[CS1] Noel Beginner Questions: You Gotta Start Somewhere

[LunaKage]

I find myself whiffing a "D", I see opponent IAD'ing going for a crossup. In my head 'I'm still recovering what are my fucking options'?

1. Attempt to 4D so your opponent wiffs or gets hit.

2. Spring Raid and hope it comes out fast enough to nail your opponent.

3. Assault Through, because that move can sometimes work miracles.

4. Hope your opponent fucks up his timing to give you enough time to recover and block.

[dragontamer]

1. Attempt to 4D so your opponent wiffs or gets hit.

2. Spring Raid and hope it comes out fast enough to nail your opponent.

3. Assault Through, because that move can sometimes work miracles.

4. Hope your opponent fucks up his timing to give you enough time to recover and block.

2D is also decent in this situation.

And by "decent", realize that its a horrible disadvantage to be in this situation...

[LunaKage]

2D is also decent in this situation.

And by "decent", realize that its a horrible disadvantage to be in this situation...

Right, I forgot about that because I was just assuming 2D was the starter(lolNoeljokes).

But seriously yeah. There have been alot of situation where 2D saved my ass after a wiffed 5D, against Ragna for example:

5D > wiff(Ragna jumps over, throws out 5B to punish) > d.2D(Goes over 5B).

This has happened to me so many times, even against good Ragna players, my Ragna friends like to joke that Noel is broken, thanks to this little situation.

[SkyKing]

I don't use 2D enough. So what situations would you consider using 2D over 5D or 4D? I feel that some character match-ups warrant one to be used more than the others.

[RadRed]

Alright, so I'm sitting in an online room that I made and something kind of surprising happens. Another Noel player joins my room. (I don't know about anyone else, but in my experience this hardly every happens)

They were around the same level as me (as if that means anything), so I was naturally intrigued and wanted to see how their Noel compared to mine. I wouldn't necessarily say my Noel is any good, but hey, I might learn something by watching, right?

Anyway, what I did end up learning is that their Noel played nothing like mine. I play Noel kind of.. idiotic, if I'm going to be honest. All out offense; always trying to pressure the opponent, fishing for counter hit 5B/C/D, constantly taking risks, etc. In my head I'm essentially shouting 'HIT CONFIRM', 'GET THEM IN THE CORNER' and subsequently 'KEEP THEM IN THE CORNER'.

This player's Noel style can be summarized as 'hit and run' basically? Very defensive; lots of IADing backwards and Rapid Cancelling after applying pressure. I personally wouldn't say it's all that fun in practice (I have fun playing risky) or entertaining to watch, but at the very least it was efficient. Efficient against my garbage Ragna and the other players in the room, anyway.

I realized that I wouldn't really have much of a chance of winning otherwise, so I switched to Noel and had a go at them. I still lost. Granted, I didn't find that surprising because I absolutely despise same character matches and I try my best to avoid them almost as frequently as I avoid Iron Tager. Suddenly forgetting how to block overheads also contributed heavily to my loss, but that's a whole 'nother thing entirely. :P

Anyway, as naive as it may be for me to ask this.. Could I possibly be playing Noel incorrectly? As I said before, their play style was rather efficient in dispatching opponents, and I can't deny that I've looked back at several matches over the course of playing and thinking that it would have been better to play a bit more defensively.

Questions? Thoughts? Name calling?

Edited December 7, 2010 by RadRed

[SkyKing]

I think that CS1 Noel has been put into the position of defensive/reactive character with pseudo-pressure for frame traps. I realized that playing her CT-style doesn't give the same rewards as before, so that forced me to play her a little more conservatively. IMO, all-in offense isn't the way to go with her (as much as I hate to admit). She doesn't have the normals to extend guaranteed pressure, so she gets reversaled pretty easily. I think playing hit-and-run will accomplish a couple of things:

1. Small damage that can add up.

2. Playstyle reading (see what they do afterwards, how they tech, etc.)

3. Annoy and irritate. Leads to sloppy play and openings for punishes and bigger combos.

It's too different now.

