[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[logichole]

Well, there's bad news and there's good news with CSX.

Here are my findings over the course of a couple of sporadic hours of play with CSX, in approximately the order I noticed them:

Charging felt much slower on the ground, but faster in the air. It's not as slow as CS1, but mashing on 5D in short bursts all the time for free charge is a bad idea. 5D maxes out after obtaining one charge, 2D after 3 charges. Recovery felt slower. You'd want a hard knockdown to use these. You have to be deliberate and carefully choose your moments to charge. Tapping 5D gains CS2-style gains almost nothing and leaves you vulnerable. I didn't test charge gain via charge-cancelling.

On the other hand, j.D charges very quickly now. You can also cancel into it from aerial attacks, as in CS1. Ending a combo in the air nets you a few charges before you hit the ground.

5B is slower. This really hurts. Slightly slower start-up (just enough that at first I was blue-beating CH 22A > 5B, which still actually combos). Definitely increased recovery. I was failing all of my instinctive 5B (blocked) > dash pressure. I'm pretty sure it's no longer + on block.

CS2 DP Whiffs are very nerfed. The opponent air-recovers too high to connect a 623C > j.214A(w) > 2C. I didn't think to try the other 623/j.214 variants, sorry. 623C > j.214A(w) > (land) > hj > j.CC connects reliably, though it does less damage and gives poorer positioning than CS2 DP Dive Whiffs. It's not too hard to connect the hj.CC once you get the timing down. You can nab a few charges on the way down while your opponent is knocked away by a j.214C. c0r stated offhand that connecting 623C > j.214A(w) > dash 2C was now a 2-frame link rather than a 7-frame, but I have no idea where he pulled those numbers from. It might work situationally still.

5C is significantly buffed. It's much much faster - feels about the same as the nerfed 5B. The hitbox feels bigger vertically - it no longer whiffs OTG. This should make pickups in the corner simpler than CS2-style 5C(w)C. Pretty sure dashing 5C will also pick up Jin now.

IAD combos still work. You'll want to use IAD j.CC > 5C rather than IAD j.CC > 5B for better positioning and damage now. That's an easy switch. (You could do this in CS2 already on FC 6C starter. It's easier now.).

6A now fatal counters. This might be useful - it still forces crouch on so the opponent remains in hitstun for quite a while.

Mugen is very buffed! It lasts much longer for a given amount of charge. Spending 50 heat and 1 charge nets 2-3 D-specials easily. You can also Mugen in the air now, which I think has a lot of potential. It's also flashy as hell. I think CSX Tsubaki will be using many more mugen combos for damage. I did not explore this option nearly enough.

CH 22D now wall bounces similar to CS1 22D. Non-CH 22D behaves the same as in CS2.

623C > j.236A(w) > j.214D works great in the corner and easily leads to big damage. This should get a lot of use in CSX against cornered opponents.

Things I didn't test but wish I had: Throw (RC), 6C, 3C, mugen setups, charge cancelling changes - if any.

Overall I feel these changes are negative. Slower charging, slower 5B, and nerfed DP Dive Whiffs really hurt Tsubaki's CS2 toolkit. Compensation will have to come from air charging, more uses for 5C, and mugen changes which increase duration and allow aerial initiation. FC 6A may be useful or may not be.

I don't think this is an insurmountable barrier but we'll have to come up with some new strategies to be successful with Tsubaki. The immediately obvious thing to do is DP > Dive Whiff > hj.CC > j.236A j.214C > j.D for a couple of charges. There are probably better things which I haven't tried yet.

What I don't understand is why ASW felt like this was necessary - Tsubaki felt quite balanced to me in CS2. I don't like being forced to spend both charge and meter to do decent damage, especially when charges are riskier to obtain. Hopefully when the game comes out on console we'll get more good news as players better feel out new possibilities.

Edited November 17, 2011 by logichole

[logichole]

I didn't know it frame trapped at all! Nice find. I knew about the TK cancel but I didn't know it could be that effective.

