[AC+R] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Silmerion]

Oh, God, no! Not tier list discussion!

That's funny. I just talked to Ogawa today about tiers. After I won a game vs his Eddie, he came over and started saying how he thinks Faust is like A tier and that Eddie is garbage. He also said he thinks Zappa and Chipp are S tier. Of course these are just his opinions. I Haven't seen the new Arcadia btw.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

I don't see ZATO SAMA~ being Slash nerfed here (AKA overly shitty), so IMO Ogawa is just overreacting

[M.Song]

That's funny. I just talked to Ogawa today about tiers. After I won a game vs his Eddie, he came over and started saying how he thinks Faust is like A tier and that Eddie is garbage. He also said he thinks Zappa and Chipp are S tier. Of course these are just his opinions. I Haven't seen the new Arcadia btw.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Gawd I swear I'm seeing Nirvana when Zappa does that weird shit with his sword

Well, I'm exaggerating, but that shit's scary now.

I don't want to see how strong(er) he is with Raoh.

[Fenrir Werwolf]

zappa's sword looks so strong i dont know how some chars are supposed to deal with it

[TD]

l want to know what justice's mixup options are, seeing as she doesn't have the best movement or a command throw. the style looks interesting imo.

[TheRealBobMan]

Where do you guys even get this information? And how would you compare it to most normals or anything else in Guilty Gear? For example, Slashback. What kind of efforts are we looking at here? Or does it all come down to physical memory and remembering how someone plays?

Uh... I've looked into this quite a bit.

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/nov/15-the-brain-router-in-our-heads-processing-bottleneck

http://biology.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm

Important stuff to take away from these:

A) There is a difference between simple reaction time and recognition reaction time (like Teyah mentioned). Simple reactions are acting in response to a simple stimulus (ie, push a button when a light turns green). Recognition reactions have to do with differentiating between stimuli to react appropriately (ie, light turns green, push the leftmost button; light turns red, push the rightmost button).

B) Reaction to light stimuli is different from auditory stimuli. You react to sound somewhere between 140 -160 milliseconds. For anyone that can block a certain mixup in some random fighting game at home when they can hear the TV, but can't do it in a crowded venue at a tournament, this might be making the difference. Designers need to take this into account since it's boring to always have the same voice clips playing for moves, AND it gives away mixups if they're really distinguishable and trigger too early!

C) Simple reactions average about 200 milliseconds. Recognition average 380. Adding additional stimuli to account for in recognition adds about 40 milliseconds to reaction time.

D) Reactions are fastest at an intermediate level of arousal. Better learn to keep your cool during intense sets - I think Mihály Csíkszentmihályi's "Flow" says to keep your heart rate at around 140 and not go over for best effect.

E) Distractions are HUGE. If a stimulus is received within about 1/3 of a second of another stimulus, reaction time drops by an average of 174 milliseconds. A range of 100-500 milliseconds was given by the literature review I linked, but that data doesn't give a value for the duration of the delay (I pulled that from the discover magazine article). Also, it seems that people aren't aware of this delay happening at all, whereas with practice, a person can consistently figure how long it takes them to react to something when the delay isn't present.

So, what you can take away from this is - if you want to slashback, it's actually INCREDIBLY EASY under certain conditions, once you've practiced your timing. And by that I don't mean sitting in training mode trying to react to a move on time - I mean being able to simply push S+H within 2 frames of a move hitting - shouldn't be too hard if you're used to instant blocking, or difficult timing of another kind (1-frame links). If a move is so slow that it's easy to react to, there shouldn't be any problem - try Slashbacking Bandit Bringer, since it takes forever to hit you. Considering it's a lvl6 in +R, everyone might as well get used to this now, because you're going to need it! So long as you're not in the middle of trying to do something else, or you weren't blindsided (so you account for the psychological refractory period that I mentioned with distractions), it should be possible to be ready to push the buttons on time. It's training yourself to be ready to push the buttons that matters most. If you predict bandit revolver coming out, it's possible to IB the first hit and 6P through it between hits if your 6P is good, but if you're not ready, it's so slow in total active time that it should be possible to SB the last hit for a better punish than the free throw you get since it's -4. Or you'll get the ability to punish if they're out of range of a throw. Using the Bandit Bringer example again, it actually does get more difficult depending on the distance it's used from. It might cross you up, or hit early, or hit late, so that's the timing part you have to practice.