[Sahgren]

Blargh, as much as I'd like to give more hope for a rushdown playstyle than SkyKing just imparted, I can't actually figure out a way how. Ultimately yeah, Noel is just a character that doesn't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose how she wants to play, that's part of the whole being near the bottom of the tier list thing. It's good to push forward with aggression, but there ultimately isn't a whole lot Noel can do right now that doesn't rely on your opponent's bad decisions, nor does she really have a way to force those bad decisions.

You can be aggressive if you want, I'd just advise that you don't try to do anything riskier than a 3c w/ RC meter available or an overhead.

PS: The irony of this is that I have Zidane's interview post ringing in my head, complaining about how people aren't personalizing their playstyles anymore.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Sahgren

[hobbes713]

I do notice that the majority of Noel players online utilize the hit-and-run playstyle. Then again, I don't see many Noel players on XBL in the first place except for Luna.

I play a very rushdown Noel myself and it works alright for me. The main problem about Noel is that her blockstrings have a lot of holes in it so it's important to be able to read and analyze how they deal with your pressure.

The three methods which players generally use to deal with pressure is DP, mash 2A, or keep on blocking. Characters which have a good DP, like Ragna and Litchi, you should generally avoid pressuring for extended periods of time, especially if they IB. If they mash 2A whenever you try to rush back in you can stuff them with 2D after your blockstring. Alternatively, you can catch them with a frame trap in your blockstring. If they keep on blocking then you can rush back in and continue to pressure them.

Also this may sound obvious, but it's important to mix up your pressure. 214A is imo, one of Noel's best moves and is extremely underrated. You can throw 214A from any normal or drive and it leads to pretty good damage. If you find your opponent blocking your 6B every single time, try throwing out a 214A in there instead.

[LunaKage]

I switch between safe/risky, and between Defensive/Offensive depending on the situation, and any combination. But it's always important to read your opponent first, determine what will work best against them, if you notice they prefer blocking, that's your chance to actually use pressure, if you notice they like to throw out an attack if you even move an inch, then that's when you play it safer.

[Sahgren]

Also this may sound obvious, but it's important to mix up your pressure. 214A is imo, one of Noel's best moves and is extremely underrated. You can throw 214A from any normal or drive and it leads to pretty good damage. If you find your opponent blocking your 6B every single time, try throwing out a 214A in there instead.

The thing about 214A is that it's basically 3c in sense of risk vs reward, just being a bit lower on the damage side. The reason why people generally don't throw 214A outside of a combo is because it only hits standing, and a whiff means that any opponent who can realize that they're being handed an opportunity gets a free combo off of you.

On the other hand it's always hilarious to throw out 214A against a Tager or Haku that's trying an IB > Super reversal, since 214A will beat out 720 and Haku's Super-Counter. Be certain to watch your meter, try to predict the super, and 214A if you're going to be trying 214A outside of combos. (Shamelessly stolen from DT's CR Oki video)

[hobbes713]

214A differs enough from 3C due to the fact that it's a bit deceiving. Most moves where a character jumps off the ground to do an attack is considered an overhead.

For example Ragna's guantlet hades, Tao's 6B, Mu's 6B, etc.

214A is unique due to the fact that it looks like an overhead but it is actually a low move.

214A has more of a delay on start-up compared to 3C which happens almost instantly. A lot of people end up instinctively blocking it high on reaction even if they were originally blocking low. 214A also works on players who try to throw you when you rush in to pressure them.

Also if the 214A ends up whiffing mid-screen, Noel will usually end up a bit further away on the other side of the opponent (as they were crouching of course). This can make it a bit harder to punish depending on how far away she's standing.

[Klazzix]

Even though I'm new I believe Optic Barrel is her most underrated/underused move. It causes float on crouchers allowing a 5C/6C follow-up, it's a safer cancel for her drive than a random 214A and a lot of other magic in between combos. It's got a hell lot of potential if you ask me.

