[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Nakkiel]

So you can be strong and have tools for everything without having lopsided matchups? In a game where there exist characters who aren't and don't? I am not sure I am convinced.

Of course, if you ask LK, she's terrible, so whatever. :P

It's not a hard concept. Being an incredibly well-rounded character =/= lopsided match ups. Anyways, if you want to say whack shit about my character, take it to her forums at this point before we clutter this thread.

[Eshi]

So you can be strong and have tools for everything without having lopsided matchups?  In a game where there exist characters who aren't and don't? I am not sure I am convinced.

Lopsided, aka severely disadvantaged, match-ups exist when characters with a huge weakness in one area play against character with that as a huge strength. Example: Nu-13 is not a strong character with tools for everything, but she destroys Tager because his main weakness is her main strength and Lambda 5D eats spark bolt. For well-rounded characters, their strength is that they have no weakness. This only creates lopsided match-ups when all of their tools are too strong (CP1.0 Koko).

 

EDIT: For the record, I'm assuming that lopsided = worse than 6-4.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, it's more about their tools preventing them from getting automatically shut out by other characters.

[TheGreatReptar]

Extend Ragna always pops into my head as the prime example of top tier without lopsided matchups. 

[TeeJay]

So... is 5a>5B>6B the stable of your pressure to keep people from mashing? Useful on Tager? I have a habit of locking people down with 5B (D) then dashing to whatever I want to do so I wonder if the aforementioned string and 5B 6B, 5B 22B/D compliments that well enough. I have a bad habit of predictable 5C cancels so I'm always trying to develop more innate variety. I'm sadly quite a minimalist regarding fighting games so I try to keep things simple and effective with subtle variations-- I can't pull out all the tricks at once but most incorporate them throughout a match. I wonder who else is like that?

 

I suppose 5a 5B 6B>6BB or 5B 6B>6BB is strong off frame traps if you have 2 charges already for easy 3-3.5k. 

[Airk]

I wouldn't do 5B > 6B on Tager; He can 360A it.  Actually, you kinda can't pressure Tager at all - just run away, get all the stocks you can, and try to convert a poke or something into damage, repeat.

 

5B > 6B is okay on other characters, but don't get predictable.

[TeeJay]

I wouldn't do 5B > 6B on Tager; He can 360A it.  Actually, you kinda can't pressure Tager at all - just run away, get all the stocks you can, and try to convert a poke or something into damage, repeat.

 

5B > 6B is okay on other characters, but don't get predictable.

Yeah, I mostly follow Kiba's guide regarding Tager. 

[Airk]

Right; Well, anyway, 5B > 6B is more useful if you also do BETTER frame traps.  Actually as an actual frame trap, 5B > 6B is kinda bad - the gap is pretty large, and you can actually trade with people mashing 5F jabs (Though you'll get a CH knockdown out of it, you won't be able to follow up).  It's much more effective as a way to reset pressure using the +1 frame advantage you get from 6B;  So what you really need to do is represent some sort of delayed gatling frame trap after 5B to keep people honest.

[TheGreatReptar]

Tager can 360A 5B>6B but that doesn't mean you shouldn't/can't use it. You can do literally any other cancel option off of 5B (except 6C) and make it a tight frametrap, or jump away relatively safely. Pop Tager in the mouth a few times with slightly delayed 5CC (or 5C>5CC>OS 6C/5D) confirm combos and he's going to stop. 

 

You're looking at an RPS situation that's not exactly to your opponent's advantage considering the number of options you have. You're going to have to condition Tager to stop somehow, or you're not going to win. Tager's 360ing? Frametrap. 360ing the frametrap? Learn to frametrap better. Mashes everytime you 6A? Keep frametrapping until he learns. He stopped? Do things but throw some frametraps in too to make sure they respect you still and are scared to make the guess. Trying to play a poking game on him is silly since Tsubaki's pokes are mediocre and converting off of them can be hard at max range anyway.  You should probably hang back at the start of a round and build charge just to skew risk/reward in your favor, but I really don't like the idea of playing super passively in any matchup.

 

 

Now to answer your question TeeJay:

 

5B>6B is a decent check on people. It beats 6 frame jabs clean and will trade with 5 frame jabs. Trading with a jab is actually better than beating them clean oddly since you'll recover and be able to connect 5C instead of 5A on counterhit, which you can just OS the confirm for that since 5C won't come out after 6B in any other situation.  If you're predictable though, your 5B is going to get IB'ed and you're going to get smacked in the mouth, or the other person can just jump out, even on regular block. 5CC>6B is also a solid option, since 5CC has 2 more frames of blockstun so it'll not only beat Tager mashing 360A, but it'll catch jumpers too. Only problem with 5CC>6B is that the 5CC usually pushes you out too far to really take advantage of being +1.