So think of it this way. If you're committed to blocking, and a really slow move comes out that you're able to recognize early enough (ie, it telegraphs early enough and you're used to the telegraph), you should be able to reactively slashback.

It should be possible to slashback moves that hit multiple times, even if you only had enough time to regular block the first hit. The only problem is being prepared to do so. Slashbacking ABA's air super is easy because of the super flash, but SBing the second hit of Sol's j.H is hard unless you know j.H is coming and are already blocking it when the first hit comes out. If you have to take the time to recognize the j.H hitting your block, it's too late to go for the SB on the second hit. Just make sure to account for the other player's meter. You don't want to get hit by Bandit Bringer > RC > airdash > j.P > j.D > Sidewinder loop like I did the other day when I slashbacked my friend's Bandit Bringer.

If you have to account for a vast array of possible high/low options, this slows your reaction time. You don't want to sit there on edge ready for everything and unable to react to anything, so you prepare yourself for what's coming. This is where memory comes in, and I'm sure most of you guys know what to do from here and don't need me explaining it.

As for distractions... this is probably why moves like Chipp's command throw or 6K ever hit (outside of doing his command throw when the other player is falling in from off screen and doesn't see it start). You're totally expecting a specific mixup or approach, since you pretty much have to work off of some prediction in order to react in time and hit him, and he does something totally different from what you were expecting. Then this blasted thing comes out that hits on frame 33 or whatever it is, and you can't hit the 5P button in time, or you go for the 1-frame jump out, but it's too late. Your brain was too busy calling the data on what mixup could possibly come from this thing you weren't expecting, when the stimulus for the command throw was given to you. Add 170 milliseconds for the mental refraction period to the average 380 for a recognition reaction, and you realize that 550 milliseconds is just barely long enough for Chipp to get away with this stupid bullshit once in a while.

Although, you'll probably be prepared for it if you're used to the matchup. It's honestly pretty cool that you can't hit Chipp out of it in +R, since now you have to dodge it or airthrow it. Makes it harder for the other player to accidentally beat it when expecting something else.

And then these 2 aren't as important to us, but it's sort of cool to know:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2010/02/02/tech-brain-action-reaction-speed.html

http://www.livescience.com/6041-reactions-faster-actions-study-finds.html

These are both about how people react about 21 milliseconds faster than they can act. For fighting games, this only about a frame, so it'll barely ever come up as something that can make a difference.

Hopefully I didn't make too many errors or assumptions with this. I've wanted to put some time into a serious writeup for dustloop, but I've been busy with work lately. I did a writeup for the Smash community years ago, but in retrospect it has errors (informational and writing), and it's catered to a different kind of player... I didn't want to simply repost that here.

[Rasec]

That's funny. I just talked to Ogawa today about tiers. After I won a game vs his Eddie, he came over and started saying how he thinks Faust is like A tier and that Eddie is garbage. He also said he thinks Zappa and Chipp are S tier. Of course these are just his opinions. I Haven't seen the new Arcadia btw.

Did Ogawa say anything about Shadow Weiss (old shadow) or it's usefulness or lack thereof?

[BladeOfJustice7]

Am I wrong in thinking Venom is kinda weak? He's the only one I haven't seen anything promising from since this game dropped in Japanese arcades.

[Adelheid]

Am I wrong in thinking Venom is kinda weak? He's the only one I haven't seen anything promising from since this game dropped in Japanese arcades.

He's fine.

[BladeOfJustice7]

He's fine.

OH wow ok, nvm. Could someone explain to me why they won't give Anji his old pre-AC 6hs back. Was it too autopilot/OP before or something. He looks good now, but his autoguard capacity seems to have diminished considerably in this iteration fo the game.

