About Creativity

[Rhiya]

Well, you started off with a really sunshiny, happy OP that was too optimistic about the level of variety in what you can do in a fighting game. That, in itself, wasn't bad. I'd argue a little misguided, but not bad.

Then Akira-Shiro threadjacked hard with the worst post of the year.

[St1ckBuG]

lol stickbug hush,, that was well over 4-5 months ago. I grab myself,, an OS'ing helps when trying to be grab baited IE jins 6b. Soo please dont talk to me unless you kno me please dont make false descriptions of me beacuse unfortunately u dont kno me

You were a very timid/soft spoken/quiet short black kid who didn't understand how the brackets worked. That's all I really remember about you.

[Sophisticat]

Well, you started off with a really sunshiny, happy OP that was too optimistic about the level of variety in what you can do in a fighting game. That, in itself, wasn't bad. I'd argue a little misguided, but not bad.

It is limited when speaking of games like SFIV and perhaps BB. The play is more structured, yes. This is less the case for, say, GG and SF3 where the system allows more freedom.

Besides, this thread was about the kind of ingenuity players come up with, not the inherent (im)possibilities of the system. But I digress.

Then Akira-Shiro threadjacked hard with the worst post of the year.

I cannot help but disagree. He had an interesting perspective and is one of the best players I know. He did nothing but state his own view. I liked that it got people interested in the thread, but it turned out to be much more of a distraction than anything else. The derailing was not his fault.

Well, I'll leave it at that. Not much point in going further.

[Akira-Shiro]

SAY IT TO MY FACE NIGGA

i truly do not know... but the amount of stuff i should do with carl vs what i do do,, that gap is just to big. My carl is far from being my best.. Its just (No offence) yall cant block,, or yall get confused when fighting stuff. Cause i always mess up & yall get hit by some random ada move.. and i just try to optimize my hitconfirm. But i do have a few characters who i believe are a cut above the rest of mine. Jin, Noel, Valk, Mu, Lambda, Litchi, Tager, & Plat.. i guess you could say carl to. but i wouldnt

[Rhiya]

It is limited when speaking of games like SFIV and perhaps BB. The play is more structured, yes. This is less the case for, say, GG and SF3 where the system allows more freedom.

Besides, this thread was about the kind of ingenuity players come up with, not the inherent (im)possibilities of the system. But I digress.

The thing is, the set of all of the actions you can make in a fighting game is the set of all the actions allowed by the game. There isn't anything to "made up," per se -- it's more like things are discovered.

Even the most ingenious moves performed inside a game were always moves available to be performed. That's why I see playing fighters more as choosing one of the right actions for a situation, and less as creative acts of making strategies, tricks, and deceptions.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[Spirit Juice]

Akira-shiro, you're not allowed to post in this thread anymore. Any further posts will be deleted. Anyone that further discusses Akira's posts from this point on will have their posts deleted.

Please focus on what the OP was originally going for.

[Sophisticat]

Hmm... Alright. There is some good stuff in here.

But I'm still pissed, and I spent too much time on this since I have a final first thing tomorrow. I'll get back to it later.

For now, this is where we're at:

Basically, assuming you have a pool of players of equal strength, all using characters of equal strength, then what is the defining element that would make a small set of players consistently place at the top?

For example, it could be... :

- Better reaction speeds.

- Better analysis of the other guy's habits.

- More experience/play time.

- Better blocking abilities (à la Spark)

Etc., you get the point.

Now, of course characters aren't of equal strength. This is why we have tiers and matchups. When you say a matchup is 6-4, then the "6" character has a competitive edge over the other character for X and Y reasons. So, tiers are about character edges. This is fairly straightforward once the game has been out for a while; tiers don't move much.

My original intent with this thread was to talk about the player edge, and how it interacts with the chosen character.

So let's say you pick a really shitty character. This means your competitive edge has to be really good to beat the top tiers, right? If you're a phenomenal player, then this can be done. You have X and Y element that makes you a cut above the rest.

The question is, what is this element? Coming back to my OP, I assumed creativity. Perhaps that's my edge? I don't even know what my own edge is actually, lol.