Anyway I feel like dropping a bomb here for everyone; how does your Noel apply relentless pressure? (Blockstrings, frame traps, tech traps, mix-ups, resets etc. do bring it.)

I'll start with my not garbage but close to it style of play (yeah I'm new, gimme a break):

Generally,

5Cs 5D/2D 6A 6C (6A 6C) OpticA

-It breaks guard primers, second it moves your opponent where you want them to be (in your face), third it floats on guard break rare occasions, last and least important lolinvuln.

More 5Cs 6D OpticA

-On CH Optic A will carry for at least 3k damage. Low. More lolinvuln.

6B 3C RC 5D etc.

-High. Requires 50 heat just to be safe.

66 2B 5C etc.

-Low, just putting it there for 5C>6B CS2 Gatling.

For resets,

Corner Bloom 6C j.A air throw // Fenrir j.A air throw

-Got this from Luna.. oh yeah :3

Drive Combo: 6C j.D d.6D d.6B d.5C sjc (reset) delay j.4D FC d.6C etc. OpticA

-Cancel from d.5c, FC fishing.

And... that's about it. I always try to end or cancel blockstrings into OpticA or a jump cancel whenever possible for some j.A/B overhead confusion.

[Runis]

Any decent play will just keep holding down back against Noel. Her pressure isn't that scary and even if she throws in an overhead, it's slow as hell. If they ever made Muzzle Filter hit crouching, her pressure would be freakishly scary but as it stands what you hope to accomplish by pressure is more frame traps than it is anything else. Once they start to respect the frame trap (5A delay 5C etc) You start to mix it up with stuff. Like 5A dash 5A and 5A dash 2D cross-up.

[Dorian]

Any decent play will just keep holding down back against Noel. Her pressure isn't that scary and even if she throws in an overhead, it's slow as hell. If they ever made Muzzle Filter hit crouching, her pressure would be freakishly scary but as it stands what you hope to accomplish by pressure is more frame traps than it is anything else. Once they start to respect the frame trap (5A delay 5C etc) You start to mix it up with stuff. Like 5A dash 5A and 5A dash 2D cross-up.

iirc you can jump out of muzzle flitter if you were blocking it prior, meaning the crouching thing wouldn't help to much, but opponents who aren't be actively trying to escape would get caught. I either just crouch or jump out of muzzle flitter.

[MiraclePizza]

I say if you're really going to use Muzzle Flitter as a mixup then use it when your 6B or d.6B is a threat. Like with 3C it's pretty rewarding, but if you fail with it you just die for it. 2D no longer being a second overhead after CT certainly doesn't help Noel's high/low mixup options either, though Muzzle Flitter mixup was never any good anyways.

It is true however that a lot of players won't react to a whiffed Muzzle Flitter properly just because of how rarely it's used outside of combos. I personally do throw it out once in a while to see where it goes, but generally you're probably just killing yourself since most peoples' instinct against Noel's offense is indeed to block low or jump out.

[bmore303]

CS Noel has no mixup game worth mentioning, you can go in with drives and like stated before the opponent can safely block low and only look for 2 high attacks and a grab. This is one of her biggest reasons for being low tier. You can IAD 2D mixup or toss in as many jump cancels, throw cancels as you want, but chances are your opponent can read it all. For a rushdown character CS Noel has a huge disadvantage. Not to mention a single IB could spell disaster for her. I prefer to bait the opponent into offense and CH with a superior defense (offline that is) .

[dragontamer]

CS Noel has no mixup game worth mentioning, you can go in with drives and like stated before the opponent can safely block low and only look for 2 high attacks and a grab. This is one of her biggest reasons for being low tier. You can IAD 2D mixup or toss in as many jump cancels, throw cancels as you want, but chances are your opponent can read it all. For a rushdown character CS Noel has a huge disadvantage. Not to mention a single IB could spell disaster for her. I prefer to bait the opponent into offense and CH with a superior defense (offline that is) .