[SolxBaiken]

Am I wrong in thinking Venom is kinda weak? He's the only one I haven't seen anything promising from since this game dropped in Japanese arcades.

[Reinforcing] He's fine.

[ElvenShadow]

Justice - Yea missiles getting stuffed and going away on hit is pretty bad for Justice. Faust can just get at the right distance and easily stuff all missile attempts with standing slash. As for mixups, I don't really know what great mixups Justice has lol. I haven't gotten mixed up by her. She is just pure zoning and keep away from what it seems like. She does have some great pokes though. Until I fight someone who is better with her, I have to agree that she seems pretty weak compared to most characters.

Eddie Shadow Weiss - when I played against Ogawa he only used AC shadow. I didn't ask him if he thinks OG shadow is good or not but since I didn't see him use it you can take that information for what you will. I have seen other Eddies use it though from time to time.

Johnny - Up coin has a zillion great uses. Also, it is much easier for him to get you into knockdowns for mist setups and it is so hard to escape from. Maybe I just need to find better ways out but whenever I get put in the corner for mist unblockables I just get reset again into death. Gotta level up on this matchup in R.

Zappa - Yes, the sword is very very good. It goes almost full screen and just stays in your face. You really can't get through it easily and have to try to go over it to get to Zappa and it retracts pretty fast so getting in on Zappa with sword is a real pain. And all those orbs it gives results in lots of Raoh appearances. Ghosts are better too since the garbage they drop was buffed. Dog may not have unblockable bite now but the dog preassure is still extremely strong. Raoh was also buffed. Overall, Zappa is pretty powerful.

Chipp - I don't remember each change off the top of my head but he got new force breaks. I think faster teleport. Double find me. 6HS ground bounce leads to lots of combos. Overall combos seem better.

Venom - IMO he is pretty strong. I don't know why people would think he is weak

I think that covers replies to everyone

[Phrekwenci]

Ghosts are better too since the garbage they drop was buffed.

What was buffed with misfortune? Also ghost f5S was nerfed in terms of hitbox; it's noticeably shorter now and I can see a few Zappa players not accustomed to it yet. That and the dog bite nerf are the only things I'm not a fan of, everything else is pretty awesome.

[Silmerion]

OH wow ok, nvm. Could someone explain to me why they won't give Anji his old pre-AC 6hs back. Was it too autopilot/OP before or something. He looks good now, but his autoguard capacity seems to have diminished considerably in this iteration fo the game.

I can't speak to why they didn't bring back his pre-AC 6H, but Anji's autoguard capabilities are up quite a bit from vanilla AC: 6S, 5D, 3S, and FB Rin all got their AG frames increased. Also 6H can now be canceled into specials, which is a huge buff.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Also 6H can now be canceled into specials, which is a huge buff.

Yea I noticed that, did fuujin always have partial invincibility?

[Blade]

Article

Don't get me wrong, I've slashbacked before in matches, but it's knowing all that frame information or the changes (or even CALCULATING it) that makes my head spin. I could understand grabbing the frame data from an Arcadia Mook...but how do you guys figure it out for yourself just by looking at a Youtube video or equivalent?

I understand concentration and avoiding distractions as basics, but sometimes it feels like all that data means nothing if you're slow as hell on reaction, even compared to guys who can 1 frame jump (hell, I can't even comprehend FDC air floating).

[Dream Maker]

Yea I noticed that, did fuujin always have partial invincibility?

Yes for the HS version but it only became really powerful in AC because they boosted the invincibility frames a lot. It hasn't changed in ACR as far as I can tell.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Shit, is it me or Venom's ballz summoning became a bit faster? Or for some reason I see it became hella lot more annoying than before.

I hope his Carcass Raid and normal ball is just a bit easier to execute. Just to piss bitches off

[doragonkoroshi]

Blade, if you just look at when the move starts in a video, and count frame-by-frame until the move ends or hits, depending on if you're trying to determine startup frames or total frames, multiplying by 2 if the videos are running at half the frame rate of the game (30 fps instead of 60), you'll have your number within a couple frames.