Hope it's clear now. This should be much more conducive to discussion. :P

Anyway, I ask of everyone: what is your edge? Do you even know it?

Edited December 19, 2011 by Sophisticat

[Lord Knight]

Basically, assuming you have a pool of players of equal strength, all using characters of equal strength, then what is the defining element that would make a small set of players consistently place at the top?

For example, it could be... :

- Better reaction speeds.

- Better analysis of the other guy's habits.

- More experience/play time.

- Better defence (can block everything à la Spark)

Etc., you get the point.

Now, of course characters aren't of equal strength. This is why we have tiers and matchups. When you say a matchup is 6-4, then the "6" character has a competitive edge over the other character for X and Y reasons. So, tiers are about character edges. This is fairly straightforward once the game has been out for a while; tiers don't move much.

My original intent with this thread was to talk about the player edge, and how it interacts with the chosen character.

So let's say you pick a really shitty character. This means your competitive edge has to be really good to beat the top tiers, right? If you're a phenomenal player, then this can be done. You have X and Y element that makes you a cut above the rest.

The question is, what is this element? Coming back to my OP, I assumed creativity. Perhaps that's my edge? I don't even know what my own edge is actually, lol.

Hope it's clear now. This should be much more conducive to discussion. :P

Anyway, I ask of everyone: what is your edge? Do you even know it?

I just want to say, you shouldn't confuse "defense" with "blocking", a good defense is knowing how to get out of pressure safely, that includes using everything you have at your disposal.

[Sophisticat]

Are you insinuating Spark has poor defence? :P

I kid. I'll change that up asap.

[Lord Knight]

Nah, more like he has good defense, but it's not because he just blocks.

[Nakkiel]

There are a finite amount of things you can do in FGs (or games in general actually where you cannot change the fundamental options and the number of them in the game). It's not an art-form, human creativity cannot shine through like it can in other things. Yes, you can be innovative and have your tricks but generally they wind up just being tricks. There will always be optimal options, optimal ways to play a match-up, etc.

Don't get me wrong, having creativity is great and is also a sign of being flexible, but if your playstyle and tricks aren't granting you victory, you need to change it or improve it. Optimizing your play and knowledge is the best and most effective way to do so. The best edge to have over your opponent is to be adaptable, and to learn fast, not creativity, imo.

[Fluck]

Are you insinuating Spark has poor defence? :P

I kid. I'll change that up asap.

Basically, literal blocking, even when you consider high/low/instant/barrier is only a subset of defence. You also need to know when to mash out of moves that reset pressure, tech throws, when to DP, when to backdash out etc.

[St1ckBuG]

There are a finite amount of things you can do in FGs (or games in general actually where you cannot change the fundamental options and the number of them in the game). It's not an art-form, human creativity cannot shine through like it can in other things. Yes, you can be innovative and have your tricks but generally they wind up just being tricks. There will always be optimal options, optimal ways to play a match-up, etc.

Don't get me wrong, having creativity is great and is also a sign of being flexible, but if your playstyle and tricks aren't granting you victory, you need to change it or improve it. Optimizing your play and knowledge is the best and most effective way to do so. The best edge to have over your opponent is to be adaptable, and to learn fast, not creativity, imo.

This.

If you're trying to dig so deep as to say really good players seperate themselves through 'creativity'... you're trying way too hard to break down BB (or fighting games in general).

[bakahyl]

Creativity is probably a thing that will sometimes work just a few times by suprise if you are fighting an opponent of an exact skill level who also knows your habbits . But most of the time it will backfire, because the character that you are using are either not optimal suited for that playing style or you are taking more risks than usual. In the end you will probably resort to your usual playing style, because the element of suprise will be gone and the opponent will also take your risky style of playing into account.

But i don't think using something remotely creative would win you matches that often if your character matchup is horrible, like 3-7 or something.

edit i agree with the previous posters that creativity are considered tricks and that adapting is a better solution.

