chzchan Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 I would like to second that. I really really want to know what sort of positive thinking I can do in a Mu-12 match. Regarding the j.236A and 421A corner oki, the same holds true for Hakumen and Tager. You'll just get standard oki which you'll have to work with. Perhaps use > 22 > 5C > 2C > j.C > j.236A > j.214A and make them tech in the air. I have been doing this against characters which are difficult to deal with on their neutral tech and it's not bad at all. You can see Konan do this in some of his matches. Side note, > 22B(w) (on airbourne opponent) > 421A corner oki isn't effective against most of the cast. In fact I don't even think 421A is useful unless you use 22D > 6C > 421A. Now, against Azrael, if I had to choose out of using j.236A to gain charge and give Azrael a fireball, or charge in bursts and keep retreating playing another game, I'd choose the former. I can't emphasise how much charge is extremely important in this matchup. I've played some pretty good Azraels and I've found this method to be the most effective. By the time he has the fireball, you should already have some charge, and you need to make the decision whether to go on the offensive or play a little passive in the hope that he uses it and it whiffs, or is blocked. Like, you can avoid the j.236A, but then you don't seem to have a way to stop him getting in (remember gustaf is the main issue here). It's easier for him to move around. Well yeah, what I have to resort to doing is yolo air enders. I have seen promise in using air enders when you are as close to the corner as possible so that you land right under your opponent. If they tech forward, you get to grab them from behind. What are the particular things that I should be using charge for in the Azrael matchup aside from damage and covering my DP when I get cornered? It is super scary when it almost seems like they forget that they have a projectile and don't just whop it out within the next 10 seconds to try and tag you charging like most Azraels do. If they save it I even sometimes forget that they have it and that spells doom for me.
Kiba Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 Kiba-- I like these categories and they give a much broader approach to match ups. Please add Mu somewhere haha. I am trying to figure out if there is another category to consider. Jin, Bullet, Makoto, Tsubaki, Terumi (though he is aggressive) etc may be in that neutral area. I would like to second that. I really really want to know what sort of positive thinking I can do in a Mu-12 match. Ah really? Thanks! I think it'll be safer for me to give a thorough rundown once I wake up tomorrow haha. A little tired right now and I want to avoid chatting crap lmfao. What I can say is Mu is definitely a disrupter. You have to play patient once she has Stein's Gate up or you're gonna lose pretty badly. Match start you'll want to rush her down to avoid this, but her C normals are problematic. You can charge, but you may have to face Stein's Gate. It's a gamble and you'll have to roll with the choice you make. I think throwing in a mixture of the two is great, so charging in short bursts then marking her down. With characters like Jin and Bullet, I think there may be some kind of middle ground for them you know? I feel Terumi is an aggressor. His speed really helps him out a lot against Tsubaki, and his 5D can be troublesome. The thing I really like about Tsubaki is that she's flexible. You don't have to charge in neutral sometimes since you're given several opportunities to charge after knockdowns even though you won't be able to do it as long. Remember you're still benefiting from charge cancels too. If we HAD to charge before starting our gameplan (like Izayoi maybe?), she'd be much worse than she is y'know.
chzchan Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 Yeah I like this a lot as well, but get your rest. I'm still writing a reply to your reply to my stuff about Azrael earlier.
Kiba Posted October 3, 2014 Posted October 3, 2014 What are the particular things that I should be using charge for in the Azrael matchup aside from damage and covering my DP when I get cornered? It is super scary when it almost seems like they forget that they have a projectile and don't just whop it out within the next 10 seconds to try and tag you charging like most Azraels do. If they save it I even sometimes forget that they have it and that spells doom for me. Nothing else comes to mind except the occasional 236D. Maybe for certain other characters I can classify them in a 'balanced' category. They won't be as aggressive as the aggressors since they have some little tools of their own. Such characters like Jin, has 236A to use and has to balance pressuring you midscreen and returning to neutral if that doesn't work. The difference here is that some aggressors gain nothing by retreating. Jin can still 'pressure' by throwing his own projectiles. Before I continue, on a side note, some characters can be put into two categories. I think Bang can probably fit into both Aggressor and disrupter. With that aside, the same holds true to Izayoi, with her sonic sabres in neutral and her specials on block to help her gain stars. It's more harsh for Izayoi because her gameplan is slow, Tsubaki can use j.D to avoid sabres and can play lame if she wanted. Other characters I'd place in this category would be Bullet, Tsubaki and possbly Carl. With these matchups it's generally easier to obtain charge in neutral than it is against the other two categories. I'm unsure about Kagura, and I don't think either of the 3 categories effectively explain Hakumen's placement. So, Disrupters: Mu-12, Kokonoe, Nu-13, Bang, Hazama, Arakune, Litchi even, Rachel, Platinum, Relius, Amane? Aggressors: Azrael, Bang, Taokaka, Terumi, Valkenhayn Balanced: Jin, Noel, Makoto, Bullet, Tsubaki, Carl, Izayoi, Tager, Amane? This is just what I think. I think we can all agree that the disruptors hold the majority of really difficult matchups, whilst the majority of characters in the balanced category hold some of her easier matchups. Maybe applying this logic we could place Hakumen in the disruptor category, as a mental disruptor anyway (or maybe just have his own category lol). Kagura might be in balanced...I dunno.
