A call to arms for the hardcore BB and GG players

[tataki]

We are having a heated discussion over at SRK which should concern you too.

Basically the more veteran members of the community are complaining about the website taking a turn towards the casual side.

Catering more to casuals who like to watch more then play.

We want to shift the focus back to the hardcore players who strive to improve their game.

The way I see it, being hardcore also means being open minded to try more games.

Being hardcore also means transferring your knowledge from game to game.

Being hardcore also means deciding to play a game based on how good it is and how you like its and not diss on it for its character designs and other stupid reasons.

Basically what I'm saying is that while every one of us loves a different game, we are all the same.

We are all hardcore players with the same mindset and the same interests.

So as I see it, you should be a part of the movement we are starting.

Our 1st goal is a modest but important one- To change the front page of SRK (which gets huge publicity) to have less casual content and more hardcore content.

This includes non-Capcom fighting games of course!

This is where you guys come in. You care about GG and BB? Help us by creating "hardcore" content for those games, and send them to be on the front page.

A tutorial vid

A match analysis

Practical Combos

General tactics

Everything goes and it will get exposure!

I don't want to be hearing J1n and friends being somewhat bitter in the next midnight carnival podcast about how no one plays GG. I want to see you guys spend that energy to turn the podcast into another tool to spread the love!

We got decent emulators now. Sometimes their online works ok. People can play GG with their RL friends if they want to!

COME ON!

I wrote this long post because I play and love both BB and GG and I really care, and a lot more players do to.

I know that some people here are also members of other communities like MB AH Tekken etc. If you could talk about it to key members of other communities it would be great.

Don't wait for the wheel of fate to turn. Help us start spinning!

Edited August 4, 2011 by tataki

[shtkn]

i commend your goals... it really is harder than you think. i've been trying to keep the dustloop front page free of any silly bs, though as a result... we don't have much to post. i've been talking to people i know irl about making some content and hopefully that will come to fruition, but we'll see...

[sdmdx]

Hmmm I'll try to come out with stuff soon and I'll get my friends to do some shit. You're right....community is getting lazy, me being one of them. When I get home on Wednesday I'll see what I can do

[ZeroRaider]

I'll be willing to help in help in anyway for DL to have more to offer and help the community here. Even though we all still bicker and argue on here at time, we all still have support for our games and I'm hoping to help the overall condition of the Hardcare for the Hardcore if I can.

[Star-Demon]

I strive to improve my game - but I don't eat sleep or drink it. I definitely don't have the money or time as a grownup to sink into it.

I've really come into the genre within the last year, and like any very competitive venue - there will be people who go either way. To be honest I don't know where I would stand, because I honestly do not feel that, like some pro players feel, that mastering a game should be roughly equal to the time I'm spending on my college degree.

I would not want to play a game like that, and to be honest, it's a waste of a gamer like me to choke me out of the action - you know how I end up having to treat a game like that? Like this.

I really enjoy the genre in the two years I've come to it - it's competitive, technical, and I enjoy playing and making content related to it, as well as contributing to the community if I can, but when it's not fun - you bet I stop. If that makes me casual, then I guess I'm a casual.

Anyways - The content you mention for SRK would be casual content. Casuals need tutorials and stuff - Hardcore players figure it out and study and play the shit out of it.

To be honest I think the objective is just to add BETTER content to SRK.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Star-Demon

[Kuuhaku]

While I certainly would like Blazblue to get more exposure, most of the stuff you're asking for is already on Dustloop.

For example- tutorials, we already have a project in the works (though idk when that'll be done) and actually I think most characters are already done aside from video recording. We already have extensive system info and most character boards have a lot of information on how to play their respective character/match ups as well.

So it's not that we don't already have what you're asking for or that the community is lazy. From my understanding... the real question is how to set this up so people on SRK would be interested in it too.

Though, if I had to throw something out that would catch people's attention immediately- the easiest thing to do at the moment would be to post the match vids of the EVO finals on SRK or even make a highlight re-cap (though I think EVO releases their own DVD of the finals so I'm not even sure if this is possible). Once people are interested in the game and aren't like- "animu fighter zzz", THEN they'll be more interested in playing it. At least... that's my take on things.

[ZeroRaider]

Yes I also believe getting out the message for people to get some interest is very key. Though that may be difficult at its still recent to the major scene. We also have to show that is worth learning and getting into, that this is a FG community worth experiencing and not to be brushed off.

[McArthur]

hi, is it ok if we from BBPH share our articles to Dustloop as well? usually we post our articles here : www.iairdash.com

(it contains various categories like game news, matchvids, and gameplay articles, though still fairly new)

[LunaKage]

I've sent SRK many of my CVs in the past but none of them made it to the front page, so what should I do? lol

[Osuna]

I'm skeptical over the idea that hardcore BB/GG content would be meaningful on the SRK front page, since hardcore players generally already know what games are out and have already drawn the line on what games they do and don't play and casual players on SRK seem to like the term "anime fighter" which aside from being insulting and making no sense, discourages casual srkers from trying other fighters. Plus a lot of people regardless of skill level Do judge games on character design.