Other stuff, yes the slower your reaction time is, the slower you will react to things, but with experience you can have a better idea of what to expect, and how to react which should make it easier to produce the desired response.

Fdc is pretty simple. When faust or chipp do j.2k, it changes their air momentum. There's also the fact that gg lets you cancel normals into fd in the first few frames, so that you don't have to press two buttons at the exact same frame, which would be really hard and cause you to get a lot of accidental normals when you were trying to block. So, when you fdc, a j.2k with faust or chipp, the momentum change has already taken place, but the actual attack animation has been canceled. Does that help?

[Rasec]

I'm sure Ogawa knows what he's talking about but from watching videos, Eddie sure doesn't seem like he is "garbage" as Ogawa put it. Maybe a remark made out of frustration from losing to a "gaijin" ?

[ElvenShadow]

Honestly I think Eddie is still pretty good. I am sure that Ogawa was a little annoyed that he lost to me. He beat me the 2 or 3 times I played him before the one I beat him and then I didn't play against him again after that. I fought against Isa's Eddie a week ago and he was just absolutely beasting the shit out of everyone. I think I tried against him about 7 times but couldn't get a win.

[Vulcan422]

Shit, is it me or Venom's ballz summoning became a bit faster? Or for some reason I see it became hella lot more annoying than before.

I hope his Carcass Raid and normal ball is just a bit easier to execute. Just to piss bitches off

Probably just your imagination. Venom is so fucking fun to watch in the hands of a good player.

[TheRealBobMan]

As far as slashbacking goes, I'm more comfortable trying to do that than instant block right now, since I have limited experience with a stick, and am more comfortable hitting the buttons when I want than trying to engage the stick at the right time (especially blocking high/low). I got the mechanical timing down during my Melee days - I used to play pong with myself by powershielding Falco's laser using a controller in each hand. Powershields in Melee have the same 2-frame window, but blocking has 5 frames of startup time or something stupid like that, so you have to do it early. It's just a matter of reacting properly for me, since I can get timing for that sort of thing really easily now.

Reaction time is something that can be practiced. Yeah, the electrical impulses in your nervous system can only travel so fast, but if you're reacting to frame 1 of a move, that's a lot more time than if you react to frame 8, and the move comes out on 20. That's the difference between "here's something I need to block" and "here's something I need to block high", or even "here's something I can VV" or "let's slashback this". Some moves just telegraph late and there's nothing you can do, and some are too fast to deal with, but moves like Bandit Revolver or Bandit Bringer are slow enough and telegraphed enough that one should be able to deal with them almost without exception. Assuming you're already blocking when Bandit Revolver comes out, you have enough time to say "hey, I should time a slashback on the last hit" and actually do it, regardless of what you were thinking when that move started. The problem is, a move like Axl's 6H is fast enough that a player wont be able to really go for specific punishes (like a Slashback > whatever) unless it's expected, and that expectation can be manipulated.

Knowing a bunch of numbers really doesn't help in and of itself. It's just that you can look at a move's data and say "Oh, this is frame 28? Why the **** haven't I learned to SB this on reaction yet?" and then proceed to try it until you can do it consistently. Or go "hey, this character almost always goes into this move during a block string for ____ reason, and it has 14 frames of startup (about 230 milliseconds right?). If I know the move is coming, and it telegraphs early enough, I should be able to slashback this on reaction, assuming I'm expecting it during the block string (simple reaction is only 200 milliseconds!). If the player stops using that move in the block string, I'm still just blocking, so unless a mixup is coming, I'm not risking anything just by being ready to slashback!"

[dehumanizer]

I've been looking at videos with Eddie and it definitely seems like he's still very viable. I think Eddie players are just frustrated with him losing a lot of his more crazy stuff (his unblockable puddle, 6p stun modifier, less little ed meter gain, etc...) without much to compensate back for it.

The nerfs were definitely necessary though and they make him a little more fun to play imo. I can't wait when +R gets released on consoles so I can flex my GG muscles