pktazn Posted November 23, 2011 Author Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) Again, I said it's my opinion from all the events I've watched and the events I'm watching while typing this post and I'm sticking to it. From what I can see, it's not just the damage (though it's a factor) but rather her tools to get to the opponent as well. Tsubaki will suffer for as long as Arcsys randomly tweaks her moves, in a bad way, and her damage without charge to her damage with charge. She's very delicate lol. Whether or not you guys agree with me, I have a feeling that they don't want her damage without charge to be high and instead wish for her damage to be through those charges since that's her selling point so to speak. However, they also need to figure out better ways that will allow us to get charges. But it also falls on the people playing her to figure things out. Out of all the characters, I feel Tsubaki is probably one of the most underplayed character in BB. Hence why, it shall be up to us amazing DL Tsubaki players to exploit her strengths and screw with everyone else when we get Extend :3 Edited November 23, 2011 by pktazn
HajinShinobi Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) But it also falls on the people playing her to figure things out. Out of all the characters, I feel Tsubaki is probably one of the most underplayed character in BB. Hence why, it shall be up to us amazing DL Tsubaki players to exploit her strengths and screw with everyone else when we get Extend :3 ^ This, I'm with this 100% simply because we NEED to get our hands on the console version and start doing uber amounts of trial and error OURSELVES before deeming this character as "terrible" or "not that great" or "still pretty damn good". And it'll help even more due to the fact that there are more of us around here that are either pretty knowledgeable or very knowledgeable about the game and the character (myself being pretty knowledgeable, and someone like BatousaiJ being very knowledgeable, which is higher lol). Edited November 23, 2011 by HajinShinobi
BeaverDeity Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 Well there's going to be some BBCSE at SCR so if anybody from here is going besides me we could talk about Tsubaki there :3
Tsubaki 5B Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 Again, I said it's my opinion from all the events I've watched and the events I'm watching while typing this post and I'm sticking to it. From what I can see, it's not just the damage (though it's a factor) but rather her tools to get to the opponent as well. Tsubaki will suffer for as long as Arcsys randomly tweaks her moves, in a bad way, and her damage without charge to her damage with charge. She's very delicate lol. Whether or not you guys agree with me, I have a feeling that they don't want her damage without charge to be high and instead wish for her damage to be through those charges since that's her selling point so to speak. However, they also need to figure out better ways that will allow us to get charges. But it also falls on the people playing her to figure things out. Out of all the characters, I feel Tsubaki is probably one of the most underplayed character in BB. Hence why, it shall be up to us amazing DL Tsubaki players to exploit her strengths and screw with everyone else when we get Extend :3hmm ok don't worry we will but i guess it's crunch time now for us tsubaki's but who knows maybe theirs some hidden tech with the new tsubaki no one has really cracked her open yet and have a little faith people i mean it's not like were cs1 tsubaki you can tell just by watching the vids theirs more too her welp that's my two cents on the matter oh and remember guys these are opinions nothing said in stone just yet. oh and one last thing i'm pretty sure you remember dark days when their was only like 4 tsubak's in the general thread sigh mori probably like just as planned right now damn him >.<
Errol Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 I think the only thing that people here getting a copy of the game will do is to cause reality to set in. I think all of the main stuff we use in CS2 we saw within a few weeks or a month of arcade release. No one had to send any express mail to Japan to tell Konan all the hidden tech we found. I'm sure there'll be some changes over time, but nothing radical. D to C maybe?... Or it could be kinda like CS1 rachel, where they found some interesting stuff at the end, raising her from rachel tier to rachel tier
pktazn Posted November 23, 2011 Author Posted November 23, 2011 Why does it have to be radical shifts? It can be minor strategies found that we don't see the Japanese players doing. They're not the be all, end all. Does this mean she'll suddenly jump from bottom to top? No, but that doesn't mean we still can't try to give hell to the people we play. For CS2, there were about 10x as many people playing Tsubaki which could account for how fast they figured her out.
Rhiya Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 Why does it have to be radical shifts? It can be minor strategies found that we don't see the Japanese players doing. Because an extra trick in your bag of gimmicks doesn't raise your character a tier. For Tsubaki to get better, she'll need better combo paths than what she has right now, better oki, and better ways to use her spacing tools. She's fundamentally weak because of the way the character plays, so people were like "screw this" and dropped her.
pktazn Posted November 23, 2011 Author Posted November 23, 2011 Except I don't care about tiers. I understand that there are a lot of things that Tsubaki needs work on but for me, tiers don't matter for the character I play but I also want to note I understand the logic behind tiers and why they exist. As long as I'm having fun then bring it on, I'm going to make you work for your win even if I end up losing. Disclaimer: I speak for myself and no one else.
Errol Posted November 23, 2011 Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) What is the logic behind tiers and why they exist..? Let's just say that I'm not quite sure myself. Here is what I know: a. Character Strength affects your odds of winning by a large amount. b. People playing very competitive games at a high level don't like losing, almost a fundamental truth c. People have strong incentive to not switch characters just because of some changes, as they have spent a lot of time into a character learning it d. Given that, if lots of people are going to abandon a character or the game, that character is probably pretty damn bad.. and they probably spent a pretty good amount of time playing to convince themselves of that. So.. tiers? I guess I don't really care about tiers, all the tiers tell me is what I already knew: Tsubaki doesn't get played as much because she's quite bad now. It's just a little more direct way of telling you the char is bad. It's going to be up to each individual person whether they care if the char they play is bad or not. Edited November 23, 2011 by Errol
atdsutm Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 thats kinda sad, if they nerfed her damage they should have left her charging alone. or maybe arcsys should make a mini-patch to improve her charging.