Edit: Yea, it's an extremely tight blockstring. I can't press 5A/DP, even from an IB. I can only see it granting you the benefit of a crossup and additonal pressure.

Are you thinking about 236D? 6C (blocked) > 2147D is definitely a frametrap, IB or no IB. You can DP out of it but an attempted jab will always be counter-hit. I will test some more tonight to make sure.

[Velvien]

5B is slower. This really hurts. Slightly slower start-up (just enough that at first I was blue-beating CH 22A > 5B, which still actually combos). Definitely increased recovery. I was failing all of my instinctive 5B (blocked) > dash pressure. I'm pretty sure it's no longer + on block.

[BatousaiJ]

Humm, not much I haven't noticed already but still, nice to get some confirmation on some things.

Nice work, logic.

From what I've seen from the videos, I was thinking 5B was neutral +0 or +1/2 on block but I suppose we'll have to wait for frame data on that.

The nerf to 5B hurts the most out of all the changes since it was more or less our best poke that gave us a great edge in footsies(along with our 236x) but we'll just have to make do.

I've heard of the greater vertical hitbox of 5C before and I wonder if it'll have any application as a faster anti air reaction choice for those times 2C would be too slow to grab.

[pktazn]

Thanks for the info Logic. I'll add your findings to the first post.

I'm getting a CS1 vibe of we need charges to do anything significant but it's hard to get those charges in the first place. If anything they need to figure out how they want us to get those charges. I'm all for spending heat to get more charges if necessary honestly.

[atdsutm]

how much damage could she usually net especially with 623C > j.236A(w) > j.214D on corner? and 6A?

[Airk]

Thanks for the info Logic, even if it does mostly confirm my gloomy assumptions about how things were shaking up.

On the one hand, these changes aren't THAT bad... but on the other, they ARE pretty bad if you ask me. Why it was necessary to TRIPLE NERF Tsubaki (Footsies nerf from 5B, charging nerf with both slower charge and less power per special AND a general damage nerf) and then give her some cheap consolation prizes (Oh yay, it's easier to OTG with 5C now, hooray, what a great tradeoff for losing our one decent poke. Sorry, but 5C is still too short ranged to be useful outside of combos. Hooray, Air Mugen. /eyeroll.) when she was already so thoroughly middle of the road? What exactly were they trying to do? Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure they overdid it. I feel like we're back in "Oh, you need charge to do non-terrible damage, but even if you manage to get some, you won't do the same level of damage as a lot of cast." land. >frustrated<

How unhype am I for EX right now? Extremely.

Bah. Sorry. Rant over.

[SolarMisae]

Hrm, I dunno much Tsubaki but honestly I think theres a possibility that she can still be good. It might just be because everyone is still in CS2 mode. From CS2 looking in, you see a bunch of stuff that doesn't work anymore. I think she just needs someone to sit down with her and find out what she's able to do with her new tools.

But I could easily be wrong. But I think that she needs time before people start saying she's bad.

[HajinShinobi]

Thanks for confirming what you were able to find, Logic. I feared 5B was that much worse (we really do need our 5B for footsies, Ragna will be much more difficult to fight now because of this), but I agree with Batousai. With 5B being slower, I've been thinking that it's probably +0 now, it might even be 1 (or 2) frame slower now..

5C being faster now, especially with a more vertical hitbox is pretty nice. But in the long run, it's NOT a good or fair trade off to 5B being slower. It was our one good AND safe poke and gave us an in for footsies. But I guess now we'll just make other approaches, or probably start using 5B a bit more pre-emptively.

On the other hand, Solar has a point too. I'm now more interested in seeing what those of us who are getting Extend early can find since they'll be able to explore more options and see what they can up with. Trying to find stuff like an optimal BnB (outside of 5BB > 2BB > 5CC > 236A > 214A > 22A) should definitely be on that list of objectives. Although I guess 5B/5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.214A(w) > hj.CC > j.236C > j.214A isnt too terrible.

Finding anything else we dont already know about ultilizing her altered toolbox will be interesting as well.