I very much agree. Except on the "2 high attacks", because Chain Revolver is not pressure at all. Sure, d.6B is a nice overhead, but your only low during Chain Revolver is lol d.6D which is as slow as Makoto's 2C but only does ~3k. Typically, your opponent really is only looking out for 6B. Unless you're talking about the 66 2D crossup on crouching opponents... which is essentially a pseudo-overhead...

Anyway, CS Noel is not a rushdown character. But you need to know how to rush your opponent down. Eventually, you'll get a chance to push the offensive and you need to make as much use of it as possible. That means phishing for Throw Rejects in the corner, 66 2D pseudo-overheads, hitconfirming 5A -> 6A, hitconfirming 2B -> 6A, and so forth.

[bmore303]

Lol yeah I failed at sentence structure when i called her drive pressure. The most annoying thing I've found is that forcing throw reject misses with Noel can be a pain. Her grab range blows and at best we can kara it for now. Those 2 hit confirms are definitely important, granted you won't gain much damage, but you can setup for a reset off of the 6A followups quite easily.

[LunaKage]

I actually have a question myself:

I fought Axis offline at my place not too long ago, he plays Tager. I tried 5A > 2D(cross-up) on him about 3 times, everytime it was blocked. I'm wondering, does that particular way of crossing up work on Tager? Or is Axis just that gdlk that he can block the cross up on reaction? Also just for clarification, I did land on the other side of him every time. Another point of interest is that I've had a couple of Noels try the cross up on me, and I auto blocked it, without having to switch my blocking for the cross up. So... what the eff?

[Sahgren]

I remember Mizzet commenting somewhere that you have to wait till the last possible moment of hit/blockstun (so that they're out of hit/blockstun at around the time you're going over their head) for the cross up to reset, it's possible that the "blockstun auto-block" thing may be kicking in if you 2D too early. You can try delaying the 2D a little if you aren't already doing so.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Sahgren

[LunaKage]

I remember Mizzet commenting somewhere that you have to wait till the last possible moment of hit/blockstun (so that they're out of hit/blockstun at around the time you're going over their head) for the cross up to reset, it's possible that the "blockstun auto-block" thing may be kicking in if you 2D too early. You can try delaying the 2D a little if you aren't already doing so.

Sounds good to me.

[RadRed]

I prefer to bait the opponent into offense and CH with a superior defense (offline that is).

You see, I often resort to starting on offense and trying to gain the upper hand as soon as possible 'cause I recognize my weaknesses as a player and I reckon I'm more likely to succeed playing very offensively and pressuring the opponent as opposed to defensively.

Not to say that I'm entirely ignoring that aspect, of course. It's just that I'm still working on it and my offensive game is a lot more concrete.

[MiraclePizza]

5A 2D should never be airtight even with crouching barrier block so it definitely isn't the autoblock after the 5A. I believe what might be happening is that you can still cross them up after the first active frame of 2D (on crouchers) so your first hit might not have crossed them up when it made contact but Noel ended up switching sides with them anyways. If that happens, then he didn't need to switch blocking direction and he'll also autoblock the 2nd hit of 2D after the crossup.

This is just a theory. I think this is probably what's happening because of how Tager's taller hitbox makes it so that the 2D comes in contact with him sooner than it does with most other characters so your crossup timing gets barely thrown off to the point where you cross them up after the first hit is blocked normally. I don't know what to say about it not working on Noel though, but that could've just been a distance thing (for example, he barrier blocked whatever you threw out before your 2D for extra pushback or something).

I haven't actually tested this either.

Edited December 8, 2010 by MiraclePizza

[Sahgren]

I haven't been able to get the training mode dummy to autoblock off of my theory, so I guess it's going to Miracle's theory. And please stop dashing my hopes of an airtight way into drive

[LunaKage]

I haven't been able to get the training mode dummy to autoblock off of my theory, so I guess it's going to Miracle's theory. And please stop dashing my hopes of an airtight way into drive

There is no such thing as "Air tight" when playing Noel. Everything is risk/reward.