chzchan Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 I'm not really sure what Kagura would be defined as. He is different. Like it feels like I have the ability to lame him out due to the nature of his moves, but it doesn't always work for some reason. He does feel pretty even, but I would say that he is at an advantage because once he gets one combo in that ends in corner oki you're done. That is not the same for Tsubaki because her combos do not take out half of your health and her pressure is stubby and easy to hop out of so she can't hold onto people as easily. There's a lot of creative shit you can do with him as well. I would say Tsubaki has a much easier time closing distance and running away, though. Also it is easy to DP out of Kagura's pressure if you see them commiting to stances if you count them correctly. Just with how matches usually end up going, I would say that I fight him like I fight Tager, except I am able to use corner oki on him. He can't realy do much about me flying around or charging unless I am stupid and hold into D for too long and get Wyvern CH to the face.
Kiba Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 I'm not really sure what Kagura would be defined as. He is different. Like it feels like I have the ability to lame him out due to the nature of his moves, but it doesn't always work for some reason. He does feel pretty even, but I would say that he is at an advantage because once he gets one combo in that ends in corner oki you're done. That is not the same for Tsubaki because her combos do not take out half of your health and her pressure is stubby and easy to hop out of so she can't hold onto people as easily. There's a lot of creative shit you can do with him as well. I would say Tsubaki has a much easier time closing distance and running away, though. Also it is easy to DP out of Kagura's pressure if you see them commiting to stances if you count them correctly. Just with how matches usually end up going, I would say that I fight him like I fight Tager, except I am able to use corner oki on him. He can't realy do much about me flying around or charging unless I am stupid and hold into D for too long and get Wyvern CH to the face. Can probably put him in the balanced category then because he seems like another character you have to play passive aggressive against. His DP is going to shut you down most of the time, but you will have a little more opportunities to charge. Yeah, he is a hard hitter, but I believe delay techs work well against him? The thing about Kagura is that he generally needs to make a lot of commitments for his pressure. Only real worry is command grab but only when he's in 2A range otherwise it's not a viable option (due to range). Tsubaki isn't going to be able to deal with disruptors unless she develops a strong (or stronger) neutral game. In turn this may also make the aggressors back off or take caution whilst trying to get in (like against Rachel). Against all 3 categories, if gaining charge was much more scary (as many of you have said), the opponent's gameplan would change and it may not work really well for them to be entirely aggressive.
bakahyl Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 About being scary, doesn't Tsubaki have the advantage of having a somewhat safe dp with charge? Meaning that the opponent needs to play more carefully when she has charge and that seems somewhat like a deterrent to me, well that is based from what i can see based on how kuresu plays
Kiba Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 Sure, although there are ways for characters to deal with it you know. 623C > j.214D is tight but punishable on block. 623C > j.236D can be dealt with by running underneath the fireball and punishing her on descent. The fact that she has the 1st option available means that she may be able to get away with at times, hence why sometimes if they try to punish Tsubaki late, she could probably just DP you again. Some characters don't even care about it because they may not have to really deal with it (mainly the disruptors).
chzchan Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 About being scary, doesn't Tsubaki have the advantage of having a somewhat safe dp with charge? Meaning that the opponent needs to play more carefully when she has charge and that seems somewhat like a deterrent to me, well that is based from what i can see based on how kuresu plays That's what you would think, but it doesn't really work like that psychologically. She isn't scary unless your opponent thinks she is which is pretty difficult if they know how she works. I have said this before because I have asked people at locals, but people really don't watch Tsubaki's resources or care that I am getting charges. I guess I can use that to my advantage, but the benefits of respect heavily heavily outweigh the benefits of of disrespect, especially because Tsubaki's neutral and oki game are garbage. Like Azrael's drive resources have this sort of psychological effect when you are under his pressure because they make you second guess your second guesses when he is pressuring you and then he gets huge damage off of them when he gets in a hit. You are going to be afraid of getting hit by him and especially afraid when you have a mark on. I want people to be afraid of Tsubaki when she has part of her bar filled, maybe not in the same way as Azrael, but I just want the fear to exist.