 

Another strong tool you have to check mashing is 5C>delay>5CC. It takes a little practice to make sure the game between the 2 moves is small enough, but you can do fun stuff off it like option select 6C on hit and 5D/6B on block since 5CC only chains to 6C on hit. You just input 6C~5D or 6C>6B after 5CC to do it. 

 

You can delay pretty much any other string to create a gap just big enough for the other person to hang themselves too. 

 

Just don't be predictable. Resetting pressure with 5D can be mashed out of. Resetting with 6B can be fuzzy jumped off anything that isn't 5CC and depending on spacing can still lose to mashing. Vary things up. Throw in other frametraps into strings before trying to reset pressure. Just keep it varied 

[chzchan]

I never have much of a problem with mashing if people do mash while I am applying pressure. What I really can't deal with is people jumping out.

The 5B > 6B example is incredibly easy to jump out of even if they barrier the first hit. Is there any way to prevent people from jumping without IAD and hard calling it?

It takes many years to actually catch people and keep them on the ground where Tsubaki's main pressure game is and they are able to get out so easily without much effort or being forced to block any high/lows because they have such terrible range. The way to deal with Tsubaki pressure is barrier the first hit or two and then jump barrier. If you see Tsubaki charge cancel, all you need to do is jump. You can mix it up too because if Tsubaki tries to call out the jump out you can AA or DP her. Or you can just hang back and run away once the grab whiffs over your head.

As for Tager I just do lots of 5B > 6C because that is what I see other Tsubaki players do even though I don't really know how truly safe it is. I have also tried doing a lot of multi jump attack pressure using j.D in between jumping attacks to extend pressure while you are in the air so you can't be 360'd. It catches Tager players pretty often if they think you're going to hop to the ground and you j.D and stay in the air for a bit longer than they expected. I rarely see them using atomic collider while in pressure so you should be safe maybe.

[Airk]

The same frame traps that beat jabs and 360A will beat jumpouts, assuming you are in range.  There's 4 frames or so of startup on jumps.

[zaeris]

You just use a tighter frame trap or 6c since it's verticals hit box does catch air borne target. Of course it's all rock scissor paper.

[chzchan]

Assuming you are in range is the key thing though.

[zaeris]

Assuming you are in range is the key thing though.

sometimes you just play the anti air game, where it could be 2c, air grab, Ja.jb.

To me it's just litchi who has a lot of air option in which you don't want to play that game. Which is one of the match up where her being in the air is an advantage.

[chzchan]

You just use a tighter frame trap or 6c since it's verticals hit box does catch air borne target. Of course it's all rock scissor paper.

That can be prevented by jump barrier. I wish the gap between 5C/5B > 6C was only 3-4 frames. Maybe that's one of those incredibly subtle changes in the loketest that nobody noticed that was given to 6C in exchange for its jump cancellability on block.

Aside from 5BB(delay), all of these frame traps that can be used to catch jump startup move you farther away from your opponent.

[zaeris]

Maybe I don't worry too much if they air barrier because air guard does leave them in longer block stun compare to ground block perhaps a good follow up would be jd jc lol. Well what about 5b delay 2bb 5c dp whiff, is there enough range in that?

[Airk]

That can be prevented by jump barrier.

 

6C will 'lose' to air barrier, yes, in the sense that they will block it, and since it is so damn negative, they will probably be plus on you even after they land.

 

OTOH, any tight frame trap will kill them in jump startup where they can't barrier.

[Monarch]

So uh, what ever happened to Shino's Tsubaki? Did he go back to Noel? I thought he was pretty solid.

[Kiba]

Yeah, I mostly follow Kiba's guide regarding Tager.

 

I'll slightly modify it to include some points TGR made. Main thing is that you don't wanna be too passive (anymore can be discussed in MU thread).

Thanks.

 

 

So uh, what ever happened to Shino's Tsubaki? Did he go back to Noel? I thought he was pretty solid.

 

Believe he's gone back to Noel.