Daedron Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 It should have been a nerf to her damage and not touching her charge speed at all OR a nerf to charge speed but leave her damage alone. Too bad we got all of that + combo path nerfs + 5B speed nerfs + whatever else I missed. Oh well, we'll have to cope with it anyways, at least we're not even close to CS1 levels.
Errol Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 It should have been a nerf to her damage and not touching her charge speed at all OR a nerf to charge speed but leave her damage alone. Too bad we got all of that + combo path nerfs + 5B speed nerfs + whatever else I missed. Oh well, we'll have to cope with it anyways, at least we're not even close to CS1 levels. What do you mean, we had a good 5b in CS1.
Airk Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 It should have been a nerf to her damage and not touching her charge speed at all OR a nerf to charge speed but leave her damage alone. Too bad we got all of that + combo path nerfs + 5B speed nerfs + whatever else I missed. Possible run-speed nerf, possible 214D nerf, blahblah stuff. But don't worry, 6A is a fatal counter now! <tries to remember the last time he landed 6A as a counter hit...> And you can do air Mugen! But yeah. My mind is blown. It feels like we got the treatment usually reserved for top tier characters, when I don't think anyone would have accused Tsubaki of being top tier in CS2. (I had some random Hazama-using loser on XBL the other day ask me why (after I beat him) that I used such a bad character, and that he doesn't understand why anyone uses anyone besides Hazama and Bang. ... ....... ..... ? I love XBL.)
Andru Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 You guys forgot Tsubaki won SBO! Lol~ In any case.. majority of ranking for JP Tier List right now is a PSR list, so the tiers rank high PSR to character ratio. There's only like three good Tsubaki players. We all know how many horrible ones we saw on the JP vids too. I mean yeah, she did get nerfed, but there are factors that are unknown as of yet like air mugen practicality, and dat undiscovered technology. I just honestly don't believe she will stay at D.
Errol Posted November 24, 2011 Posted November 24, 2011 I don't think they're based on PSR. but PSR -wise, tsubaki is the only character not represented in japan's top 100 PSRs.
BeaverDeity Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 Needs more 22D midscreen wallbounce again 8)
shad0whiei Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 ^ this. I do miss the wallbounce shenanigans. But I think people are just scared of change. I don't mind the 5b nerf. I think 5c is enough compensation for it. I dunno when it actually started but I don't remember seeing dp whiff combos till late into cs2. I'm sure some nice tech stuff will show up. Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Rhiya Posted November 25, 2011 Posted November 25, 2011 I don't mind the 5b nerf. I think 5c is enough compensation for it. I don't see how buffing a move that's worthless for spacing compensates for nerfing your only spacing normal. I dunno when it actually started but I don't remember seeing dp whiff combos till late into cs2. We had DP whiff before any of the console versions released.
Daedron Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 . I dunno when it actually started but I don't remember seeing dp whiff combos till late into cs2. I'm sure some nice tech stuff will show up. Looking through the CS 2 videos, it seems to have been discovered pretty early considering I'm seeing people use it in early January matches, so only about 1 month after CS2 came out in Japanese arcades came out has it been discovered. We're now a bit longer into CS:EX and nothing new has been discovered, you can blame this on the fact that a lot of people aren't going to be playing it anymore, but I'm just gonna say that there just is nothing new to be discovered... Except for optimal combo paths I guess, maybe some mugen stuff.
Airk Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 Looking through the CS 2 videos, it seems to have been discovered pretty early considering I'm seeing people use it in early January matches, so only about 1 month after CS2 came out in Japanese arcades came out has it been discovered. We're now a bit longer into CS:EX and nothing new has been discovered, you can blame this on the fact that a lot of people aren't going to be playing it anymore, but I'm just gonna say that there just is nothing new to be discovered... Except for optimal combo paths I guess, maybe some mugen stuff. Well, I saw someone doing a mid-combo air charge the other day, which was new to ME, but I haven't entirely been studying this stuff.
Errol Posted November 26, 2011 Posted November 26, 2011 Well, I saw someone doing a mid-combo air charge the other day, which was new to ME, but I haven't entirely been studying this stuff. mid combo air charge was new when I think gravo released his combo video. the same one that had the 623c->2cc loop. But it's not really bread and butter in cs2. cs ex, it might be
Tsubaki 5B Posted November 27, 2011 Posted November 27, 2011 i think we should open a CSX combo thread for tsubaki or edit our current one
Tsubaki 5B Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 just sayin or we could make some changes to the current one since most of her combos start with 5C now for example this one you could add FC 3C>5C>2CC>IAD>j.CC>5C>2C>236B>214B>22B also i think you can't combo this while they are crouched 236C>5A>5BB>2BB>5CC>6BB cuz right here i saw litchi block but yea i know it's not much but hey it's a start and kiba we don't have to make it now lol when we import it lol or when the us gets it i probably should have said that ooo well my bad haha
Kiba Posted November 28, 2011 Posted November 28, 2011 Don't worry about it. I wasn't trying to hotspot you. I was just curious. I don't think a new thread should be created until the US gets it like you said though. The 236C - combo doesn't work because 236C has been hit harder in regards to proration. It'll most likely have to go: 236C - 5BB - 5CC - 6BB - stuff, or if you can't use 6B we'd have to just go directly to the special ender finisher. 6B in that case though can be used as an extremely weak reset (Extremely weak because players should be blocking low after a 5C anyway), and even then it's not like we'd be able to get much from it unless we were in the corner or unless some new options have been discovered. For now, most of the beginner combos would still apply, and this below combo can be added to the list on EX combos: Corner Throw - 6CC - 236C - 5C - 2C - 236C - 214C - 22C The combo that Kuresu used on Hima could be added as well but I'd like to see how much further we can go with that combo and research on what other things could be mixed in. Though, I figure it's too early to be talking about this.
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