Airk Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 See "A safe DP" isn't really scary. At worst, with two charges, it's 3k and return to neutral. With only one charge, it's just more annoying to punish, or you can just return to neutral again. Tsubaki's neutral isn't scary, therefore 'Oh no, she hit me with her DP for a little damage and a return to neutral" isn't scary either. At best, it's annoying. I'm done suggesting ways they could make her scary. We've done that.
chzchan Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Oh yeah I wasn't trying to segue into that. I actually wanted to try and maybe instigate a communal listing of of things we can do to make ourselves scary in a fight regardless of how effective they are instead of making suggestions for changes that will never happen. Of course the listing would be based on the matchup because that is currently being discussed.
zaeris Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 The new game is out in a few days so the point is moot.
chzchan Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 The new game is out in a few days so the point is moot. Well, I guess that is true, but I doubt her general game will change that much in 2.0 unless Arc really decides to. I mean, I guess there maybe might be j.214D overhead and 421D might have some neat neutral utility maybe but probably not, and 236C will probably cause cross-through, but that is about it unless they drastically change a bunch of other stuff about about her not already changed in the location test. Another side gimmick sorta thing just because that I'm going to add onto this. I really haven't gotten creative with it yet, but if you do Grab > 214B(delay) > 22[D] > 6CC > 214B (SMP) if your opponent techs immediately they end up facing the opposite direction. I am not sure what the cause of this is and I have not figured out how to take advantage of it so far, but it has potential to be a fun gimmick if you have both the Grab and 1 charge. It looks really funny if they forward tech because they fly in the opposite direction. Oh shit actually screw the SMP route for now. If you do Grab > 214B(delay) > 22[D] > 6CC > 22B you get my gimmick setup again. Damn that's funny. Very dependent on height, though. Grab > 214B(delay) > RC > 214B(SMP) gets the setup as well.
Kiba Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Oh yeah I wasn't trying to segue into that. I actually wanted to try and maybe instigate a communal listing of of things we can do to make ourselves scary in a fight regardless of how effective they are instead of making suggestions for changes that will never happen. Of course the listing would be based on the matchup because that is currently being discussed. Something like Kara throws: Deceptive range, easy to perform, and Tsubaki actually deals quite good damage from this with 1 charge. They're really effective. I cannot stress this enough. Unorthodox pressure: Stuff like, charge cancel pressure into IAD j.C, or you could do something like 5C > 5D, then micro dash 5C after 1.5 seconds to score counter hits (corner only). It doesn't work against those who are mashing after the 5C and there has to be some conditioning to it. It's good because you can see how the opponent reacts and act accordingly. This would really only apply to characters that can't get out of pressure such as, Valk. If a Tsubaki tried this tactic against me, I'd just super jump > 7D and wolf out of there. Using 2A stagger: 5A is alright but it's negative on block. When I rely on 5A I sometimes get mashed out of 5A > micro dash 5A, but I get CHs with 2A. 2A is 0 on block. Extended use of 2A may encourage players to mash, and you can catch the mashers. It's also good for setting up command grabs, throws, but I don't think its very effective for setting up 6A. I also think this is not very effective against Hakumen because of 2D. Use of 421D > 236D: Mainly useful against the disruptors but it doesn't help if you just keep throwing it out. You need to try and catch them with this when they have committed to something, such as when Rachel tries to use Lotus or frog, or when Nu is using spike chaser. Those are good opportunities to rack some damage and get in. There are also general things like combo optimisation. You don't need to use the hard stuff or the character specific nonsense. Some of Tsubaki's easier combos are actually quite damaging, like her throw combo with 1 charge that goes into 3.2k. Also punishment, if they whiff something big, you need to make them pay, and that won't work if you're getting less than 3k you know. Tsubaki's most damaging punish without resources is 3.8k, and remember I've made a list of them in the strategy guide. One big thing people can do is while playing online, save the replays and watch them back. Analyse them and see what gaps you can fill in your gameplay? Does your pressure need to be more solid? Do you need to use throws/command grabs more? Do you need to mix up your option from IAD j.C rather than going for IAD j.CC? (IAD j.C > throw/command grab/low/6A/j.CC) It's just using the simple stuff really. I don't think there is a need to overcomplicate things if you can use the simple stuff effectively.
chzchan Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Staggered 2A catches jumpers, right? Also, is it worth it to use 421D >236D as a pressure/oki tool ever?