Edited November 17, 2011 by HajinShinobi

[Airk]

Hrm, I dunno much Tsubaki but honestly I think theres a possibility that she can still be good. It might just be because everyone is still in CS2 mode. From CS2 looking in, you see a bunch of stuff that doesn't work anymore. I think she just needs someone to sit down with her and find out what she's able to do with her new tools.

I'd like to think this too, but then I see what the other characters are doing (Hi, my name is Ragna the Bloodedge, and I do 3.2K midscreen of an overhead for no meter, and require none of your fancy, newfangled "charges"). and I start to think that either A) CS:EX isn't actually all that different for a lot of characters and/or B) They missed the mark pretty badly on tuning everyone to the same level.

But I could easily be wrong. But I think that she needs time before people start saying she's bad.

I agree; While I'm glooming all over the place here, that's mostly because I'm raging against how absurd all these changes seem to be. There just...doesn't seem to be any reason for most of it. It's just "nerfed you because we could. Don't worry though, Hazama and Litchi are still stupid good." I don't think, barring even more "delightful" discoveries coming to light, that Tsubaki is going to be bad (at least, not in the sense of CS1 bad) but I do think (Think, not know) that she's going to be in the running for bottom tier, and that really seems senseless.

[pktazn]

Ragna and a few others are more of the exception in Extend imo. Everyone else seems to be on a somewhat more "even" level from what I've seen i.e. risk/reward, overall mid-screen damage, etc.

However, I agree in the idea that while she might not be bad, there are other characters that are better depending on what you want in this iteration.

Edited November 17, 2011 by pktazn

[logichole]

As a note, I've been intentionally avoiding reading too much about CSX to this point. I find that speculating based on partial translations of Japanese fighting game slang makes it really easy to get misleading initial impressions. I tried to go in with a clean slate and no expectations.

Velvien: My reasoning for 5B not being + on block in CS2 is that it was +1 in CS2, and now has more recovery. Unless the blockstun on it was increased, and I don't think the level of the attack was increased, it is at best +0 now. I didn't do any formal tests to determine frame advantage.

BatousaiJ: Yeah, the 5B nerf was painful. With more playtime I think I could adjust to it - the altered timing on 5B > dash was really messing with my head.

I think the 5C buff is worth finding new applications for. It is a damn rocket. Shockingly fast.

atdsutm: If I recall correctly, the 22D > 6CC > 623C > j.236A(w) > j.214D > 5C 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C 2CC [...] was pulling down 5K+ damage. Not inconsiderable, considering the generally lower damage for everyone in CSX.

Airk: I agree with you, but I should clarify: air mugen may be a bauble, but combined with ~30% longer duration on mugen it is possibly a fruitful avenue for exploration. If the new BnB ends in the air, having the option to mugen there and continue with j.236D j.214D > ground D-special > ground string, for a single charge, could be very useful.

I admit it was frustrating to see other players feeling right at home in CSX (and Tager is actually good now, hah! Good for him.) Here is my theory (or rationalization at least) on why these changes were made.

I think the 5B/5C changes are paired. In CS2 5B was very strong, and 5C less so. 5B and 5C are now very similar. Maybe they can be used as mixup somehow (frametrap into CH 5C starter? Pure speculation.) Easy 5C OTG pickup and IAD j.CC > 5C is also nice but not a huge deal.

The mugen duration increase / air mugen / DP Dive Whiff nerf / charge speed changes mean that Tsubaki gets less charge and damage staying on the ground. So she goes aerial but has more charge and damage options once up there. She gives up pressure and positioning to gain charges, but... that's pretty much the definition of Tsubaki. Corner damage is still high with charges (with j.236A(w) j.214D).

This is all really speculation and initial impressions from me. I'll freely admit I'm not the best player around (I got whomped on at NWM3... video to come.) I probably missed a lot, and I'd need a lot more time to explore combo options.

So when is PSVita BBCSX coming out in Japan? I hear Vita will be region-free..