There was a video a while back that made a pie chart of SBO quals for all of the games, and guess what game had the most balanced roster representation? Arcana Heart, which isn't even In the SRK fighting game section.

But I suppose it couldn't hurt us much and could stir up Some interest. I do get the feeling if we want to stir up competitive interest it would have to be done in a beginner friendly way rather than through hardcore content because I really don't think any hardcore competitor is unaware that BB exists.

[McArthur]

i just thought of this, maybe its a good idea to somewhat also post dustloop front page articles with CV's matchvids from various scenes no matter how minor or major.

also another opinion i just thought of, if i am from another game and i saw dustloop's front page, which is mostly mod interviews (which is of course good for us), i wouldn't bother to check the articles. Compared to let's say visiting SRK or eventhubs and seeing actual gameplay articles or helpful ComboVids/tutorial vids, one would check it out.

[xlolxlolx]

I'm skeptical over the idea that hardcore BB/GG content would be meaningful on the SRK front page, since hardcore players generally already know what games are out and have already drawn the line on what games they do and don't play and casual players on SRK seem to like the term "anime fighter" which aside from being insulting and making no sense, discourages casual srkers from trying other fighters. Plus a lot of people regardless of skill level Do judge games on character design.

There was a video a while back that made a pie chart of SBO quals for all of the games, and guess what game had the most balanced roster representation? Arcana Heart, which isn't even In the SRK fighting game section.

But I suppose it couldn't hurt us much and could stir up Some interest. I do get the feeling if we want to stir up competitive interest it would have to be done in a beginner friendly way rather than through hardcore content because I really don't think any hardcore competitor is unaware that BB exists.

^this, seriously.

dont you remember seeing all the hate when ougon musou kyoku was announced? even though a good amount of top ae players that were top gg players, theres only like a few that still play it from time to time. this shouldve been done back in reload days but i think its way too late now since ac has been dropping into st status

[TheGreatReptar]

I've sent SRK many of my CVs in the past but none of them made it to the front page, so what should I do? lol

That's an easy one. Just kill Keits =O

[ZeroRaider]

Sooo keywords, beginner, friendly, exposure?

[tataki]

I'm skeptical over the idea that hardcore BB/GG content would be meaningful on the SRK front page, since hardcore players generally already know what games are out and have already drawn the line on what games they do and don't play and casual players on SRK seem to like the term "anime fighter" which aside from being insulting and making no sense, discourages casual srkers from trying other fighters. Plus a lot of people regardless of skill level Do judge games on character design.

There was a video a while back that made a pie chart of SBO quals for all of the games, and guess what game had the most balanced roster representation? Arcana Heart, which isn't even In the SRK fighting game section.

But I suppose it couldn't hurt us much and could stir up Some interest. I do get the feeling if we want to stir up competitive interest it would have to be done in a beginner friendly way rather than through hardcore content because I really don't think any hardcore competitor is unaware that BB exists.

Think of it this way-

How many people know BB is an anime fighter with some lolis? Everyone

How many people really understand high level BB play? Maybe 0.1% of the above

Allow people to have a small taste of what it is in high level. Maybe some of them will be interested.

That's why you should go "hardcore" but with the right approach.

I've sent SRK many of my CVs in the past but none of them made it to the front page, so what should I do? lol

http://shoryuken.com/2011/08/02/huge-marvel-vs-capcom-3-video-roundup/

See how this page looks like?

Basically take all the new content from different people and send it all organized together as a "BB community weekly update" of sort.

Edited August 5, 2011 by tataki

[Airk]

On the second page of the thread you linked, Tataki, there are links to a couple of annotated videos, where someone has taken the time to put annotations in to explain WTF is going on and why people are doing what they are doing/why what is happening is happening. I feel like this could be a pretty seriously useful concept, and one that I think fills a niche that nothing else really does.

Fundamentally, it's been said a lot of times that most people who watch videos of games don't really know what they're supposed to be looking for, or what to think when they see it. Just just kinda kick back and go "Oooh, combos and flashing lights! I coulda done that DP!" ; And similarly, while a lot of the time commentators on tournament matches DO know, and sometimes even try to talk about it, they just don't have TIME while the match is going on, so the commentary comes out like either "Did you see what he did there? He baited with OHHH MY GODDDD!" as something else cool happens, or the commentator is still talking about something that happened 15 seconds ago and misses the chance to talk about what's going on NOW. Theoretically, annotated videos get around both of these issues. They're almost the fighting game equivalent of the post-game wrap up for football where there's a guy "drawing" on the screen and explaining plays while making liberal use of pause and instant replay.

