i got: http://puu.sh/1sGJu

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrOEhfUk4DA go nuts

Edited November 21, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[Kriegdrache]

Meter for days sounds pretty nice.

Also, Zantetsu proration buff. <3333333

Watching footage and not having the opponent go flying when Haku throws them is weird. Same with no J2A > J2A. This is gonna take some getting used to

Oh and Hakumen's voice sounds a billion times more bad ass.

MUDA-DA!

Edited November 21, 2012 by Kriegdrache

[BladeOfJustice7]

#RIP6D

Could anyone explain why he has so much meter, ALL.THE.TIME?

Not gonna say anything on his combos yet, but so far look EXTREMELY meter inefficient. I saw 2d blocked by Chibaken's match against arakune.

Aesthetically, he looks and sounds fucking awesome. Gameplay wise, I'm biased and the game just came out. So I think I'll need a month or so to feel this nigga out.

It's like they fused what was great about his ct and cs voice, and left out all the bad parts. Owaran zo...

[mAc Chaos]

Wait so, if he counters something like Nu's sword super, he would get a star for each counter?

Well, if the combos are inefficient I guess it makes up for it if he has a lot of stars.

Either way I just want to play him. I'll just find out what makes him good and roll with it.

[mAc Chaos]

Just saw Haku combo off normal hit 6B for 1.5k. That's new.

Or maybe it was CH. Hm.

[TheBossGiga]

Haku's heat gain is absurd now, He gains like a star passively every 4 seconds and when he lands a hit,blocks, gets hit, or ib's it jumps. I seen him gain at least 19 stars in one round. He's pretty decent right now

[Sophisticat]

Yo, where you guys getting all this new Haku footage? I want to watch, too!

[Wander]

Yo, where you guys getting all this new Haku footage? I want to watch, too!

I just search bb:cp hakumen on youtube and sort it by upload date, covers most of the haku vids that gets uploaded

[Sophisticat]

It sounds like most in here are watching a stream, though.

No matter, I just caught a vid and I don't like what I'm seeing of CP. Shit looks gay.

[mAc Chaos]

Kind of reminds me of Guilty Gear. :3

[Warhound]

Dunno if this is known info or not but, apparently Agito can combo into a falling j.B > 2C on CH. So, that's good news, I guess.