TeeJay Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Staggered 2A catches jumpers, right? Also, is it worth it to used 421D >236D as a pressure/oki tool ever? you can yomi call out buttons after 6B with 421D>236D if you don't mind using the meter or confirm off of 421D since the stagger can catch people sometimes.
Kiba Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I think stagger 2A catches jump outs, not completely certain on that. Regarding 421A > 236D, I'm real iffy about using that for pressure. All it does is guarantee you a 5A attack, although I'm not sure that's the same case on IB. I mean, you can condition your opponent into block so you can do other things like throw / command grab / 6A. The 5A timing may be a little hard and if you don't do it asap that leaves a gap for certain characters to backdash (Mu-12 / Nu-13) or DP. Using it from Teejay's perspective is somewhat understandable if you want to maintain pressure. I mean I was just thinking what the difference was between that and 6B > slight delay 22D, but like I said, the former is good against disruptors and maintaining pressure.
chzchan Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I actually forgot to think about IB. With all the hits that 421D > 236D deals, you are essentially feeding your opponent heat if you do that in pressure.
Kiba Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Yeah, it's pretty easy to IB. You''ll be putting yourself in the RPS game again really. With regards to using it for oki, I haven't thought about doing that, ever. I think you're better off with using the 22[D] > 6C > Delay 421A. You save charge.
Airk Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Unorthodox pressure: Stuff like, charge cancel pressure into IAD j.C, or you could do something like 5C > 5D, then micro dash 5C after 1.5 seconds to score counter hits (corner only). It doesn't work against those who are mashing after the 5C and there has to be some conditioning to it. It's good because you can see how the opponent reacts and act accordingly. This would really only apply to characters that can't get out of pressure such as, Valk. If a Tsubaki tried this tactic against me, I'd just super jump > 7D and wolf out of there.Quick question - if VALK can super jump out of this, why can't anyone? I mean, yes, he has the movement to get away aftewards, but can't the entire cast except for Tager do superjump > Forward air dash and get out of the corner, at least?Edit: Also, even if your opponent IBs 421D>236D you're STILL +3, and it's not really much of a guessing game unless they have a reversal.
chzchan Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Yeah, it's pretty easy to IB. You''ll be putting yourself in the RPS game again really. With regards to using it for oki, I haven't thought about doing that, ever. I think you're better off with using the 22[D] > 6C > Delay 421A. You save charge. I do 6B > 421A instead for reasons I have explained before, but yeah you're right about not wasting 2 charges.
Kiba Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Yeah I read the explanation you gave on that. That could work too. Quick question - if VALK can super jump out of this, why can't anyone? I mean, yes, he has the movement to get away aftewards, but can't the entire cast except for Tager do superjump > Forward air dash and get out of the corner, at least? Edit: Also, even if your opponent IBs 421D>236D you're STILL +3, and it's not really much of a guessing game unless they have a reversal. Yeah, pretty much everyone can do that. The difference here is it's easier to catch players who super jump and air dash than it is to catch Valk. You could use like super jump j.AA against the air dashers, although you'll have to be quick about it. It's pretty much impossible to catch Valk using sj > 7D > w/e unless for some reason you use 623C (lol) before he wolfs out of the corner. The same applies to Hazama since he can send himself to the other side of the stage and you don't really want to play neutral against him. Not too sure about Rachel because I'm not sure her using wind to fly to the other side and throw lobelias down is effective for her, because you can just catch her again. Errol (or another Rachel) I'm sure may be able to shed more light on this if he feels like posting lol. It's up to them to decide whether jumping out, blocking, or mashing is the best option, and in the case where they don't try to jump out, it could work. You have options against all 3 of those anyway. Now, if you're you're playing against is a disruptor, then I wouldn't encourage the use of this. I don't use this against Mu-12 / Nu-13 and I think you guys know why. The neutral game against them is hard, so when it comes to pressure / mixup I'll be focusing more on using faster methods. You can opt to use the 5C > 5D > micro dash against players who are content in blocking, or some of the balanced type characters since there isn't a great fear if they return to neutral. I'm not saying you have to use it btw, I'm just giving a suggestion as to the type of varied pressure you can inflict at times, although not completely effective.