I think all this is DOUBLY true for a game like BB where things seem to happen so fast and many people look at it and think "Lol, they're just jumping around like spazzes and trying to land a combo!"

I actually took a stab at doing something like this last night when I first saw this post, and it took me like 20 minutes just to do an annotation style "writeup" on a single, two round match that I picked more or less at random, and I'm no expert, so I probably missed a bunch of stuff. So.. I guess what I'm saying is... do people think this sort of thing would be valuable for both the "armchair quarterback" sort who watches a lot of matches but doesn't necessarily think about them, or for slightly more experienced players? Or for anyone? I guess it's too much to ask to expect people who already "think" they don't like the game because it's an "anime fighter" to watch something like this and go "wow, that's complex" but maybe making this sort of thing would help the occasional person who say, saw some BB at EVO and was like "WTF is going on"?

And if people think it would be helpful, how and who might go about making this sort of thing happen? I can volunteer my own time to some extent, but I'm not sure I'd be a good pick.

[Star-Demon]

That's a really good idea. I should try it on some of the good matches I sometimes commentate on. A lot of the time I'm too caught up in one thing or another to speak about something subtle I'm seeing in favor of calling the action.

Example: In this one, UnholyGarrett totally backdash potager bustering and abusing backdash invincibility. I was calling the jumping around on hakumen's part unsafe - but no one would have caught it.

I should try this for sure.

[CakeWasBannedd]

if people want to get into competitive/hardcore BB or any other fighting game they will. all the information is there, but the fact is most people consider it a game like any other. something to play in your spare time, not something to put time and effort into improving at.

speaking from experience, there is no way to convert a casual player to a hardcore player unless they want to play seriously. it just doesn't work, and trying to force them into it will most likely make them not ever want to play the game.

[Mr. Kimura]

I remember that one article we had on the front page by 4r5 that explained frame data for Guilty Gear, I'd like to see something like that for BlazBlue as well, exlpaining hitstun, blockstun, how you know you can hit buttons using frame data, etc. I thought that article was a good start and I'd like to see more of that stuff on here. Maybe even in video format with the write up?

Like I had a question in the Tsubaki forums as to why if Ragna does 5C>Deadspike in a string, why can't I hit him out of it without being counterhit? It lead to an interesting discussion and made me realize that I can't read frame data. I'd like to see vids and articles covering the core mechanics of things like that.

I'm skeptical over the idea that hardcore BB/GG content would be meaningful on the SRK front page, since hardcore players generally already know what games are out and have already drawn the line on what games they do and don't play and casual players on SRK seem to like the term "anime fighter" which aside from being insulting and making no sense, discourages casual srkers from trying other fighters. Plus a lot of people regardless of skill level Do judge games on character design.

There was a video a while back that made a pie chart of SBO quals for all of the games, and guess what game had the most balanced roster representation? Arcana Heart, which isn't even In the SRK fighting game section.

But I suppose it couldn't hurt us much and could stir up Some interest. I do get the feeling if we want to stir up competitive interest it would have to be done in a beginner friendly way rather than through hardcore content because I really don't think any hardcore competitor is unaware that BB exists.

I've noticed this as a problem on SRK as well as my scene. I think we could at least try, but attempt to get the front page of Dustloop pulling in informative stuff for hardcore intermediate players like us as top priority.

Besides me not having a scene to grow with, I'm pretty lost as to where to go in my general direction of playing, and I'm sure a lot of us are the same way. Honestly I find tutorial vids on why things work and how they work, and why they're useful rather interesting.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mr. Kimura

[Airk]

if people want to get into competitive/hardcore BB or any other fighting game they will. all the information is there, but the fact is most people consider it a game like any other. something to play in your spare time, not something to put time and effort into improving at.

speaking from experience, there is no way to convert a casual player to a hardcore player unless they want to play seriously. it just doesn't work, and trying to force them into it will most likely make them not ever want to play the game.

This is all beside the point though. Obviously we can't "force" people to want to play seriously. You might've noticed, but the Internet doesn't serve very well for "forcing" people to do things.

What we CAN do is:

#1) Produce stuff that is valuable for people who are already playing competitively or for people who WANT to.

#2) Produce stuff that is interesting to people who play competitively AND people who don't

#3) Produce stuff that SHOWS why it's cool and fun to play competitively and help people realize what's going on.

I think a lot of people are interested in playing MORE competitively than they are, but don't really know how, or how to find the resources. Heck, if you don't know what frame data is, because this is your first fighting game, you don't even know to look for it. I think you are correct that not many people are interested in putting in tons of internet legwork to get better. I think a significantly greater number of people are interested in getting better if the information on how to do so is presented to them in an entertaining and easy to access format.

