[CS2] Mu-12 vs Hazama

[Aginor]

Discuss the match up here.

The Good:

- 236a helps to nullify Hazama's chains

- DP beats his mixup options. Or you can just block low since his stance overhead doesn't do much damage.

The Bad:

- Hazama's chains got faster so Mu has to make sure she doesn't get CH'd by it when using 236a.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Aginor

[OhsuAkira]

Anyone else finding this matchup to be a nightmare? Habaya is helping me out a lot, but I can't seem to maintain momentum for long.

[Aginor]

I actually find this match a lot easier than what it used to be in cs1. You really have to bait out jayoku houtenjins (serpent's rapture?). I felt the key to the match up is zoning. If you can set up steins then that puts haz in a bad position. I feel with habaya and steins, it wasn't too bad. I also felt like other match ups except more important against haz is if you get him in the corner, you really want to contain him there and don't let him get out. Moves like 5c and j.c will help you do that. Just bear in mind at those ranges, be careful of haz 3c.

[Vecayse]

I find this match up a lot easier than CS1 as well. If you can stay around the mid screen area zoning him (236a is sooo good in this match up) he can't do that much. As mentioned before his chains have gotten faster, but it is definetly a lot easier to zone him IMO even if he gets in, he can't do much damage mid screen.

[OhsuAkira]

I have a tendency to play much more aggressively than I should with Mu; tried stepping back ajd focusing on zoning a lot more and it really helped, thanks.

[bakahyl]

The hazama's that i have played seemed to have lot's of problems against Mu's corner pressure, so i try to play mu slightly more aggressive in CS2 than in CS1. But jumping alot got me killed some times, because i think Mu has a weak air to ground approach and hazama has a few fairly decent anti-airs.

[Big Red Tie]

his midscreen damage got nerfed without jayoku meter and in exchange he got improved chains that you can inhibit with steins, dp, and pokes

i find i no longer have to rush hazama to contain him, as it's easier and safer to zone and block methodically. also, using tension on 632146D to punish since everyone's chain happy (i guess it requires prediction now that they're faster though)

[C0R]

As a note, the chains travel faster, but have longer startup, effectively meaning that they're the same speed as cs1.

[FlyingVe]

If hazama is on the ground watch out for his snake super (632146D?) it will beat out laying more than one stein, 236A, 632146D, 236D, and 214D on reaction and has a habit of catching you remarkably high off the ground too.

[Big Red Tie]

As a note, the chains travel faster, but have longer startup, effectively meaning that they're the same speed as cs1.

weird, they seem faster

[Filia]

Once Hazama gets in, when is it really a good time to strike back?

Like, what moves does he have that's -advantage on block or prime targets to IB? I seem to have much difficulty getting him off once he gets in.

[Airk]

He kinda...doesn't have any. It's why he's such a pain in the ass to get away from. His 6A "Elbow" overhead leaves him at -5, but that's not really punishable except on IB, though you could jump out or something. 3C is -6, but he's never NOT going to cancel that into stance. Stance overhead leaves him at +2 minium, stance low is -1 if he doesn't hold the stance, so that's an "above average" chance to at least try to get momentum back.

I don't know if there are any good places to try to break out of his blockstrings, because Hazama kinda doesn't really HAVE much in the way of blockstrings. x.x

I hate Hazama. At least when i get blown up by Makoto or something, I feel like they had to work at it. Hazama just feels like "Oh, well, sorry, but everything I do leaves me at advantage."

[C0R]

Zeh backdash is the main tool to escaping Hazama's pressure. After 5c/2c/2b you can backdash out with good results. You should also DP through Ressenga if you know it's coming.

[Filia]

A 6A CH combo is also possible if you seriously mindread a ressenga coming.

Though I'm not sure that if he CHs you if he can take that into 3C -> Jayoku or just Jayoku. That'd probably not make it not worth the risk.

[BloodyRootBeers]

and if you guess wrong and he gets a CH Zainega... ouch.

[pochp]

So I got to play Zidane a bit this weekend at ECT, we played about 20 or so casuals I think, I won a few rounds but that's it. I thought I knew the matchup a bit but woah, not as much as I thought. It's kind of a risk/reward thing though, because he was extremely effective with his chains and knockdows, but the stuff he got out of it made some of Mu's options horrible in comparison. He's extremely hard to corner, where Mu gets good damage and oki, so it really feels like an uphill battle. I know some of you might go "oh yeah it's so obvious" but eh, I'm just giving a summary of what I thought would be good to know.

Doing stuff in the air is very risky, if he lands a CH chain, he's getting a 4.5k 80 heat (iirc) meterless combo and knockdown. Same for a stance-low (not necessary CH), or a 3C CH, all of these meterless, so if he needs, he can add a super or two (or three?) to finish you off. So IMO trying the laser fortress is not worth the risk/reward at all. I will give myself the option select of having driven 10hrs, without enough sleep and it being already kinda late for me for my bad mixup blocking reactions, but overall I was aware of what was going on, trying different tactics, learning the matchup as we played.

The most effective way of playing I could come up with was to try to bait his way in by jumping and delaying my fall with steins/j.236A (one at a time obv). I talked to him a bit after, he says that hazama's chains screw too much with Mu's stein game to make it effective so you really have to somehow bait his approach and once you start applying pressure, don't stop, because hazama has a hard time getting out.