I also think that there is not much that you can actually be creative about in blazblue. Most of the characters don't have a single role/type (every zoner can rush down although not equally as the pure rushdown characters and the defensive characters should be played aggresively in some situations)

So fighting an equally skilled opponent who actually knows your playing style probably already has taken into account what your character is capable of, including the riskier lesser used "creative" gimmicks.

Edited December 19, 2011 by bakahyl

[skd]

being creative and effective at high level play?

i dont really know, i mean at high level play(i think im good enough at the game to talk about this) i never think things are "random" or "creative". I think the best way to play is to be really confident in your judgment. If that involves unconventional solutions, who gives a shit as long as they work out. Personally, i have problems with this because im not well versed in the game, but if there is a very unconventional or unsafe seeming solution that may seem strange or even scrubby to some people, it could just good judgment.

Like, i remember hearing commentary that was surprised at me just dashing up and throwing against a low air neutral tech for a reset. Earlier, i punished an attempted mash out of the same reset with a meaty 6C (noellll). It also hits air unblock, making the only real way out on neutral tech neutral tech > barrier. I thought my opponent would read into me a little when it came to the reset in which i would expect some sort of back/forwards tech, so i decided that they would neutral tech again, but be ready for the 6C in case i did do it again. So in order to punish OS barrier and catch them by surprise, i ran up, stood there, and threw. It worked.

Was this being creative? I dont really think so. Its just trusting my thoughts. Was the solution really unsafe? probably, yeah.

But if you just trust in your judgment and do whats logical (you want to win, dont you?) you will make better calls as time goes on, probably making you a better player. If you think itll work, just fucking do it. Thats not being creative, its playing logically, even if logical is kind of fucked up for you

whenever i write up a post like this i feel really silly and scrubby

im not crazy guys

Edited December 19, 2011 by not_lunaris

[cookiehours]

being creative and effective at high level play?

i dont really know, i mean at high level play(i think im good enough at the game to talk about this) i never think things are "random" or "creative". I think the best way to play is to be really confident in your judgment. If that involves unconventional solutions, who gives a shit as long as they work out. Personally, i have problems with this because im not well versed in the game, but if there is a very unconventional or unsafe seeming solution that may seem strange or even scrubby to some people, it could just good judgment.

Like, i remember hearing commentary that was surprised at me just dashing up and throwing against a low air neutral tech for a reset. Earlier, i punished an attempted mash out of the same reset with a meaty 6C (noellll). It also hits air unblock, making the only real way out on neutral tech neutral tech > barrier. I thought my opponent would read into me a little when it came to the reset in which i would expect some sort of back/forwards tech, so i decided that they would neutral tech again, but be ready for the 6C in case i did do it again. So in order to punish OS barrier and catch them by surprise, i ran up, stood there, and threw. It worked.

Was this being creative? I dont really think so. Its just trusting my thoughts. Was the solution really unsafe? probably, yeah.

But if you just trust in your judgment and do whats logical (you want to win, dont you?) you will make better calls as time goes on, probably making you a better player. If you think itll work, just fucking do it. Thats not being creative, its playing logically, even if logical is kind of fucked up for you

whenever i write up a post like this i feel really silly and scrubby

im not crazy guys

You're not silly and scrubby. :/

Maybe a little crazy sometimes though. :P

And you have a good point.

[zeth07]

There are a finite amount of things you can do in FGs (or games in general actually where you cannot change the fundamental options and the number of them in the game). It's not an art-form, human creativity cannot shine through like it can in other things. Yes, you can be innovative and have your tricks but generally they wind up just being tricks. There will always be optimal options, optimal ways to play a match-up, etc.

Don't get me wrong, having creativity is great and is also a sign of being flexible, but if your playstyle and tricks aren't granting you victory, you need to change it or improve it. Optimizing your play and knowledge is the best and most effective way to do so. The best edge to have over your opponent is to be adaptable, and to learn fast, not creativity, imo.

Considering it is a fighting game, I would say being innovative with something or coming up with a trick/gimmick/setup is actually being creative within the context of a fighting game. Of course there's a limit put on the player due to there being a "system" you have to go by, but that doesn't mean there's no creativity at all or the things people can do within the game aren't creative. I would say that actually proves there is creativity because there is a limit to what you can do but finding new ways to use those things is entirely possible to a certain degree.