[Kiba]

Right so I figured than rather be complaining about the stuff struggles with or doesn't have, why don't we talk about something a little more positive? Tsubaki has a lot of tools which are good to use against any character, whether it's her command grab, making people mash with her charge cancel pressure and frame traps, or even her DP which is pretty much a nuisance for everyone because of the followup options. She may not be as strong as most other characters but she certainly has tools to contend with him, even if the matchup isn't in her favour. Speaking of matchups, it's been years and I feel that most of us have a pretty good understanding of Tsubaki's capabilities in her matchups. Why not go through a general matchup breakdown.

 

 

The Disruptors.

These characters generally have a gamplan which stop Tsubaki from doing what she does best.

Bang hits harder than us, his pressure is difficult to deal with and his neutral with his nails disrupts Tsubaki's main gameplan (charging). Irresponsible use of the nails makes the matchup easier for us, but it can be rare to be in that situation unless you are seriously playing cat and mouse. Fireballs and psycho crusher can be useful but I feel like due to startup you'll get hit out of it most of the time. Don't really see anything that we have on top of Bang you know, he's just annoying lol. 6-4 probably?

Kokonoe has too many tools to deal with most if not all Tsubaki's options in neutral. She ways good ways to stop you charging and cover her approach,she has ways to stuff your approach, and she has ways to stop you for going for the DP when you're on the defensive. Even if her mixup is a little mediocre outside of when her specials are in play, she can just push you out and do whatever she wants.

Nu-13 and Relius have multiple ways to stop Tsubaki from charging and getting in even though her dash speed is quite good. Neutral is rough against Relius because the doll hurts our approach too. Relius on his own is still quite decent, since his normals and specials give him time to stall with his mixup to allow Ignis to recover and start all over again.

 

With these type of characters you generally want to be because once they start rolling their dice it can be difficult to get around it. With Kokonoe and Nu-13 you will have some time to charge in small bursts, but with something like Bang or Hazama you have to be more cautious. These characters are some of Tsubaki's real bad matchups.

 

The Aggresors

What these characters want to do is to get in asap, but unlike the above you have tools of your own which can be pretty useful.

Valkenhayn is another character like Kokonoe who has methods to stop approach (although not as solid), and his pressure/mixup is a pain to deal with, but you do have your DP and your fireballs to prove a nuisance for him. The DP is also a life saver mentally because Valk players often like to shy away from Tsubaki on her wakeup because of that option. Your normal pokes are pretty much useless here so you may have to rely on dash speed and gimmicky stuff. Some of this holds true for Taokaka too.

Ragna is another. His normals have more priority than ours (particularly 5B in neutral) and his DP often makes us less aggressive with pressure. If he does get in he'll be a pain to get off. He also outdamages us, and his dash speed isn't too bad to get in onto us.

 

With these it's about trying to use mainly the fireball to disrupt their approach but it may not be effective all the time. It's just about picking the right time to attack and not give them easy access in otherwise you'll be in a trouble of trouble. Persistent movement is also a necessity here. These matchups are also quite bad for Tsubaki

 

You also have the matchups where you can take advantage of other characters.

Tager is a culprit. His slow speed allows you to fully charge and use that to your advantage. Another is Azrael. Even though Azrael can outdamage us, the fireball still slows him down and gives you chances to charge. If you let Azrael get on top of you with no charge you'll gonna have a lot of difficulty.

 

So overall Tsubaki isn't too bad. One of the things that let me down in particular are some of her normals y'know, whether they're slow or lack range. Her damage is understandable because the charge elevates her damage, and as I said she does have some stuff to really back her up. Fun, but requires a lot of work you know.

[chzchan]

Right so I figured than rather be complaining about the stuff struggles with or doesn't have, why don't we talk about something a little more positive? Tsubaki has a lot of tools which are good to use against any character, whether it's her command grab, making people mash with her charge cancel pressure and frame traps, or even her DP which is pretty much a nuisance for everyone because of the followup options. She may not be as strong as most other characters but she certainly has tools to contend with him(probably them), even if the matchup isn't in her favour. Speaking of matchups, it's been years and I feel that most of us have a pretty good understanding of Tsubaki's capabilities in her matchups. Why not go through a general matchup breakdown.

 

 

The Disruptors.

These characters generally have a gamplan which stop Tsubaki from doing what she does best.

Bang hits harder than us, his pressure is difficult to deal with and his neutral with his nails disrupts Tsubaki's main gameplan (charging). Irresponsible use of the nails makes the matchup easier for us, but it can be rare to be in that situation unless you are seriously playing cat and mouse. Fireballs and psycho crusher can be useful but I feel like due to startup you'll get hit out of it most of the time. Don't really see anything that we have on top of Bang you know, he's just annoying lol. 6-4 (probably 16/-6) probably?