[ZeroRaider]

I believe we're on to something mentlegen?

[Mightfo]

speaking from experience, there is no way to convert a casual player to a hardcore player unless they want to play seriously. it just doesn't work, and trying to force them into it will most likely make them not ever want to play the game.

While this is definitely true for some players, there are many people who do not play fighters competitively because they do not appreciate it beyond a superficial level. If they suddenly see something in "hardcore" playing, then they may want to change how they approach a fighter/fighters. Of course you can't force them, but there are certainly ways to generate interest.

[Hateraid Red]

I can always forward az ranbat videos if they'd help pull interest as well as tutorials/ match analysis but I'm not sure what dl wants to be displayed in general.

We could use a better front page though as far as flash goes. Most people would skip this site due to how unappealing (visually) it can be to your typical ADD teen. Srk has a good presentation that pops while still conserving the hardcore, meat and potatoes that is the forums. Gotta make a good first impression basically for when new gamers do take in interest in our efforts to get exposure.

Cliff notes:

In my opinion this website is an amazing resource. We just need the home page to be eye catching for when we do draw in new gamers.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hateraid Red

[zeth07]

In regards to exposure, I've tried in the past to get iPlayWinner to start showing more BlazBlue related content since unlike SRK (which is mainly SF/MvC) iPlayWinner supposedly covers ALL fighting games. Originally I sent an email asking how they handled front page content, if anyone covered BB for the site, and questioned why BB didn't get much attention when other games would get front page entries for even the simplest video. Needless to say, I got no reply, and following that was around the time they did their first podcast and pretty much said "lolBB".

Later I tried again by simply sending an email for their front page thing when one of Tetsu's Ragna Combo Videos came out and was on Jourdal's Youtube page. Surprisingly they actually put that on the front page. Unfortunately I don't think they've posted anything like that since and I personally haven't bothered to continue trying to send them BB related content.

As for SRK, I don't personally go there, but I'm gonna assume they have the same mindset.

---

In my personal opinion, Dustloop doesn't really seem like a "community". There might be some groups from local scenes that are all cool with each other, but as a whole DL just seems really divided and it's to be expected due to the circumstances of GG and BB.

The other problem is that even some of the tournament players don't "seem" to care much about BB and even go as far as hating on it themselves. It doesn't exactly give off a good impression for the "community" or game if the competitive players are doing that, but it can't be helped.

It also seems like some of the mods don't care enough to help out or don't take it serious enough to actually contribute content or discussions to keep things progressing. Or maybe they just don't have the time. As a casual player, this looks bad in my eyes when other members are willing to put effort into something while the players who are supposedly the competitive players aren't really doing much of anything.

Also, I do think the front page of Dustloop needs some kind of re-evaluation or something, because I've heard of plenty people who don't have that as their bookmark/favorite and instead they just link directly to the forums. Before we worry about getting content on the front page of SRK where the majority there probably won't care, I think we should worry about the front page of Dustloop itself when the players who come here will be more likely to care about the content that gets posted.

I do think Dustloop has most of the information that players need in regards to starting out and playing, I just don't think it provides it in a proper way to the masses or in a way that would get other players to want to play the game. I also think some areas are lacking in-depth discussions (like match-ups) that would apply towards the more "hardcore" players who actually want to take the game seriously. But I guess that's more up to the serious players themselves to step up and do something about.

That's my two cents from a casual player's perspective.

[SolxBaiken]

-wall of TRUTH-

This +1

No offense but we don't need to concern ourselves with Shoryuken or any other community or site until we get some of our own stuff together. Doing alot of the stuff the original poster and several others have brought up sound great, but most certainly should not be considered for use on another community's site. We should first be doing that stuff here before promoting it out to other venues.

And while are community may seem a bit divided I am confused at the Guilty Gear side of things, I see several people push and struggle so hard to do cool events and things for it (like the Midnight Carnival podcast and the side tourney organized at Evo) yet I see little pushes here on the forums. The GG requires some reorganization if we truly don't want to count it off as a "dead" game.

Which also draws my attention to the Vampire Savior's section, allegedly it was placed on here because no other site has a dedicated hub for it and the community is supposedly still alive, however looking through it I don't feel that way, I don't feel that way at all. It seldom sees discussions and updates, the threads are a bit of a mess, and it just feels like it was done because it could. I'm an occasional VS player and I would be inclined to play more if it didn't seem like such a hassle when looking through the section.

For both modern games being covered and more aged titles, we need to come together as a community on all fronts and make anyone who even takes the time to look at the site feel like they are welcome and that they can hop into ANY of these games.

Also I too am guilty of almost NEVER looking at the actual front page of the site, it's not too informative and is rarely helpful so I direct myself immediately to the forums, this is something that definitely needs to change.