I guess it just sounds like you're being really strict in terms of what's "art" or being creative, cause some of the stuff people do in fighting games is pretty damn creative within the context of a fighting game. There's always a new setup/reset/gimmick or interesting combo or whatever, even if it's not practical it's still there and it's still creative. Some of those could in fact be practical even if it is just a one time use thing in a match or maybe even once in an entire set.

Just as an example, when Dora did the whiff command throw>web nail setup after an air ender in the corner, it's not something you'd automatically think of using, but it has practical application. That doesn't even have anything to do with a playing style, it's just using the tools given in a different way.

I'm sure everyone here has seen an interesting setup they've never seen before, whether you were just watching a match or maybe someone else did it to you in a match and you got hit by it. Someone had to have the idea of coming up with that setup, and they were creative enough to do it. Yes it could be a trick or gimmick, but if it works even once in a match and helps you win then it served it's purpose. Of course people can just do the optimal stuff and win, but that doesn't mean there aren't any tricks that could catch your opponent off guard to win a match. I almost think people take stuff like that for granted just because the majority of us are watching the Japanese matches and see everything before we even get our hands on the game.

Players don't NEED those things to win as I've said before, but just the fact that they are there and possible is what's good about it. Limiting yourself to just playing solid and using the typical stuff isn't a bad thing if it wins you matches. But it sure can't hurt to have something extra up your sleeve.

I kind of look at it like if you gave a bunch of painters 1 paint brush and only a few colors to use. Even though they are limited in their tools, each painters own creativity would make their paintings different in some way, even if they all use the same fundamental painting techniques or whatever.

But I don't know, maybe it's cause I play Bang and I feel like he's a character who can actually play in different "styles" depending on how you use his tools. FRKZ / Bumpers / "Normal" / A mix of everything, all of which still revolve around rushdown/mix-up. You can really see the difference when you watch certain Japanese Bang players. I guess other characters don't really have that option outside of a select few.

I guess it really just comes down to what each person thinks is creative.

[skd]

the example i used was a little bland, but if you want to do something really gimmicky to achieve a certain goal, its good. Its not creative or shitty or strictly for low level play. If i expect a crossup dp OS, i might do a triple crossup to punish it. If i think youre going to do a certain blockstring i can mash out of with this really situational reversal, ill mash out of it. As long as it makes sense. And if it makes sense and you lose, you need to make better choices. So you may ask, how do i make better choices?

1)Actually wanting to win?!

-What do i need to do to win? Mash? (#UnbanAkiraShiro) Double-Triple-Crossup into parry?

2)Knowledge/Familiarity with the game

-Will what im thinking of even work? What options does my opponent have?

3)Knowing your opponent.

-Will he expect me to take the safe route? What does he think im going to do?

4)Being fucking LOGICAL?! PLEASE?!

-HOW2THUNK. Why am i getting hit? Why am i getting mindfucked? Why am i not getting respect? Why am i getting mashed out? Why is my opponent doing double triple crossup parries and why am i getting my shit pushed in for such stupid shit?

Adapting in a nutshell.

So nowhere in that do i think creativity is a major tool in playing effectively.

Though I do take back what i said earlier, there are some creative things at high level play. But its just setups, gimmicks, tricks ( **** you lk >:c ). The reason behind the variance in playstyle of like, high level bangs for example is not lack of creativity but simply difference in judgment.

Gimmicks can be creative, but are simply a means to an end (which might even be achievable to someone without said gimmick). Good judgment is what makes a good player (on top of execution of course).

well, thats what i think of course. but who knows, im just some 12 year old kid who doesnt even own this game :v

i also might be slightly crazy. Blade 2.0?

why am i explaining this again?

[Sophisticat]

Lol, nice to see the thread's alive. I'll post up some tl;dr of my own in a couple hours with stuff I've thought about.

For now, I'll say that creativity was off-base to start the discussion. I was operating from my own context of things and didn't properly explain where I was coming from. My next post will hopefully clarify all that.