Edited November 17, 2011 by logichole

[HajinShinobi]

I admit it was frustrating to see other players feeling right at home in CSX (and Tager is actually good now, hah! Good for him.) Here is my theory (or rationalization at least) on why these changes were made.

I think the 5B/5C changes are paired. In CS2 5B was very strong, and 5C less so. 5B and 5C are now very similar. Maybe they can be used as mixup somehow (frametrap into CH 5C starter? Pure speculation.) Easy 5C OTG pickup and IAD j.CC > 5C is also nice but not a huge deal.

The mugen duration increase / air mugen / DP Dive Whiff nerf / charge speed changes mean that Tsubaki gets less charge and damage staying on the ground. So she goes aerial but has more charge and damage options once up there. She gives up pressure and positioning to gain charges, but... that's pretty much the definition of Tsubaki. Corner damage is still high with charges (with j.236A(w) j.214D).

This is all really speculation and initial impressions from me. I'll freely admit I'm not the best player around (I got whomped on at NWM3... video to come.) I probably missed a lot, and I'd need a lot more time to explore combo options.

^ This here, actually makes alot of sense. I've been considering the reasoning behind j.D, DP Whiff change and Air Mugen myself but wasnt too sure if this was it. My mind is still in the CS2 era since I'm still considered a new player so I havent been considering an entirely new strategy that CSX Tsubaki will have to play in Extend.

[Airk]

I remain less than optimistic. I'm not seeing air mugen and air charge as sufficient improvements to Tsubaki's air game (air normals: still mediocre) to really shift the focus up there any, except as in sort of "well, this is all we've got, so even though it's not good, I guess it's better than nothing" way. Air charge does nothing to improve our air game, and fewer charges overall means air mugen is less useful than it could be.

Anyway, taking my wet blanket back into the closet. I'm not going to say much about this until people have been playing EX for a while (or the frame data gets published), in which case I'll weigh in with either an "I told you so" or a "my bad."

[Fallacy]

So when is PSVita BBCSX coming out in Japan? I hear Vita will be region-free..

Vita is Dec. 17 in Japan and BBCSX is a launch title.

[pktazn]

Thanks for more info Logic. I'll add the clarifications it to the first post.

I admit it was frustrating to see other players feeling right at home in CSX (and Tager is actually good now, hah! Good for him.) Here is my theory (or rationalization at least) on why these changes were made.

The mugen duration increase / air mugen / DP Dive Whiff nerf / charge speed changes mean that Tsubaki gets less charge and damage staying on the ground. So she goes aerial but has more charge and damage options once up there. She gives up pressure and positioning to gain charges, but... that's pretty much the definition of Tsubaki. Corner damage is still high with charges (with j.236A(w) j.214D).

If anything, they feel more comfortable most likely because they actually have had something to go on in terms of Extend for awhile (if they've been watching videos). There's noticeably less videos for Tsubaki compared to a majority of the rest of the cast and when we do get videos they're less than stellar. For Tsu at least, this may be because she was terrible in CS1 and no one really played her, even in Japan. The first time they really started to play her was CS2 so she's only really had one iteration of people willing to play her and find out strategies for her. The other characters have had at least two iterations of established ideas, tactics, and whatnot of how to play their character, besides the DLC characters which had the blessing of not actually being terrible, even though how they play them has been modified each iteration. At least, that's just how I see it.

I can see what they're going for in that they want Tsubaki in the air more but it doesn't look like they've done anything to help her air normals which get beaten out a good majority of the time. So in addition to figuring out how they want Tsubaki to get charges, they also have to do something to her air normals. Actually did you notice anything about her air normals while playing her? I'm still super hype for figuring air mugen stuff though.

I remain less than optimistic. I'm not seeing air mugen and air charge as sufficient improvements to Tsubaki's air game (air normals: still mediocre) to really shift the focus up there any, except as in sort of "well, this is all we've got, so even though it's not good, I guess it's better than nothing" way. Air charge does nothing to improve our air game, and fewer charges overall means air mugen is less useful than it could be.

Anyway, taking my wet blanket back into the closet. I'm not going to say much about this until people have been playing EX for a while (or the frame data gets published), in which case I'll weigh in with either an "I told you so" or a "my bad."