I can't say how good backdash is in this matchup because after he caught me a few times doing it with his chains I stopped doing it completely. Ground 236A should only be used if you're cancelling something into it, at neutral it's more or less a free approach or punish depending on where he is. Air 236A to delay your fall is kinda useful, just don't get predictable. Same goes for j.236D except it's a lot slower so make absolutely sure you're safe when you're doing it, but it can allow you to get in on him, so it's good to use it every now and then. SoD is just bad, the recovery gives him a free punish if you whiff so it's just not worth the risk/reward. I tried using 6C to punish jump-back chains, but it just doesn't hit high enough, and 214D I don't really recommend using outside of setups, it comes out only 1F faster than 236D so it's just inferior at neutral due to his mobility.

So really, I think the most important thing is to not get overconfident with 236A and keeping in mind that even placing 1 stein at a time is risky, so you always have to be 100% aware of his options with chains. Also, his AA 5A is pretty effective so don't jump in like a retard, it also hits you out of crossup attempts if you aren't covered by lasers, ground approach seems like the way to go, unless you yomi a chain and IAD j.B that shit.

If anyone disagrees or has better ideas, feel free to correct me, I feel like I'm still missing something in this matchup. And remember, just because it worked on your local hazama doesn't mean it'll work on the top ones.

[stinkymonz]

and 214D I don't really recommend using outside of setups, it comes out only 1F faster than 236D so it's just inferior at neutral due to his mobility.

Unless frame data is mistaken, 214D is a full 10F faster than 236D. But yeah, the point still stands that 236D > 214D most of the time in this matchup. Once you get a better feel for the player's own preference of movement options 214D is a much better and more immediate threat, in my experience.

And I agree, you won't want to laser fortress against Hazama. The way I play it is to play the same neutral game we'd (theoretically) play against Tao, set a stein predict/read his angle, get out of the way, possibly CHing/airthrowing and then setting another stein, read his angle, rinse repeat. Till he runs out of chain meter or either one of you gets hit/block pressure. Yeah 236A is definitely free chain for him at neutral, unless you're sufficiently covered by lasers or you're far away. 236A tends to nail you to one spot, but blocking a chain still isn't necessarily an in for him.

It might just be my own personal Hazama experience (played like 4 fairly competent Hazamas, all online heh).

Also just wondering what's the air CH chain combo that's meterless 4.5k and 80 heat? I don't play Hazama, but I think to get that kind of damage he'd have to catch you pretty low in the air.

[pochp]

Unless frame data is mistaken, 214D is a full 10F faster than 236D. But yeah, the point still stands that 236D > 214D most of the time in this matchup. Once you get a better feel for the player's own preference of movement options 214D is a much better and more immediate threat, in my experience.

Also just wondering what's the air CH chain combo that's meterless 4.5k and 80 heat? I don't play Hazama, but I think to get that kind of damage he'd have to catch you pretty low in the air.

236D is guaranteed to come out on frame 37, j.236D is guaranteed on 38, 214D is 36F startup. It's usually a favorable trade when it happens.

Yeah it's from sort of low, don't know the exact notation and maybe my memory isn't accurate, but it was chain CH, knockdown, 5C otg, 6C loops, D loop into DP D, j.6D otg, 6C loop?, ender. You get caught when you try to do stuff like jump cancel a ground stein and immediately place a stein in the air, so that is really a bad idea.

[cookiehours]

Started playing Mu on a more competitive level and goddamn this matchup is a pain in the ass. It always feels as if I have to chase Hazama down to pin him in the corner.

[Airk]

Started playing Mu on a more competitive level and goddamn this matchup is a pain in the ass. It always feels as if I have to chase Hazama down to pin him in the corner.

Welcome to "playing against Hazama as anyone except Lambda" :P (Lambda vs Hazama is best defined as "F-K! F-K! Go away!") Pretty much the entire cast needs to chase the bastard and try to nail his feet to the floor.

Hazama: His matches are a pain in the ass.

[cookiehours]

Welcome to "playing against Hazama as anyone except Lambda" :P (Lambda vs Hazama is best defined as "F-K! F-K! Go away!") Pretty much the entire cast needs to chase the bastard and try to nail his feet to the floor.

Hazama: His matches are a pain in the ass.

It's the same issue when I use Lambda. It always feels as if I have to chase him. .__.;

Teh zoning is strong with teh king of trolls.

[Remius]

If you let hazama lock you down with chains, you're just going to have a really, really hard time. Try to feel him out and stop him from doing it, which is pretty hard to do since his chains are faster than most of your moves.

AAing him is difficult too, because by the time you reach him he's on the other side of the screen attacking you again, and if you try and catch him out the air, you'll probably, at best, trade with a chain. and speaking of chains, it's hard to ever get a laser off because of how easy it is for him to make you block. and even when you throw out a 236D, it's pretty easy for him to still throw chains and probably not get hit with it. And everything gets worse when he has meter.

I guess you just have to gain momentum and keep it rolling throughout the battle. Make him guess your gameplan, set your steins carefully and make sure you put them to decent use.

And by god, if he gets predictable with 3C/DP fishing, 6C CH his ass and put him in the corner.

[C0R]

Fly around like superman

hit c normals

confirm into big damage

watch him crumple on defense

win with cs2 mu

zzz