[Moy_X7]

Like, i remember hearing commentary that was surprised at me just dashing up and throwing against a low air neutral tech for a reset. Earlier, i punished an attempted mash out of the same reset with a meaty 6C (noellll). It also hits air unblock, making the only real way out on neutral tech neutral tech > barrier. I thought my opponent would read into me a little when it came to the reset in which i would expect some sort of back/forwards tech, so i decided that they would neutral tech again, but be ready for the 6C in case i did do it again. So in order to punish OS barrier and catch them by surprise, i ran up, stood there, and threw. It worked.

I don't believe that this is you being gimmicky or creative, that's just you yomi'ing the fuck out of your opponent. You adapted quickly it seems, good shit.

I actually do stuff like this from time to time. Examples are how it gets to a point where the opponent is trying to bait my reversals because I do them often whenever I have the meter to RC. Normally, you'd just sit there and block even if you think that you're going to get baited. I said "fuck it", read the bait, and threw the guy. Risky as hell since if he would have used a meaty normal, then that would have been 2-3K easy for him. Then again, I got 3.4K out of it (playing as Platinum). Sometimes you have to take unnecessary risks, go with your gut feeling, shit that just isn't expected. Do it once in a blue moon though because I'm pretty sure the opponent won't fall for the same thing twice (hopefully).

Edited December 19, 2011 by Moy_X7

[Star-Demon]

I think a large part of Creativity centers around the ability to avoid making mistakes or forcing (or allowing) your opponent to make a mistake. I think most games center around mistakes.

[skd]

i dont think the feeling should be "once in a blue moon ill wakeup whatever". It should feel right, you should do it because you know its going to work, not because you havent thrown it out in a while (if thats it, then i guess its ok but personally i dont believe that is very effective and a good enough reason to risk yourself. but then again, risk reward). A lot of people think like that (the "once in a blue moon" thing) and thats also something that i consider when i play someone. When i yomi stuff like that, it leaves people totally mindfucked. Its a lot more predictable than it seems. how yomiiiiiiiiiiii

and of course the game centers around mistakes haha.

i mean, if you want to call it creativity you can? sorta. I dont think so though, its just playing logically.

Edited December 19, 2011 by not_lunaris

[Moy_X7]

You know what? You're probably right, do what your gut tells you and if it fails then just think another step ahead next time. That's of course, considering the "risk/reward" factor.

[skd]

this is high level netplayer mentality lol

[zeth07]

i dont think the feeling should be "once in a blue moon ill wakeup whatever". It should feel right, you should do it because you know its going to work, not because you havent thrown it out in a while (if thats it, then i guess its ok but personally i dont believe that is very effective and a good enough reason to risk yourself. but then again, risk reward). A lot of people think like that (the "once in a blue moon" thing) and thats also something that i consider when i play someone. When i yomi stuff like that, it leaves people totally mindfucked. Its a lot more predictable than it seems. how yomiiiiiiiiiiii

and of course the game centers around mistakes haha.

i mean, if you want to call it creativity you can? sorta. I dont think so though, its just playing logically.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think you're looking at it from a different perspective compared to myself at least.

Using "unconventional solutions" doesn't really fit "playing logically" imo. Just because something worked, doesn't mean it was the "right" thing to do in a given circumstance which is really what it sounds like you're saying which is why I think it doesn't make sense.

A kind of random and horrible example would be if you watch gootecks / mike ross when they do those excellent adventures or whatever. You have gootecks who plays pretty much completely fundamental and never does anything crazy (playing logically), while Mike Ross plays kinda more open and does seemingly whatever he wants (playing unconventional). They can both do this because they have a complete understanding of the game. (Ignoring that it's netplay, just realize people do play differently since I've given numerous other examples anyway)

What makes fighting games fun, is the fact that people CAN play the game differently. You're given a set of tools, but how you use them is what matters and what determines your own playstyle.

If everyone just played logically, all the Bangs would just play like Minami, it's fine cause he plays solid, but that's not the only way to play the game even if it is effective. It just sounds like people are downplaying the "creativity" that's there because it isn't the basic fundamentals the core gameplay is about.