Kokonoe has too many tools to deal with most if not all Tsubaki's options in neutral. She ways (probably has) good ways to stop you charging and cover her approach,(space here) she has ways to stuff your approach, and she has ways to stop you for going for the DP when you're on the defensive. Even if her mixup is a little mediocre outside of when her specials are in play, she can just push you out and do whatever she wants.

 

Pretty good, but I showed places where it needs cleaning up. They were all just small word placement errors and formatting errors except for the part where you wrote about Bang only being 6-4 unless that was supposed to be a joke. If that was the case then it was pretty funny.

 

Actually there is one thing that I would like to contest and it has to do with Azrael. I'm pretty sure I brought this up before in the Azrael matchup subforums, but letting him get even one stock of Phalanx significantly changes the fight for you. Also loss of the ability to do j.236A and 421A oki in the corner is a big hit and makes you super reliant on resets and other gimmicks, or at least that's how it feels for me. I hate knocking down Azrael because you have to hard call out his options or else he gets out pretty easily. You know, wakeup backdash beats meaty, wakeup sentinel/jump beats grab/command grab, mashing 5A punishes us trying to call his backdash, 2C punishes us trying to call out fuzzy jump really hard. You also have to bait growler on top of all that. It is not fun to fight him. I never feel like I have the upper hand even if I have momentum.

 

Our DP is pretty great at getting out of his blockstrings because they are not airtight. It is just really scary having to watch out for his 5D.

[TeeJay]

I don't think Kiba is joking about his assessment of the Bang matchup. 

 

I've beaten some Azrael players while giving him stocks. I think it depends on how patient you can be. Sometimes I'll banana super just to get in, though I know it's not reliable. It's super risky but in situations where you can end a round quickly or get an upper-hand, it's not too bad.  I've definitely both gotten lucky (had success) and gotten bodied doing it. 

 

This one bang player was driving me nuts with his drive though I started to open him up by just using 2BB starters on his wakeup and one about 5-6 straight against him. I haven't played too many Bang players or high level Bangs. I guess i was scared out of using 5BB.

[chzchan]

Oh I have no problem with punishing his drive because you just need to slightly delay your gatlings. I just get too frustrated before he runs out of nails. I have never beaten a Bang that has more than 0 nails. This is really just me, though. I was also just joking, haha.

 

It feels like 100/-90 at the beginning of any round against Bang.

[Kiba]

Actually there is one thing that I would like to contest and it has to do with Azrael. I'm pretty sure I brought this up before in the Azrael matchup subforums, but letting him get even one stock of Phalanx significantly changes the fight for you. Also loss of the ability to do j.236A and 421A oki in the corner is a big hit and makes you super reliant on resets and other gimmicks, or at least that's how it feels for me. I hate knocking down Azrael because you have to hard call out his options or else he gets out pretty easily.

 

Regarding the j.236A and 421A corner oki, the same holds true for Hakumen and Tager. You'll just get standard oki which you'll have to work with. Perhaps use > 22 > 5C > 2C > j.C > j.236A > j.214A and make them tech in the air. I have been doing this against characters which are difficult to deal with on their neutral tech and it's not bad at all. You can see Konan do this in some of his matches. Side note, > 22B(w) (on airbourne opponent) > 421A corner oki isn't effective against most of the cast. In fact I don't even think 421A is useful unless you use 22D > 6C > 421A.

 

Now, against Azrael, if I had to choose out of using j.236A to gain charge and give Azrael a fireball, or charge in bursts and keep retreating playing another game, I'd choose the former. I can't emphasise how much charge is extremely important in this matchup. I've played some pretty good Azraels and I've found this method to be the most effective. By the time he has the fireball, you should already have some charge, and you need to make the decision whether to go on the offensive or play a little passive in the hope that he uses it and it whiffs, or is blocked.

 

Like, you can avoid the j.236A, but then you don't seem to have a way to stop him getting in (remember gustaf is the main issue here). It's easier for him to move around.

[TeeJay]

Kiba-- I like these categories and they give a much broader approach to match ups. Please add Mu somewhere haha. I am trying to figure out if there is another category to consider. Jin, Bullet, Makoto, Tsubaki, Terumi (though he is aggressive) etc may be in that neutral area.

 

I like to approach Azrael like guerrilla warfare (no pun intended). I go in ham in flourishes while also playing tease and keep away the rest of the time.