chzchan Posted October 27, 2014 Posted October 27, 2014 I've been trying out some unconventional resets using Mugen recently. I actually stumbled upon this by accident online after messing up a Mugen combo and dashing up to the opponent instead of doing my inputs correctly. I thought, huh, Mugen lets you out of superfreeze 3 frames before your opponent is able to move and turns the recovery of any move you cancel out of into 0+7 after taking a look at the frame data. So what I have been practicing is using Mugen out of not so great confirms like 2B or 5A/2A (sometimes 6A) after I have reached 5CC or really any time. You have to do it fast, but if you activate Mugen, you can just dash up and start running your stuff. So far, I have found that out of 5CC > Mugen, you have enough time to run up and purple grab the opponent without fear of DPs or reversals. This means you can slightly delay the grab to get yourself a green grab. Kara grab works even better. I have been having some good laughs with this because people expect some big damage Mugen combo, but I just grab them instead and do even more damage than I would have out of the original confirm I landed. It works really well, especially when the opponent trusts that you will do a combo if Mugen activates. If your opponent gets too used to the grabbing, then you can go for safe TRM setups thanks to how safe you are when you dash in. Since you are in Mugen and the opponent hopefully knows that you landing in one hit will probably deal a bit more damage, it gives you a psychological edge if you just end up pressuring them or trying to mix them up instead of going for the grab. You also have the ability to do infinite D specials in pressure as well. If you do get in the grab, even with 1 stock at the beginning of Mugen, you will still be able to do 421D > 236D out of the grab while in Mugen which leads to some pretty great damage. If you go for the mixup and don't get a confirm within the first couple hits, you have enough Mugen bar to do 421D > 236D on the opponent to stay on them and continue pressure. 5A > 5CC > Mugen > Dash 5A > 5BB > 2BB > Mugen > Dash 2BB > 5BB > Mugen > Dash 6A > 5CC > 6BB > Mugen > Dash Stuff like this. The closer you are left to the opponent the better because every frame counts. Grab > 421D > 236D > 6CC > 214B > 623C > j.236A > j.214A Simple combo out of 1 dingle. Nets 4197 damage and 30 heat. Grab > 421D > 236D > 6C > CT > 6B > 623C > j.236A > j.214A If you have at least 53 heat, you can use the heat you gain during the combo to throw in a CT to deal a bit more damage if you really only have 1 dingle. Gets you a whopping 4650 damage, but only 3 heat in the end. Grab > 421D > 236D > 22[D] > 6CC > 623C > j.236A > j.214A This one needs just slightly above 1 dingle, so I'm going to say 1.25 dingles. Nets 4544 damage and 33 heat. Grab > 421D > 236D > 22[D] > CT > 6CC > 623C > j.236A > j.214A Same here, you can just throw in a CT using the combo's massive heat gain. Still need at least 1.25 dingles for the 22[D] to happen. Need minimum 54 heat, but you get 5121 damage and 4 heat gain out of this one. Grab > 421D > 236D > 22[D] > 6C > CT > 6B > 623C > j.236A > j.214A Yet another one, but this one has no heat requirement. You need exactly 50 for Mugen and you're home free because you get exactly 25 heat from doing the combo up till you need to use the CT. It does slightly less damage than the one above at 5034 and you get 3 heat instead of 4 at the end. Grab > 421D > 236D > 623D > j.236D > j.214D > 6CC > 623C > j.236A > j.214A Here's another out of 2.25 dingles. Nets 5172 damage and 36 heat. More heat is attained in both combos when compared to the conventional Grab > Mugen combos because the heat gauge cooldown happens for the duration of the grab rather than for the duration of 421D > 236D. Also the grab's heat gain is not affected by the cooldown, so you get more heat out of this than anything else. Probably a waste of resources to take a risk to deal more damage out of a bad confirm, but I'm having fun with dirty tricks like this. All of this really comes from my desire to get more out of a jab than ~1.6k and a sliding knockdown, even if I have to do something that has a chance of not working in order to do so.
chzchan Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Apparently j.236D > j.214D has projectile invuln. I just pulled a DP on a Plat who had a super present right on top of her and I Air Aura'd right through the present's two part activation and was able to confirm the DP without getting hit. I'll go over the replay in a bit to really see if it happened the way I think it did, but I think the wiki should be updated.
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