I see what you're getting at since I agree they need to do something to her air normals. However, on my own general principles I have to ask you about your last sentence: Will it really matter in the end if you get to say whether or not you were right? I'm just curious because that's the vibe I'm getting.

I havent been considering an entirely new strategy that CSX Tsubaki will have to play in Extend.

Whenever a new iteration comes out, it's always safe to assume you're going to have to be changing your strategies in some way, or finding completely new ones, especially with Arc's balance changes :D

Edited November 17, 2011 by pktazn

[BatousaiJ]

I remember using j.D a lot more in CS 1 because back then charging didn't put us in CH state and getting hit in the air by most characters didn't usually end up being punished too hard.

In CS 2, 5D was just too good to the point where the uses of j.D was mostly obsolete.

In CSEX, I think we're going to use a lot of hj.D and option select forward/back dash along with j.214x to get ourselves to safety but since we kept the CH state during charge, getting hit while j.D is going to lead to a lot more damage in most of the cases. So you're going to have to be smart when you decide to do so and manage your combos accordingly so you can get more untechable time(236C > 214C > 22C ender instead of 22C > 5C > 2C > 236B > etc etc and one jump air combo ender).

It's going to take a bit of time to get adjusted to that change but when it comes down to it, we should be able to keep 1-2 charges stacked up at most given times which is just dandy.

[pktazn]

1-2 charges is more than enough to unleash the pain. We just need to figure out ways to optimize it. :3

Mugen seems like the way to go for that since I've seen it used more in EX compared to the whole lifetime of it being in CS1 (only one who I saw use it constantly was Nezu since he trolled with her) and CS2, although it costs heat.

[Airk]

[quote=pktazn;1194699

I see what you're getting at since I agree they need to do something to her air normals. However, on my own general principles I have to ask you about your last sentence: Will it really matter in the end if you get to say whether or not you were right? I'm just curious because that's the vibe I'm getting.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Airk

[atdsutm]

1-2 charges is more than enough to unleash the pain. We just need to figure out ways to optimize it. :3

This its just im concerned on how much damage tsubaki could deal mid screen coming for her 5B? (3k is the best discovered so far?) and as long as her damage is justified via starters, charges and meter.

im also concerned about her air game and possible combo routes that will leave her at the air to charge (since that would be important now).

[Errol]

we can get almost , maybe even 3k mid screen with no charge right now. best 3k I've seen uses 1 charge in extend. Not so hot really. Obviously the game is playable, but "innovations" don't just take you from bottom to actually good. But whatever, Hakumen was bottom in cs2 and he still manhandled LK.

[pktazn]

@Airk: Thanks for answering my random inquiry. I appreciate it. Arcsys really has no idea what they want for Tsubaki atm but I have hope that they'll figure it out... eventually.

@atdsutm: 3k mid-screen really isn't that bad in Extend. Most I see consistently from characters is 2-2.5k mid-screen except for some characters depending on their starter and whether or not it was a CH. Her air game doesn't really look like it's changed except for the dashes after j.D. I don't know if her air normals got any better, which is important if they're trying to push her air game since they're absolutely terrible compared to a good majority of the cast.

we can get almost , maybe even 3k mid screen with no charge right now. best 3k I've seen uses 1 charge in extend. Not so hot really. Obviously the game is playable, but "innovations" don't just take you from bottom to actually good. But whatever, Hakumen was bottom in cs2 and he still manhandled LK.

Spark won because he played his best, not because of his character. His character helped but it was his insane defense, strategies, knowledge, match-up exp, etc. using Hakumen that let him win.

[Errol]

Spark won because he played his best, not because of his character. His character helped but it was his insane defense, strategies, knowledge, match-up exp, etc. using Hakumen that let him win.

uhh, yeah, what did you think I was saying?

[pktazn]

The way you worded it made it sound like he only won because of his character, not because of him.

[Errol]

The way I read it made it sound like he only won because of his character, not because of him.

fixed